The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

So our self proclaimed liberitarian shows their true colours. You're not a libertarian which would be unpleasant enough, you're indeed an authoritarian proto-fascist. Or is there a possibility to interprete that sentence in any other way than supporting oppression and withhold of liberty?

This is coming from a supporter of "the first democracy in the Middle East" (even though they're the second, the first democracy was taken away), which has used its freedom to elect people that for decades have shown a callus disregard for Palestinian life - including getting Netanyahu back into power but this time with a coalition that has Ben-Gvir, a man who was denied entry into the IDF because he is too radical, so they can push policies that demonstrate that callus disregard for Palestinian life... which have ultimately just made Israel less safe for Israelis.

I think Israel supporters and Israelis frequently ask "why are we being held to a higher standard than Hamas/Hezbollah?" and the answer's fucking simple isn't it. They're held to a higher standard because they're a democratic country, not a terrorist group. They've got infinitely more say over Israel's government and how Israel's government chooses to operate. It's been how long since Israel's recognised the UN borders of Israel and Palestine? The ones considered the legal borders in the eyes of the international community. And they've really been treated with kid gloves for their role in perpetuating this conflict, in all honesty.

So I think it's more than fair to hold them to a higher standard. And I say this as someone who's not just going to blanket hate all Israelis or Israel as a country just because I don't agree with how their government operates - I even think Israel has a right to properly defend itself and go after Hamas. I just don't think they have the right to collectively punish Gaza and the West Bank, nor do they have a right to ignore international law and violate human rights and commit war crimes.

And it really does say something, when Israel genuinely had the world's sympathy after October 7th and those horrific attacks. Most people, other than the weirdos saying "killing Israeli civilians who lived in Kibbutzes that provided aid and care to people in Gaza is like a slave revolt" or "these kids deserved to die because of what their ancestors did" (aka actual antisemites or insane people) found the attacks horrific and thought Israel would be justified to properly do things to take out Hamas. And in a span of a few short months, they've managed to tarnish their image and erase all of that sympathy.

And honestly, the indignance from Israel's leadership is strikingly horrible. Announcing new illegal West Bank settlements as Blinken lands in Israel to try to deescalate the situation, making it look like these illegal settlements are backed fully by the West, it does nothing to help Israeli long-term safety and it does nothing to help Western policy goals in the region. It actively works against them. Netanyahu having decades of cover for human rights abuses and war crimes by the west... and then he and his government come out and make all kinds of provocative statements about how the west is turning it's back on its closest ally. All while the west has stood by while Israel's fought this war without regard for international law.

Israelis and Palestinians would be better off if they stopped trying to convince the international community that it must take a side. Most people removed from the conflict just want to see it finally fucking end, so this conflict can stop being used as a means of escalating global instability.

They need to stop trying to bend the world to their will, and start bending to the will of the world - for their own good. Because all they keep doing is getting each other killed, generation after generation.

I must say though, I am wildly jealous of the way Palestinians and Israelis have managed to get people to care about them. Other oppressed people in countries around the world would die happy if they could put a spotlight to get the international community to give a shit about them. Meanwhile these 2 keep killing each other and demanding we respect their "all or nothing" solutions and the world sits and listens to every word. PR geniuses, if nothing else.

[Rucksackfranzose]

24 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

 

I must say though, I am wildly jealous of the way Palestinians and Israelis have managed to get people to care about them. Other oppressed people in countries around the world would die happy if they could put a spotlight to get the international community to give a shit about them. Meanwhile these 2 keep killing each other and demanding we respect their "all or nothing" solutions and the world sits and listens to every word. PR geniuses, if nothing else.

Can understand your feelings baring in mind you've got Iranian ancestry. Yet, I know what I write now is hardly a consolation, just imagine how betrayed by the global West the Kurds must feel, to name the first persons fitting in this thread that come to my mind when thinking about an ethnic group, blatantly forgotten by that part of the International community that can't stop to talk about human rights and the right of self-determination of peoples, whenever it fits their agenda.

Edited March 26 by Rucksackfranzose

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Can understand your feelings baring in mind you've got Iranian ancestry. Yet, I know what I write now is hardly a consolation, just imagine how betrayed by the global West the Kurds must feel, to name the first persons fitting in this thread that comes to my mind when thinking about an rethnic group, blatantly forgotten by that part of the International community that can't stop to talk about human rights and the right of self-determination of peoples, whenever it fits their agenda.

