FINAL - Spain 2-1 England - Sunday 14th July, 2024

[Rucksackfranzose]

25 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

The England setup, of which Southgate has played a large part in overseeing, has caused a real change in the England setup and subsequent results. I don’t think any Premier League club gives a flying one about England and why should they?

The Sweden shouts make no sense. The bizarre belief from the ale chucking, Sweet Caroline singing, Sports Direct retro shirt wearing balloon knots that the only way to define success is by winning a trophy is, frankly, lunacy. To suggest the only way Southgate’s tenure will be deemed a success is whether he wins a trophy or not is bizarre. He’s genuinely overhauled the England setup and has instilled a level of commitment that was not seen for decades, with a squad that man for man was not close to the supposed “golden generation”. England pre-Southgate lose to Colombia in 2018, the draw to Tunisia in 2018, they probably draw to the Czechs as well and definitely don’t score an equaliser against Slovakia or win on penalties against the Swiss or come from behind against Holland. I think the England bandwagon has become spoilt, for the most part. England also get an absolute humping if they suddenly decided to go gung-ho against Spain last night too. 

Disagree on the bolded part, since you play tournaments to win them, the only way to be successful in them is by winning them. England are claimimg to be a big football nation, then fucking think like one, and leave that Olympic spirit "partaking is everything"  nonsense to football dwarfs like Bhutan, or Gibraltar.

Edited July 15 by Rucksackfranzose

[Smiley Culture]

13 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Disagree on the bolded part, since you play tournaments to win them, the only way to be successful in them is by winning them. England are claimimg to be a big football nation, then fucking think like one, and leave that Olympic spirit "partaking is everything"  nonsense to football dwarfs like Bhutan, or Gibraltar.

International tournaments are every two years, they’re hard to win. They’re not one of five competitions on offer year after year. 

[RandoEFC+]

Southgate has been able to bring good vibes and a sense of purpose to players who had lost their way, and made the England team more likeable to the public. He led the international team to the best results most current players had experienced in the England team when they got to the World Cup semi finals and that run instilled in them a sense of momentum, an upward trajectory, and the experience of actually doing quite well in a tournament. This all didn't exist under previous managers.

Southgate has taken England from an international side which had among the best selection of individual talent but were prone to getting knocked out by an "inferior" opponent and had absolutely no hope of beating anyone of actual quality, to an international side which has among the best selection of individual talent that can now be relied upon not to get knocked out by an "inferior" opponent and has next to no hope of beating anyone of actual quality.

It's a success overall but it isn't a resounding success. The first World Cup was really good and so were some of the Nations League performances soon after. Since, England have made two Euro finals on account of having kind runs and their new-found ability to avoid losing to teams they should really be beating. You could actually argue that about the World Cup 2018 performance as well. World Cup 2022 they were actually more convincing in the early fixtures but still got knocked out as soon as they met a proper heavyweight. The only "elite" nations England have beaten in a major tournament under Southgate are Germany (with home advantage) and Netherlands in this tournament who some people would argue are just short of being classed as elite.

I don't want to slate Southgate's tenure overall but I do think this is the natural time to move on. England might have just reached a Final but the performances look to be in a state of decline. He's done a good job to a point but I don't think he's a good enough manager to take the team any further. Both of those judgements can be true at the same time. At the end of the day, if you look at the players he has access to relative to his competition on the international stage, getting to the last four of most tournaments he's managed is meeting expectations rather than exceeding them and it's taken some luck to achieve that. Enough time has passed now that being better than what Capello and Hodgson served up in their frankly awful tenures as England manager should no longer be treated as the bar an England manager needs to clear. If you look around, there aren't many, if any, teams that can claim to be able to field a better international squad than England so you have to have some ambition and look to see who else is out there to help them make that final step. You never know when you'll get a dud generation of players and be out of contention for a decade.

[Dan+]

If trophies aren't a measure of success then I'm in the wrong game. If England want to be considered a top team, who have made genuine progress, then they need to be measured by the metrics the top teams are. One trophy in our history is shit.

Roberto Martinez gets absolute barrels for what he did (well didn't do) at Belgium - a historically mediocre team due to them having a very gifted generation of players coming through at the time. I'd argue he had it fairly harsh in some ways. Why do England not get held to these standards? We have a similar situation and frankly, are a bigger country, it's a bigger deal here. Why do Belgium get panned, but England don't?

[Rucksackfranzose]

2 hours ago, Smiley Culture said:

International tournaments are every two years, they’re hard to win. They’re not one of five competitions on offer year after year. 

Who the fuck said it would be easy to be successful? And there's another interesting question, England were the bookies favourites to win Euro 24? How can not winning it be seen as a success giving this fact?

