How shite is the prem these days?

[Danny]

11 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

While we're all right to bemoan the boringness of it, what's actually a bigger issue here is that the Premier League will have crowned City champions twice since levelling 115 charges at them for breaking the rules and City are yet to set foot in a courtroom to defend themselves. In the meantime, two other clubs have been fast-tracked (one of those twice) and Leicester have been pretty much told they'll have a points deduction next season when they come up.

It really shows who's governing things here. If the Premier League had an ounce of integrity they'd stop making excuses about how complicated City's case is because they broke 114 more rules than anyone else and get on with it. Start with charge 1 next week, if City refuse to turn up to the hearing then they get sanctioned. The case isn't going to get any less complicated the longer they wait. Get the fuck on with it. And if it's that complicated to do it as one case then offer to have 115 different hearings for them and see how they like the threat of having to fight each one in the courts with a constant drip feed of points deductions over several seasons ruining their chances in the league.

City literally took them to court multiple times in the build up to this...hence the complications

[RandoEFC+]

40 minutes ago, Danny said:

City literally took them to court multiple times in the build up to this...hence the complications

You know what I mean though. Their actual hearings haven't started.

[Danny]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

You know what I mean though. Their actual hearings haven't started.

Because City took them to court multiple times to prevent it from starting

[Spike]

It’s about the same.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003–04_FA_Premier_League

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023–24_Premier_League

 

[Stan]

25 minutes ago, Spike said:

It’s about the same.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003–04_FA_Premier_League

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023–24_Premier_League

 

In what sense?

[Michael]

The Prem has been as exciting as it has ever been this year. The title is essentially going down to the last day of the season, even though it would take almost a miracle for Man City not to beat West Ham at the Etihad this weekend, given what's at stake and how Man City have been playing. I've really been impressed with Arsenal, Rice and Odegaard in that midfield is just a joy to watch and they are so strong in other areas of the pitch as well. Chelsea are finally gaining form and playing like they should be playing after a disastrous season overall by their standards. I've enjoyed watching the Premier League this season.

[Stan]

17 minutes ago, Michael said:

The Prem has been as exciting as it has ever been this year.

Ever? Not sure about that. 

[OrangeKhrush]

VAR has hurt the premier league

[Michael]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Ever? Not sure about that. 

Come on you know what I mean, I think most people will say it's been exciting. We've had a title race go down to the last day of the season and we've generally had some very entertaining matches being played. Of course this is all subjective, but most football fans I've talked to tend to have a similar opinion to me. 

[Stan]

6 minutes ago, Michael said:

Come on you know what I mean, I think most people will say it's been exciting. We've had a title race go down to the last day of the season and we've generally had some very entertaining matches being played. Of course this is all subjective, but most football fans I've talked to tend to have a similar opinion to me. 

But you said it and I don't agree with it, that's all. There's been the most amount of goals in a PL season (I think), but I wouldn't call this the most exciting. 

It's probably been the most controversial and frustrating - VAR screwing teams over, PGMOL issuing apologies, calls to replay games, points deductions, points given back, more points deductions... 

[Reluctant Striker]

Villa are good example that can make the argument either way. In one sense, it was viewed as highly unlikely to impossible for them to get ahead of all of Spurs, Chelsea, Man United & to an extent Newcastle.

But, now they have, for this season at least, there is not really a pot of gold waiting. Stories still persist that even with Champions League football for next season, Villa may very well have to sell a big value player or 2. To balance the books. To bring in less proven replacements. Before taking on a Champions League campaign. And we have just seen the impact it's had on Newcastle. Who could miss out on any Euro football next season.

Many years ago Champions League football did start the ball rolling. When clubs, fans, players, owners were all onboard with finishing as high as possible. Even when any actual league title was gone for another season. We did get 'the big 4' of United, Chelsea, Arsenal & Liverpool. Then Man City & Spurs tagged in, to slightly different extents.

It will be interesting to see what comes of that new financial rule in a year or 2.

[Cicero]

19 hours ago, Danny said:

Personally I grew numb of this a long time ago, I would say when Chelsea first won the Champions League, that was a real turning point that showed that it didn't really matter if you had a historical pedigree in the competition (Liverpool, United) or no pedigree in it (Forest when they won, Villa when they won, Arsenal when they reached a final), what mattered is that you could bankroll your way to success regardless. It's very rare that you could see a team win the competition based purely on great coaching, scouting and academy intake.

And how's that working for PSG?

Took Chelsea 8 years to win the European Cup and City 14 years. Past 20 years those clubs have only won it 3 times compared to the other 17 that have historical pedigree in the competition. It's still a very prestigious and difficult competition to win despite being bankrolled. 

 

[Michael]

8 minutes ago, Stan said:

But you said it and I don't agree with it, that's all. There's been the most amount of goals in a PL season (I think), but I wouldn't call this the most exciting. 

It's probably been the most controversial and frustrating - VAR screwing teams over, PGMOL issuing apologies, calls to replay games, points deductions, points given back, more points deductions... 