Oh for sure. Iranian Kurds have been the amongst the most vocal and active in the human rights movement in Iran since Mahsa Amini's death (she was also a Kurd, weirdly). But yeah, the Kurds of Syria and Iraq (and probably many other parts of the Middle East) often find themselves ignored up until the West needs them for another misadventure in the Middle East... and then they are quickly betrayed and left to fend for themselves against groups that think they're subhuman and must be wiped off the planet. The strangest thing with me is the Kurdish groups that kill each other, even though they both want the same things but have different ideas of how to get it. So rather than work together and live with the difference of opinion, they do the work of those who hate the existence of Kurds and kill each other.

[OrangeKhrush]

12 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

So our self proclaimed liberitarian shows their true colours. You're not a libertarian which would be unpleasant enough, you're indeed an authoritarian proto-fascist. Or is there a possibility to interprete that sentence in any other way than supporting oppression and withhold of liberty?

I'm not sure how telling you that latest Palastinian polls show them choosing a convicted terrorist as the person of choice to run their country.  

Surely with freedom and liberty they could choose a more moderate candidate, rather than a devout Islamist who has said he wants the return of the Islamic caliphate.

How does such a scenario end in peace?  What is needed is leaders that can accept that there is equal blame and the past is the past, the only way to move on is accepting that repeating the past will only end up in war.  

You are the one that completely fails to consider the dual complexity of this situation without any consideration of the magnitude that such a decision can have.  While they don't know any better giving them power to make a choice that is fundamentally bad only results in the cycle repeating itself.  This was a conversation had in 2003 and the Western world with their all knowing benevolence failed to calculate and by 2003 Hamas were murdering palastinians, executing homosexuals and killing political opponents and their supporters.  Why do you have so much belief that things will be any different?

[OrangeKhrush]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Oh for sure. Iranian Kurds have been the amongst the most vocal and active in the human rights movement in Iran since Mahsa Amini's death (she was also a Kurd, weirdly). But yeah, the Kurds of Syria and Iraq (and probably many other parts of the Middle East) often find themselves ignored up until the West needs them for another misadventure in the Middle East... and then they are quickly betrayed and left to fend for themselves against groups that think they're subhuman and must be wiped off the planet. The strangest thing with me is the Kurdish groups that kill each other, even though they both want the same things but have different ideas of how to get it. So rather than work together and live with the difference of opinion, they do the work of those who hate the existence of Kurds and kill each other.

Trust me, the world should be focused more on the Kurdish situation rather than the Israel/Palastine dispute.   That is the real ignoring of genocide because it isn't a fashionable story.

It's tragic that Americans used the Kurds then abandoned them, they did the same to Afghanis.  

The world turns a blind eye to real attrocities in Africa, the Middle east and China so they can obsess about their post modernist anti zionistic rhetoric.

[OrangeKhrush]

Then you get these religious nutjobs,  across the board batshit crazy

[OrangeKhrush]

This obviously blew up on the internet and every anti Israel source ran on it without context with the "everyone is a civilian" narrative.   

I read that the IDF responded to the UN with extend footage which is withheld from the story making machine which shows them coming from an active war zone as participants.   Context is key to everything.   

Al Jazeera had two journalists killed because they did not identify as press nor make themselves or their presence known, they then launched a drone in a active war zone in which they were traced and struck.  Hamas operate drones and given the destructive nature of drone warfare the IDF actively seeks operators.  Given Al Jazeera's lack of neutrality they may have been trying to tip off IDF positions ergo not acting like press do.  First off press are not allowed in a active war zone they are kept in safe areas under escort. Al Jazeera did not comment other than run the same tropes.

[Rucksackfranzose]

4 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I'm not sure how telling you that latest Palastinian polls show them choosing a convicted terrorist as the person of choice to run their country.  

Surely with freedom and liberty they could choose a more moderate candidate, rather than a devout Islamist who has said he wants the return of the Islamic caliphate.

How does such a scenario end in peace?  What is needed is leaders that can accept that there is equal blame and the past is the past, the only way to move on is accepting that repeating the past will only end up in war.  

You are the one that completely fails to consider the dual complexity of this situation without any consideration of the magnitude that such a decision can have.  While they don't know any better giving them power to make a choice that is fundamentally bad only results in the cycle repeating itself.  This was a conversation had in 2003 and the Western world with their all knowing benevolence failed to calculate and by 2003 Hamas were murdering palastinians, executing homosexuals and killing political opponents and their supporters.  Why do you have so much belief that things will be any different?

They could, they don't have too, though. It's not like libertarian world of view would mean you are allowed to do what you want only, while everyone is allowed to do t what you want only.

Regarding your third paragraph, you claim thhere equal blame in the past, yet you only expect the Palestinian side to accept it leads to war, when they vote how they please. How about expecting the Israelis to accept it will lead to terrorist attacks, if they go on, with illegal settlements and declaring whole  Jerusalem their capital against International law? Asking because that is only applying the same logic to Israel you applied to the Palestinians, and it was you saying there's equal blame in the past? So it would only be fair to await the same concessions from both sides. Nothing about that from you so far. What you want isn't peace but totally submissing themselfes to Israel's arbitrariness.