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Dan said:

If trophies aren't a measure of success then I'm in the wrong game. If England want to be considered a top team, who have made genuine progress, then they need to be measured by the metrics the top teams are. One trophy in our history is shit.

Roberto Martinez gets absolute barrels for what he did (well didn't do) at Belgium - a historically mediocre team due to them having a very gifted generation of players coming through at the time. I'd argue he had it fairly harsh in some ways. Why do England not get held to these standards? We have a similar situation and frankly, are a bigger country, it's a bigger deal here. Why do Belgium get panned, but England don't?

Tbf I do not understand how Belgium gave Roberto Martinez so long or why Portugal gave him a shot given their squad and how he'd underperformed with Belgium.

But the expectation that England do better than Belgium is reasonable. Particularly in this tournament where on paper this England squad's one of the best ever in England history. Given the performances, I think it's easy and also accurate to say England got to the final despite Southgate, rather than because of him. He got so much wrong and persisted with it while getting lucky as fuck and even after he'd found his mistakes and corrected them with substitutions. Rather than reward players like Palmer for saving his bacon, he'd persist with Foden who did fuck all except hit the post once this tournament, etc.

This is a squad that's got too much quality and depth to be fucking around with a manager like Southgate or Martinez, imo. Potter or Beheadie Howe are English and better options. The £4m a year might not be enough for Beheadie considering his employers, but the lure of being the England manager might be enough to get Potter to forget about how Chelsea are paying him to do nothing.

[Dan+]

56 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tbf I do not understand how Belgium gave Roberto Martinez so long or why Portugal gave him a shot given their squad and how he'd underperformed with Belgium.

But the expectation that England do better than Belgium is reasonable. Particularly in this tournament where on paper this England squad's one of the best ever in England history. Given the performances, I think it's easy and also accurate to say England got to the final despite Southgate, rather than because of him. He got so much wrong and persisted with it while getting lucky as fuck and even after he'd found his mistakes and corrected them with substitutions. Rather than reward players like Palmer for saving his bacon, he'd persist with Foden who did fuck all except hit the post once this tournament, etc.

This is a squad that's got too much quality and depth to be fucking around with a manager like Southgate or Martinez, imo. Potter or Beheadie Howe are English and better options. The £4m a year might not be enough for Beheadie considering his employers, but the lure of being the England manager might be enough to get Potter to forget about how Chelsea are paying him to do nothing.

The Belgium example for me was how they seem to get totally different treatment, Belgium, despite their pretty mediocre history were largely deemed a failure under Martinez when having a golden generation, yet England, who've achieved very similar (generally beaten teams you expect, lost when seriously tested) are made out to be OK. How do people simultaneously pan Belgium, yet rim England?

[Dr. Gonzo]

50 minutes ago, Dan said:

The Belgium example for me was how they seem to get totally different treatment, Belgium, despite their pretty mediocre history were largely deemed a failure under Martinez when having a golden generation, yet England, who've achieved very similar (generally beaten teams you expect, lost when seriously tested) are made out to be OK. How do people simultaneously pan Belgium, yet rim England?

Yeah I know, I agree with you. They should both be panned imo. And if anything Roberto Martinez's failures are more forgivable than Southgate's, even though Southgate's managed to get to finals.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

I mean, Belgium came 3rd at the world cup, no draws, no penalty shoot outs, to lose to eventual champions France, in a close 1-0 game. They were the 2nd best team at that world cup, despite being probably 4th or 5th best on paper. 2020, lost to champions Italy 2-1. Then they fucked the last world cup up. I'd say it's unfair to slate them for the first 2.

[Dave]

I will say I don't think there will be much optimism going in to the World Cup. There seems to be an expectancy, based on what we have seen this tournament, that Brazil and Argentina should hurt us with there attacking football. Then there's going to be a reaction from the likes of Germany, Italy and France following this tournament. Not to mention it wouldn't be a surprise if Kyle Walker and Kieran Trippier retire now meaning we've gone from five good right backs to chose from four years ago to just Trent that's very questionable defensively given Reece James is always injured and Aaron Wan-Bissaka never pushed on.

The biggest issue that will hold us back now, and i hate to say it, is Gareth Southgate. He needs to make some big calls around whether the likes of Harry Kane, Phil Foden and Jude Bellingham are going to fit in to the best cohesive eleven and I don't see him doing it. 

[HMason]

It seems Southgate just resigned. He did a decent job, no doubt about this, but he's not the one that could take England forward in my opinion.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, The Palace Fan said:

I will say I don't think there will be much optimism going in to the World Cup. There seems to be an expectancy, based on what we have seen this tournament, that Brazil and Argentina should hurt us with there attacking football. Then there's going to be a reaction from the likes of Germany, Italy and France following this tournament. Not to mention it wouldn't be a surprise if Kyle Walker and Kieran Trippier retire now meaning we've gone from five good right backs to chose from four years ago to just Trent that's very questionable defensively given Reece James is always injured and Aaron Wan-Bissaka never pushed on.