You don't believe that it's been an exciting season? The fact that there's been so many goals adds to the excitement. It's been one of the most exciting season's in recent years in my book. You say VAR screwing teams over, but what about refs screwing teams over in previous years and at a much higher rate? The level of football has been good similar to other exciting seasons. Moreover, the fact that the title race has gone to the last day of the season, makes it more entertaining than last season for example. To call this Prem season "shite", is just delusion and hyperbole in my humble opinion.

[RandoEFC+]

3 hours ago, Danny said:

Because City took them to court multiple times to prevent it from starting

I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with my point .

My point is that, one way or another, the Premier League have allowed City to drag it out and obfuscate for so long that they will have crowned them champions twice before that process even properly starts. It's no good for the league and it leaves a massive asterisk hanging over everything that happens at the top end of the table until all the facts come out and we know whether or not, and how much, Man City have broken the rules and gained advantages they should never have had.

[Danny]

8 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with my point .

My point is that, one way or another, the Premier League have allowed City to drag it out and obfuscate for so long that they will have crowned them champions twice before that process even properly starts. It's no good for the league and it leaves a massive asterisk hanging over everything that happens at the top end of the table until all the facts come out and we know whether or not, and how much, Man City have broken the rules and gained advantages they should never have had.

Disagreeing. It's not that they've allowed anything. City have purposefully challenged multiple parts of the Premier League's charges to give them more time, the challenges have meant the PL are unable to do anything because they have had to wait for multiple court decisions.

[Stan]

51 minutes ago, Michael said:

You don't believe that it's been an exciting season? The fact that there's been so many goals adds to the excitement. It's been one of the most exciting season's in recent years in my book. You say VAR screwing teams over, but what about refs screwing teams over in previous years and at a much higher rate? The level of football has been good similar to other exciting seasons. Moreover, the fact that the title race has gone to the last day of the season, makes it more entertaining than last season for example. To call this Prem season "shite", is just delusion and hyperbole in my humble opinion.

No, you've twisted my words. I believe it's been exciting. Just not the most ever. 

I've not called it shite by the way. 

[Danny]

14 minutes ago, Stan said:

No, you've twisted my words. I believe it's been exciting. Just not the most ever. 

I've not called it shite by the way. 

Can’t believe you called it shite tbh

[Spike]

3 hours ago, Stan said:

In what sense?

The point spread is pretty similar up until the bottom teams.

[Rucksackfranzose]

8 minutes ago, Spike said:

The point spread is pretty similar up until the bottom teams.

If you're disregarding the gap between 1st and second spot at the older table you're indeed having a point here, after comparing them.

[Stan]

Didn't reply to the rest of your post...

1 hour ago, Michael said:

You say VAR screwing teams over, but what about refs screwing teams over in previous years and at a much higher rate?

VAR was brought in to stop refereeing mistakes and make sure there aren't any 'howlers' or embarrassing errors. If anything, it's scrutinised it so much that there are more mistakes and referee accountability has dropped. So just because referees screwed teams over in previous years doesn't mean that what we have now is any better, or makes what we used to have any better either.

1 hour ago, Michael said:

The level of football has been good similar to other exciting seasons.

How are you quantifying this, out of interest?

1 hour ago, Michael said:

Moreover, the fact that the title race has gone to the last day of the season, makes it more entertaining than last season for example.

And the seasons before?

Gone are the days where 3 teams take it to the final day, or relegation spots are fought between 3, 4 or 5 teams to avoid 18/19th etc on the final day too. Just because it's gone to the final day this season doesn't automatically mean the whole season has become the most exciting ever.

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying I found this season boring or 'shite'. Just that I don't think it's as exciting as some other previous seasons for instance.

[Michael]

16 minutes ago, Stan said:

No, you've twisted my words. I believe it's been exciting. Just not the most ever. 

I've not called it shite by the way. 

I didn't say it was the most ever either, just as good as it's been in other exciting seasons. I know you didn't call it shite, but I was referring to the question to this thread, as it is hyperbole in my opinion.

[Spike]

1 hour ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

If you're disregarding the gap between 1st and second spot at the older table you're indeed having a point here, after comparing them.

I think the competitiveness is about the same as it was but people have more issue with the tactical and strategical zeitgeist.

That was also an invincible season, I didn’t pick because of that, it’s just twenty years ago now.

[Michael]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Didn't reply to the rest of your post...

VAR was brought in to stop refereeing mistakes and make sure there aren't any 'howlers' or embarrassing errors. If anything, it's scrutinised it so much that there are more mistakes and referee accountability has dropped. So just because referees screwed teams over in previous years doesn't mean that what we have now is any better, or makes what we used to have any better either.

I definitely think VAR is an improvement. Sure there have been mistakes, but the fact that there are less mistakes with VAR, is a positive step in the right direction. It's been factually demonstrated that there have been less refereeing mistakes with the introduction of VAR, so how can that be something negative?

How are you quantifying this, out of interest?