Edited March 27 by Rucksackfranzose

[OrangeKhrush]

2 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

They could, they don't have too, though. It's not like libertarian world of view would mean you are allowed to do what you want only, while everyone is allowed to do t what you want only.

Regarding your third paragraph, you claim thhere equal blame in the past, yet you only expect the Palestinian side to accept it leads to war, when they vote how they please. How about expecting the Israelis to accept it will lead to terrorist attacks, if they go on, with illegal settlements and declaring whole  Jerusalem their capital against International law? Asking because that is only applying the same logic to Israel you applied to the Palestinians, and it was you saying there's equal blame in the past? So it would only be fair to await the same concessions from both sides. Nothing about that from you so far. What you want isn't peace but totally submissing themselfes to Israel's arbitrariness.

First off Jerusalem under the 67 accords was deemed international and not belonging to Israel or Palastine.

If land was their aim they would have accepted 1947, therefore it is not a land dispute it is what Al Husseini said it was all along, a holy war.  Hitler wanted to send all the Jews to the holy land but it was Al Husseini who said it was going to be problematic and suggested burning them all.   The issue is Jewish presence is a front to Islamism.  It is also in the Hamas,Islamic jihad of palastine and Fatahs mandate for the erradication of Israel.  

I don't like the settler expansions and the Hassidics handling of this, I am more that happy to revise Israels position in the west back with some compromise.   At the closest point to Tel Aviv the west bank high ground is 9 miles making it a grave threat, some of the west bank territory should be headed to Israel for depth of defence and in return southern west bank territory is given to Palastine.

Israel was built with freedom, Palastine hasn't built not because of Israelis but because they are not free amongst themselves which is why I'm unsatisfied with the fact that Hamas is allowed to survive.

[Spike]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1198908227

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1198908227

Shit like this is why I think it's mental to believe Israel, especially under Netanyahu, has been serious about a lasting meaningful peace.

Backing an extremist group and continuing to prop them up when they've proven to be dangerous to both Israelis and Palestinians because by propping them up it undermines the idea of peace and a two-state solution is very much the exact opposite of demonstrating a serious commitment to developing peace after decades of bitter conflict.

[Spike]

Iran.

[Bluebird Hewitt]

UN Human Rights chief saying that the Gaza starvation could amount to war crimes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68679482

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

UN Human Rights chief saying that the Gaza starvation could amount to war crimes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68679482

Typical UN, convinced of war crimes and yet do nothing.  They have not condemned Hamas once or held them responsible for certain war crimes.

The UN is the biggest puppet of them all, the fact that China, Russia and others are allowed into the UN is itself satire, 66% of the UN is comprised by states with little to no human rights

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Typical UN, convinced of war crimes and yet do nothing.  They have not condemned Hamas once or held them responsible for certain war crimes.

The UN is the biggest puppet of them all, the fact that China, Russia and others are allowed into the UN is itself satire, 66% of the UN is comprised by states with little to no human rights

 

Lol the UN only has one purpose - serving as a forum of open dialogue between nations of the world to avoid another world war.

All the other shit, like the human rights committee, is absolutely meaningless.

The idea that any state shouldn’t be in the UN demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about why the UN exists.

[Tommy]

13 hours ago, Spike said:

Iran.

Iran so far away...

[Stan]

3 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

They have not condemned Hamas once or held them responsible for certain war crimes

On their homepage there's a section for Guterres calling for 'the immediate release of all Israeli hostages held in Gaza'. 

A quick search on their site also shows this:

https://press.un.org/en/2023/gaef3593.doc.htm

Quote

Delegates Condemn Hamas Terrorist Attacks, Israeli Strikes, as Second Committee Concludes Debate on Sovereignty of Palestinians over Their Natural Resources

 

https://press.un.org/en/2023/sgsm21981.doc.htm

Quote

Secretary-General Strongly Condemns Attack by Hamas against Israeli Towns Near Gaza Strip, Which Have Killed Numerous Civilians, Injured Hundreds

The following statement was issued today by the Spokesman for UN Secretary-General António Guterres:

The Secretary-General condemns in the strongest terms this morning’s attack by Hamas against Israeli towns near the Gaza Strip and central Israel, including the firing of thousands of rockets towards Israeli population centres.

The attacks have so far claimed numerous Israeli civilian lives and injured many hundreds.  The Secretary-General is appalled by reports that civilians have been attacked and abducted from their own homes.

