Barton - Kante Is Overrated

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Dickie said:

Matuidi, Veratti, Busquets, Vidal to name a few off the top of my head.

Vidal and Kante are 2 completely different players. Kante is more defensive minded where as Vidal is more offensive. Vidal is more of a scorer.

[Inverted]

1 minute ago, LaSambadeStGermain said:

Vidal and Kante are 2 completely different players. Kante is more defensive minded where as Vidal is more offensive. Vidal is more of a scorer.

Vidal is only different in the sense that he is more complete. He provides pretty much as much steel and energy as Kante, imo, whilst also being more decisive creatively. 

[Guest]

Just now, Inverted said:

Vidal is only different in the sense that he is more complete. He provides pretty much as much steel and energy as Kante, imo, whilst also being more decisive creatively. 

I was just about to quote you as I was a bit confused. To be fair I haven't seen Vidal very much for Bayern so perhaps he's different there but for Chile he's much more of an attacking player. He does have defensive duties but I don't rate him much in that department where as he's brilliant offensively and scores more goals than a midfielder often does.

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, Inverted said:

Vidal is only different in the sense that he is more complete. He provides pretty much as much steel and energy as Kante, imo, whilst also being more decisive creatively. 

I'd say Vidal is a number 8 where as Kante is a pure number 6. Different entirely. 

[Inverted]

5 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

I'd say Vidal is a number 8 where as Kante is a pure number 6. Different entirely. 

That's true, but what I'm saying is that I think if you played Vidal as the deepest player in midfield you'd probably find he did pretty much as good a job defensively as Kante. 

The reason he gets played further forward is so that he can use the full scope of his abilities. 

[Cicero]

2 minutes ago, Inverted said:

That's true, but what I'm saying is that I think if you played Vidal as the deepest player in midfield you'd probably find he did pretty much as good a job defensively as Kante. 

The reason he gets played further forward is so that he can use the full scope of his abilities. 

And you're basing that on.....?

[Inverted]

Just now, Cicero said:

And you're basing that on.....?

Pure speculation.

Shoot me.

[Guest]

Vidal is not a defensive player. I've seen him try to perform defensive duties for Chile and he's always fouling and getting carded. I don't have a clue how Kante is like but if he's as good a tackler as everyone on here says he is then Vidal is definitely not up to par. Vidal to me is a very good offensive player but defensively I can name dozens better.

[Cicero]

4 minutes ago, LaSambadeStGermain said:

Vidal is not a defensive player. I've seen him try to perform defensive duties for Chile and he's always fouling and getting carded. I don't have a clue how Kante is like but if he's as good a tackler as everyone on here says he is then Vidal is definitely not up to par. Vidal to me is a very good offensive player but defensively I can name dozens better.

Vidal reminds me of a rich man's Ramires

[Dickie]

16 minutes ago, Cicero said:

And you're basing that on.....?

I'm basing this off the fact he was an absolute monster for Juve on the offensive and defensive end, he is a bit more quiet for Bayern Munich because it's hard to be the star studded player he was when you are surrounded by the likes of Muller, Alaba, Lewandowski, etc. But that doesn't stop him from being a real talent. And if we are talking about a player that really plays back that deep then I'd still go with Modric.

[Dan+]

Vidal is probably the best all-round midfielder on the planet.

Kante's good going forward in the sense he drives a team forward. You won't see him get many goals or assists though. If he added that to his game he'd be right up there I feel.

[Inverted]

4 minutes ago, Dan said:

Vidal is probably the best all-round midfielder on the planet.

Kante's good going forward in the sense he drives a team forward. You won't see him get many goals or assists though. If he added that to his game he'd be right up there I feel.

Yeah it's not like he's a destroyer and nothing more. A Makelele type. He brings a lot of energy and urgency to the team's attack. He can't play too many killer passes or arrive in the box like Vidal, bit to his credit he plays smartly and helps to make things happen.

[Stan]

what are people's thoughts on Nainggolan at Roma?

[Inverted]

Just now, Romesh said:

what are people's thoughts on Nainggolan at Roma?

Not watched him much this season but my opinion was already that he's a monster in every aspect of his game, much like Vidal.

And by many accounts this season he's got even better.

[Stan]

Just now, Inverted said:

Not watched him much this season but my opinion was already that he's a monster in every aspect of his game, much like Vidal.