The biggest issue that will hold us back now, and i hate to say it, is Gareth Southgate. He needs to make some big calls around whether the likes of Harry Kane, Phil Foden and Jude Bellingham are going to fit in to the best cohesive eleven and I don't see him doing it. 

Pretty sure you should take a look at Alexander-Arnold’s defensive stats from last year and Kyle Walker’s defensive stats from last year. Yes he’s faster, but I’m not sure he’s actually any better defensively and Spain’s two goals & him being the weakest link in England’s defense all tournament I think have gone a bit under the radar. Probably because of how poor we generally were in attack.

I think if the new manager can get England playing some actual football, we have a good chance. Spain and Germany were just about the only sides that looked like teams with a plan from kickoff each match. It’s no surprise that one of those sides ended up winning.

I think with the players we’ve got, if we have a real team identity that’s bigger and better than “keep things tight, but if we go down push really hard to get a goal back - then go back to keeping it tight” we’ve got as good of a chance as any year we’ve had before to win a tournament.

[Dave]

41 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Pretty sure you should take a look at Alexander-Arnold’s defensive stats from last year and Kyle Walker’s defensive stats from last year. Yes he’s faster, but I’m not sure he’s actually any better defensively and Spain’s two goals & him being the weakest link in England’s defense all tournament I think have gone a bit under the radar. Probably because of how poor we generally were in attack.

Kyle Walker is definitely better than Trent Alexander-Arnold defensively. The only people that think otherwise are Liverpool fans. Not that it matters now that Gareth is gone, because if the new manager wants to play a back four, Ben White should be a certainty at right back unless he done something completely so outrageous he's not allowed back in to the camp.

[Dr. Gonzo]

32 minutes ago, The Palace Fan said:

Kyle Walker is definitely better than Trent Alexander-Arnold defensively. The only people that think otherwise are Liverpool fans. Not that it matters now that Gareth is gone, because if the new manager wants to play a back four, Ben White should be a certainty at right back unless he done something completely so outrageous he's not allowed back in to the camp.

Yes the Liverpool fans… and the statistics.

Ben White should be fucked off for turning his back on his country in his prime. The fume some players in the past have gotten for ending their England careers earlier than normal… when they weren’t even in their prime & the relative ambivalence White gets for doing something worse is mind boggling to me.

[Dave]

58 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yes the Liverpool fans… and the statistics.

"Numbers lie and liars use numbers".

Without looking at the statistics I'd assume Trent is higher for tackles, ball recoveries etc and I'd also assume Manchester City have had more possession than Liverpool. For that reason I'd also assume Kyle Walker had conceded less errors leading to a shot or a goal.

[LFCMike]

Walker's recovery is good because of his pace, doesn't necessarily mean he's a good defender. He was abysmal in that final. Arnold wouldn't be allowed back into the country if he'd put a performance like that in

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, The Palace Fan said:

"Numbers lie and liars use numbers".

Without looking at the statistics I'd assume Trent is higher for tackles, ball recoveries etc and I'd also assume Manchester City have had more possession than Liverpool. For that reason I'd also assume Kyle Walker had conceded less errors leading to a shot or a goal.

If you look at the statistics, they make a case for Trippier being the most well rounded fullback England has, Walker being the tallest, and Alexander-Arnold the most unnecessarily slated for his defensive work. Weirdly, Trent's got the lowest pass completion rate in long and short passes - while Walker's got the highest short and long pass completion rate; yet Trent is far ahead of him in terms of chance creation (where Walker's statistics paint him as virtually useless).

I think moments where you see a brilliant recovery tackle make a player pass the eye-test more than when you see a fullback like Trent vs. Doku appearing to get rinsed but what ends up happening is Doku is ending up isolated in a useless position and losing the ball almost immediately - even if one's good actually defending and the other is using pace to make up for dogshit positioning.

If Trent was playing right back at the final and did what Walker did, he'd be made a scapegoat.

[Carnivore Chris]

Disgraceful how Rodri shouted "Gibraltar is Spain" during their celebations. He is no longer welcome in England and should be sent back to his home country and sold to Barcelona.

Disgusting behaviour if you ask me .

@Happy Blue

 

 

[MUFC]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If you look at the statistics, they make a case for Trippier being the most well rounded fullback England has, Walker being the tallest, and Alexander-Arnold the most unnecessarily slated for his defensive work. Weirdly, Trent's got the lowest pass completion rate in long and short passes - while Walker's got the highest short and long pass completion rate; yet Trent is far ahead of him in terms of chance creation (where Walker's statistics paint him as virtually useless).