With my eyes lol, it's a subjective opinion, backed by what I can see. Plus the introduction of better players into certain teams has also improved the level of play. Teams lower down the Prem table like your West Ham's or your Brighton's or your Wolves or your Brentford's are able to buy the calibre of players they would never have dreamt of buying 20 or 30 years ago. Like it or loathe it, the money in the Prem these days has helped to improve standards in general for obvious reasons.

And the seasons before?

Gone are the days where 3 teams take it to the final day, or relegation spots are fought between 3, 4 or 5 teams to avoid 18/19th etc on the final day too. Just because it's gone to the final day this season doesn't automatically mean the whole season has become the most exciting ever.

Now you are being silly and putting words into my mouth. I never said that this season was the most exciting ever. I said it has been as exciting as it has ever been, meaning it's been as exciting as previous exciting seasons in my opinion. This was the expression I used and already made it clear what was meant, so I don't know why you're trying to continue to frame what I said in a different way.

Furthermore, I disagree with your assessment that gone are the days that 3 teams take it to the final day of the season. If Liverpool didn't suddenly drop their form right towards the end of the season, it could have been 3 teams battling it out at the final hurdle. Maybe Klopp shouldn't have announced that he was quitting the club at the end of the season so early. Arsenal though in particular have really impressed me this season and they could very well have more luck next season and win the league. Man City are a great team in their own right, the quality that is displayed when they play is great to watch for all those who appreciate football. But they are not invincible, as we have already seen a few times this season. 

 

Edited May 16 by Michael

[Stan]

21 minutes ago, Michael said:

I definitely think VAR is an improvement. Sure there have been mistakes, but the fact that there are less mistakes with VAR, is a positive step in the right direction. It's been factually demonstrated that there have been less refereeing mistakes with the introduction of VAR, so how can that be something negative?

The way VAR is used is a negative. Look at how many decisions are being overly scrutinised. It's gone beyond what it was brought in for.

As for it being negative, I'm speaking on behalf of match-going fans. It's become a joke now for a) how long VAR sometimes takes to make decisions and b) the fact that fans in the stadium have never known what's actually going on. They don't hear anything about the decisions, they don't see what other officials are seeing at Stockley Park etc. As for celebrating goals, that's changed, too. Fans or players can't celebrate fully any more because VAR these days is going back so far sometimes. I think the main difference now is officials are actively looking and seeking out infringements or fouls as opposed to 'clear and obvious' things in build-up to goals. So yeah, it is something negative. 

23 minutes ago, Michael said:

With my eyes lol, it's a subjective opinion, backed by what I can see. Plus the introduction of better players into certain teams has also improved the level of play. Teams lower down the Prem table like your West Ham's or your Brighton's or your Wolves or your Brentford's are able to buy the calibre of players they would never have dreamt of buying 20 or 30 years ago. Like it or loathe it, the money in the Prem these days has helped to improve standards in general for obvious reasons.

Fair enough, money has improved the ability of mid- or lower-table teams to improve their squads. But money has also corrupted the sport and the PL beyond belief. And I don't think there's a way back from that. It's not competitive any more financially off the field, let alone on it.

24 minutes ago, Michael said:

Now you are being silly and putting words into my mouth. I never said that this season was the most exciting ever. I said it has been as exciting as it has ever been, meaning it's been as exciting as previous exciting seasons in my opinion. This was the expression I used and already made it clear what was meant, so I don't know why you're trying to continue to frame what I said in a different way.

Again, fair enough. But when you say it's exciting as it's ever been, that to me means you're saying it's on a par as the most exciting seasons. But we disagree on this point as I don't think it has been as exciting...

25 minutes ago, Michael said:

Furthermore, I disagree with your assessment that gone are the days that 3 teams take it to the final day of the season. If Liverpool didn't suddenly drop their form right towards the end of the season, it could have been 3 teams battling it out at the final hurdle. Maybe Klopp shouldn't have announced that he was quitting the club at the end of the season so early. Arsenal though in particular have really impressed me this season and they could very well have more luck next season and win the league. Man City are a great team in their own right, the quality that is displayed when they play is great to watch for all those who appreciate football. But they are not invincible, as we have already seen a few times this season. 

My point being, it hasn't gone to the final day of 3 teams, has it? You've added an 'if' there regarding Liverpool. Ultimately, they did drop their form, and it didn't go to the final day.

When was the last season that 3 teams did contest it out on the final day? 

Arsenal have impressed me too. It's good they've been able to take Man City all the way like Liverpool did a seasons ago. Man City also exquisitely good at times with how they can just brush away teams and up the gears when they want to. But it's not competitive or 'exciting' when they can do that all the time. 

[jtees4]

On 15/05/2024 at 05:42, MUFC said:

Being honest on 4 occasions it could have been different. Twice Liverpool took it to the last day and for 2 seasons on the bounce Arsenal have thrown it away.

TRUTH! And as an Arsenal supporter, I agree that Arsenal has thrown it away two years in a row. This year is worse, because Arsenal is a better team this year. But I'm American, what the hell do I know?