And by many accounts this season he's got even better.

yeah pretty much my view. he's like a Vidal 2.0. 

Goalscoring and a strong midfield tackler. Roma lucky to have him. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Romesh said:

what are people's thoughts on Nainggolan at Roma?

I've rated Nainggolan for a long time but this season he's gone off. Absolutely class player. 

[Mel81x+]

2 hours ago, Cicero said:

Sincerely doubt Schneiderlin, Henderson, or Pereira offer what Kante does. 

 

 

World class tracking that is but then you have to ask what a better midfielder like a Busquets would have done there? He'd have found an outlet to ease the pressure not intensify the attack portion of the game so as to allow the team to settle and then start again. Once again this doesn't mean he's not a very skilled player and god knows having someone that does that is an asset to any team but it isn't world class just yet. 

Whats more important to also note there is the first pass up to the attack that starts the whole chasing. Was it really necessary? I don't think so. You've got a little cul-de-sac in front of you and its actually and errant action. As Mike said, its probably not the best video to showcase his talent but I also understand why its being used and no one can deny that he's extremely capable of fixing a mistake he made.

[Cicero]

How the hell are we comparing Busquets to N'golo Kante now? 

[Mel81x+]

Thought it started at the top where he was being compared to other midfielders? I also don't like stats because they don't really tell the whole story.

[Dan+]

That 24 second video highlights as many flaws as strengths I think. Far more flattering videos of him out there than that, surely.

[WhoNose]

Barton is not an opinion I'd follow. Kante is on the verge of winning consecutive PL with 2 different clubs. I can't imagine Chelsea would be as well position if it were still Mikel in that role for 20+ games

[Dickie]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

How the hell are we comparing Busquets to N'golo Kante now? 

I brought him up awhile ago, but that is a good point what would someone who played that position well like Sergio or Xabi Alonso (in his prime not now, even though he still is a good player) do? Different footballing brains though.

[SirBalon]

6 hours ago, Spike said:

Pretty much agree with this. I don't know if the CL is on the lowest standard but the defending across Europe definitely is. 

So no team in Europe defends well?

 

Anyway...  On topic...  Xhaka is better than Kanté because we paid more for him.  If Kanté was better we'd have signed him for less than what we spent money on.

[Spike]

Just now, SirBalon said:

So no team in Europe defends well?

 

Anyway...  On topic...  Xhaka is better than Kanté because we paid more for him.  If Kanté was better we'd have signed him for less than what we spent money on.

Forwards and the midfield have reached a new plateau. They have evolved with the times, the defence has not. Look at the world of fullbacks? Who do you watch and think 'this guy has it all'? What about CBs? It screams about the quality of the CBs across the world when people rate Hummels and Ramos as the best defenders.

[SirBalon]

14 minutes ago, Spike said:

Forwards and the midfield have reached a new plateau. They have evolved with the times, the defence has not. Look at the world of fullbacks? Who do you watch and think 'this guy has it all'? What about CBs? It screams about the quality of the CBs across the world when people rate Hummels and Ramos as the best defenders.

It's not about the quality of individual players that play in defensive positions.  It's about football mate, it's about football having changed tactically and more emphasis put on forward thinking midfielders.

In times gone past teams would wait (on the whole and ESPECIALLY in European competition) for the opportunistic moment.  Football was more conservative and even though it looked more frenetic due to longer passes being made, this was mainly due to a lack of the technique we see these days in midfielders and how far tactically aware coaches have evolved.  No top team now plays one single rigid formation within a whole match.  Now you will see the teams with top coaches play two or even three formations depending on whether or not they've got the ball or what the score and the time remaining is.

The teams you see that shut others out like those traditionally coached (as an obvious example because there's a lot more) by Mourinho or Simeone are teams that are tactically formatted to defend and bide their time (I'm being very sparse and basic with that description because it's a lot more complicated) and capitalise.  I won't go into why each individual coach does it because there are differing reasons as to why each one does it and isn't important in this argument.  Those teams will have better defensive records because of the tactics and not necessarily because of the individual defenders they have in their squad.  It's about coaching and each coach's ideals!

 

Anyhow...  If defending is crap across the whole of Europe, then we have a status quo and with it we are still in the same argument and doesn't affect the Champions League where defensive stakes are concerned because those European teams also play in their respective leagues and if their defenders are crap in European competition, then they're crap on domestic fronts too.