I think moments where you see a brilliant recovery tackle make a player pass the eye-test more than when you see a fullback like Trent vs. Doku appearing to get rinsed but what ends up happening is Doku is ending up isolated in a useless position and losing the ball almost immediately - even if one's good actually defending and the other is using pace to make up for dogshit positioning.

If Trent was playing right back at the final and did what Walker did, he'd be made a scapegoat.

I reckon Arnold has smooth tanned feet.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

4 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If you look at the statistics, they make a case for Trippier being the most well rounded fullback England has, Walker being the tallest, and Alexander-Arnold the most unnecessarily slated for his defensive work. Weirdly, Trent's got the lowest pass completion rate in long and short passes - while Walker's got the highest short and long pass completion rate; yet Trent is far ahead of him in terms of chance creation (where Walker's statistics paint him as virtually useless).

I think moments where you see a brilliant recovery tackle make a player pass the eye-test more than when you see a fullback like Trent vs. Doku appearing to get rinsed but what ends up happening is Doku is ending up isolated in a useless position and losing the ball almost immediately - even if one's good actually defending and the other is using pace to make up for dogshit positioning.

If Trent was playing right back at the final and did what Walker did, he'd be made a scapegoat.

I think you know as well as I do that a lot of the poor defense has nothing to do with stats. Because there's no stat for 'we conceded 10 or more goals this season because our back 3 was stretched to fuck because Trent was off on an adventure'. It doesn't involve missed tackles or dribbles completed against him. Most of the defensive liability isn't from him failing to close down a cross or not clear a ball, it comes from 'where the fuck was trent?' 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I think you know as well as I do that a lot of the poor defense has nothing to do with stats. Because there's no stat for 'we conceded 10 or more goals this season because our back 3 was stretched to fuck because Trent was off on an adventure'. It doesn't involve missed tackles or dribbles completed against him. Most of the defensive liability isn't from him failing to close down a cross or not clear a ball, it comes from 'where the fuck was trent?' 

You mean... like it is with Walker? 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

You mean... like it is with Walker? 

No, Walker is dropping off and was worse last season at city than previously, but he's consistent and reliable. He was caught between 2 players for the 2nd goal because Saka let la cucaracha burn him and gave him a nights march. It's a miracle that Walker NEARLY closed the cross down if anything.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

No, Walker is dropping off and was worse last season at city than previously, but he's consistent and reliable. He was caught between 2 players for the 2nd goal because Saka let la cucaracha burn him and gave him a nights march. It's a miracle that Walker NEARLY closed the cross down if anything.

Wholeheartedly disagree tbh and I think it's a joke Walker somehow made the team of the tournament, he was easily our biggest weakness at the back - I think the only City player for England that had a good tournament was Stones honestly. He and Rodri were really the only City players that actually turned up for the tournament.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Watch both goals carefully. 

Goal 1. Shaw is caught square on and immobile between Carvajal and Yamal. He fucks up, Carvajal has a beautiful 1 touch pass that lets Yamal run onto the ball and at Guehi, and Shaw never recovers. Everyone shifts over 1 player, Walker picks up a midfield runner (Olmo). NO ONE picks up Williams, Walker tries to get across for the block but can't. Neither Mainoo or Saka picked up Williams, partly because Mainoo is a bit clueless defensively, but MOSTLY because it all happened so fast. 

Goal 2. Olmo picks up the ball in midfield with enough time to turn, face goal, put the kettle on and have a cuppa. Bellingam and Rice are sitting deeper than my cock inside Sydney Sweeny in my dreams, and have no hope of offering pressure. Watch Saka and Cucarella closely at this time. Afro man starts his overlapping run when Ruiz passes to Olmo, Saka is very slow to react. Walker DOES fuck up at this time, because the back 4 start sprinting back, each of the other 3 have a man each, but Walker is caught in about 3 minds, because he has Olmo running at him, and he can see Cucarella us unmarked. Olmo makes a brilliant decision to go direct to Oyarzabal, which eliminates Walker. Had he made the easy pass to Cucarella, Walker would have been able to close down. Oyarzabal makes the perfectly weighted one touch pass and even with his pace, Walker now has buckleys chance. 

I think both goals involve a brilliant first touch pass from a Spaniard, and that needs to be recognized. But Shaw is the villain for the first goal by a MILE. And I think Saka is the root cause for the second, as he put Walker in a blender. 

[Spike]

Fullbacks aren’t defenders anymore - well atleast for teams that are performing at the highest levels, they are just wide midfielders used for transitioning. Alexander-Arnold has bizarre levels of criticism aimed at him, that most high-profile fullbacks have been guilty of.