The Secretary-General is deeply concerned for the civilian population and urges maximum restraint.  Civilians must be respected and protected in accordance with international humanitarian law at all times.

The Secretary-General extends his deepest condolences to the families of the victims and calls for the immediate release of all abducted persons.

The Secretary-General urges all diplomatic efforts to avoid a wider conflagration.

He stresses that violence cannot provide a solution to the conflict, and that only through negotiation leading to a two-State solution can peace be achieved.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

While all this goes on Northern Syria is under attack by the All Assad, Russians and Iranians and it gets absolutely no interest.  

Why is nothing done about the Syrian and Sudanese catastrophe?  It's not profitable is probably the only legitimate answer

Meanwhile in Gaza tik toks of Gazans feeding 100's of stray cats surplus stocks or bags upon bags of MREs found in dumpsters are circulating.

I am with Gonzo here, why is 700 000 dead in Syria, 500 000 in Yemen and 400 000 in Sudan not even worth a UNSC sit together.

[OrangeKhrush]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

On their homepage there's a section for Guterres calling for 'the immediate release of all Israeli hostages held in Gaza'. 

A quick search on their site also shows this:

https://press.un.org/en/2023/gaef3593.doc.htm

 

https://press.un.org/en/2023/sgsm21981.doc.htm

 

The negotiations have stalled already, Hamas want the IDF to pull back, they want all Hamas militants released and apparently they want the 1967 borders with Jerusalem as the capital and in exchange Israel gets nothing.

For me the only permanent ceasefire would be, our prisoners and Hamas leaving, and the palastinian get palastine with support rebuilding it, full oversight by the UN and US.   Then we are making some progress.

[Dr. Gonzo]

57 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

I am with Gonzo here, why is 700 000 dead in Syria, 500 000 in Yemen and 400 000 in Sudan not even worth a UNSC sit together.

With Yemen it's because the US is more involved in the genocide the Saudis have been behind than they are with the human rights abuses in Israel. With Syria, it's because Russia's helping Assad. They're both on the UNSC, so they've got veto power so even if something was raised it'd get immediately vetoed. Sad truth though is that the international community does not give a fuck if other Muslims kill other Muslims - I honestly think there's large parts of the world that see Muslims killing Muslims and think "lol cool." Tbh I don't know much about the conflict between Sudan and South Sudan so I'm not going to comment on that, but I assume it's more of the same + they're African so racists probably care even less if they kill each other.

The UN's important because it's a world diplomatic forum, but in terms of actually doing anything about human rights abuses when UNSC permanent members are involved... it doesn't do anything. All those committees and commissions on stuff like human rights, climate initiatives, drug abuse... I think that's partially just some countries want to pat themselves on the back and other countries just end up in those committees/commissions and even heading them because of the policy of rotation and just make a mockery of the situation.

It is what it is, but I still think it's good to have an avenue for diplomacy for the international community to all gather and get their say, especially with the world as polarised as it is today. It's good to have an institution for diplomatic avenues in the face of global conflict, to avoid a world war - and that's really all the UN has to it that has any point at all. The rest is just pointless fluff so some countries can have a feel good moment.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Israel strikes IRGC run consulate in Syria. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68708923

Dead sepahis are a good thing for Iranians - but considering the fact the Iranian embassy next door is completely untouched, while Israel pretty precisely took out that IRGC den... it really does demonstrate that Israel is more than capable of using precision strikes to target who they want to target. I don't think that's a good look considering the way they've gone about striking Gaza.

[6666]

Nazi Israel murdering aid workers. Not a surprise.

If you're Palestinian, they'll kill you. If you're trying to help a Palestinian, they'll kill you. Destroying everything in site and then insanely delusional (or downright evil) people have the nerve to suggest Nazi Israel only has good intentions.

Genocidal scum.

[6666]

 

[Inverted]

From now on, the only question which should be asked of any figure in British politics about the Gazan war is 

"how many British lives are Israel's war goals worth?"

Because for most, it is evidently more than 3, and I think the British public deserve to know which of their leaders think their lives are expendable for the sake of Israeli objectives. 

[RandoEFC+]

I don't like weighing in on this really because the state of Israel is obviously quite important for Jewish people. I don't really see why it's so hard for the US and UK leaders to come out and say they support the state of Israel and its right to defend itself but they do not support the homicide carried out by Netanyahu and his government.

The discourse on this in the UK is beyond fucked up though. Seemingly millions of closet Islamophobes who couldn't point to Israel or Gaza on a map are too ready to call anyone who criticises Israel's actions antisemitic. I assume it's the same in the US. And at the root of it all, it isn't a moral obligation to the Jewish Israeli population that even motivates our leaders to pussy-foot around the truth, it's a matter of money, trade and/or their own interests in the Middle East.