Euro 2020 Qualifiers - Group A - Matchday 6

[Michael]

10 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

How did Bulgaria get so bad? I mean the 1994 team was an exception but they've always produced the odd good player and you'd expect them to be a semi decent side like Serbia or the Croats.

Bulgaria have not had a decent side for ages. Their 90's generation was their best ever team. Then came Berbatov in the 2000's, but the Bulgaria team he played in wasn't great either, still it was better than today's Bulgarian team. Most of their players play in the weak Bulgarian League, while one of their regulars Sarmov plays in the German 3rd division! That should give you an idea as to the calibre and standard of most of their players.

You can't compare Bulgaria to Croatia and Serbia. Croatia and Serbia are always producing talented players. As to why they produce great players and Bulgaria don't, well it could be a number of factors, but I would think that Bulgaria haven't gotten it right at grass roots level, unlike the other two nations we've mentioned. Their coaching standards can't be that great.

[Smiley Culture]

Excellent from England. A response from Friday’s poor performance. The players won at a tough place to go to and had to handle a situation that no person or group should have to deal with and did so with class and decorum. 

Winks is an undeniable step up from Rice. An elegant yet understated footballer is Winks, I don’t get the general consensus that he’s a bad player. He seems to suffer from being the scapegoat, as was Jordan Henderson earlier in his career. 

As for the non-footballing matter of racism, as I said earlier, the protocol is good. It’s “worked”. I say it like that because while the abuse was less vocal and in fewer numbers in the second half, ultimately it hasn’t worked because the knuckle dragging degenerates are still roaming the streets and spreading their hate and bile. It did seem strange that they perpetrators seemed to up and leave though.

As we all know, the punishment is never harsh enough. It never has been and I’m not sure this will change it either. You’ve got excellent footage there this evening of people’s faces clearly making racial chants and making nazi hand gestures, but as I said previously, does Bulgaria as a country want to eradicate racism? Will they making a conscious effort as a country, let alone as a sporting governing body?

We can’t take the moral high ground because ultimately we still have racism here but there is efforts made to eradicate it both in the sport and in the country as a whole. 
 

[Dan+]

If you want to achieve something you've got to hit people where it hurts.

Bulgaria's ultras are openly racist. There are openly racist stickers around the ground. Check Twitter if you don't believe me.

Bulgaria's ultras also hate the Bulgarian FA.

How is giving them the platform by partially closing a ground they were never getting close to selling out going to do anything?

You've got to take away the platform and boot them out until they solve the problem.

That three step protocol tonight was a fucking farce. What the hell did it achieve? They quite literally did it, took both the warnings, then walked out of the ground. What in the fuck did that achieve?

Greg Clarke saying UEFA are doing stuff about it is laughable. UEFA's punishments are hollow. We saw the evidence once again.

[Inverted]

Seeing Eastern Europeans throwing Nazi salutes, when they would be considered something akin to pond life by any of their heroes, is still one of the amusing kinds of displays of abject servility and mental feebleness out there.

[Smiley Culture]

Greg Clarke should get a new arsehole ripped for his bollocks about UEFA having people that want to get rid of racism. His pandering to the corrupt UEFA is abhorrent and he should be forced into handing in his resignation. That interview was a big moment, for me. He could and should have come out and ripped UEFA and their “punishments” apart because they’re not working and not strong enough but he pandered to them. Very disappointed in him. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Smiley Culture said:

We can’t take the moral high ground because ultimately we still have racism here but there is efforts made to eradicate it both in the sport and in the country as a whole. 

I agreed with everything you said in your post, but this (although I half agree with it, we still have a racism problem that we need to address ourselves). But I think we can take the moral highground despite the UK's own issues with racism, because as bad as our issues with racism might be, we don't have large sections of the ground making monkey noises and doing Nazi salutes. And as long as we don't have sections of the ground partaking in that kind of bullshit, we can look down on the people that are from some sort of moral highground - even if there are other peaks of morality where people can look down on us still.

[SirBalon]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I agreed with everything you said in your post, but this (although I half agree with it, we still have a racism problem that we need to address ourselves). But I think we can take the moral highground despite the UK's own issues with racism, because as bad as our issues with racism might be, we don't have large sections of the ground making monkey noises and doing Nazi salutes. And as long as we don't have sections of the ground partaking in that kind of bullshit, we can look down on the people that are from some sort of moral highground - even if there are other peaks of morality where people can look down on us still.

That anyone in this country rigt niw look down their noses at any other country when in reference to racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, Anti-Semitism etc... Makes me cringe and want to turn away red faced. Stan Collymore for example should go back to school and get a proper education this time around... But anyway, I have this...

 

[Tommy]

13 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

That anyone in this country rigt niw look down their noses at any other country when in reference to racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, Anti-Semitism etc... Makes me cringe and want to turn away red faced. Stan Collymore for example should go back to school and get a proper education this time around... But anyway, I have this...

 

Brits doing a Nazi Salute? That's like some proper satire. 

 

Anyway, fuck these racist cunts in the Bulgarian crowd. Glad England beat them, I just wish it would have been by an even higher margin. 

[Michael]

2 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Brits doing a Nazi Salute? That's like some proper satire. 

 

Anyway, fuck these racist cunts in the Bulgarian crowd. Glad England beat them, I just wish it would have been by an even higher margin. 

How many WW2 British soldiers will be turning in their graves at the sight of these so called British lads doing the Nazi salute?

 

[Harry]

Coming out before the game with concerns of racism surely only increased the issue...?

"Whatever you do you better not come out with anything racist or we'll get really upset and maybe abandon the game giving you the three points?"

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

30 minutes ago, Harry said:

Coming out before the game with concerns of racism surely only increased the issue...?

"Whatever you do you better not come out with anything racist or we'll get really upset and maybe abandon the game giving you the three points?"

 

I mean if it were down to me, I'd call off matches that need to be stopped because of racism and then I'd give the side with the fans giving the racist abuse out a 10-0 loss on paper. I imagine immediately having your nation lose 10-0 in an instant, regardless of however well they were doing on the pitch, would probably shut some of them up and keep those Nazi salutes down. The ones who wouldn't shut up are probably never going to change and society will just need to wait for them to die off and hope things in that country make a shift.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

 

And if you'll notice, I didn't stay silent about British racism when I made my comment.

People like Piers Morgan, though, as @The Artful Dodger pointed out... that fanned the flames of racism in the UK and now want to be able to bask in the glow of universal condemnation of racism towards "our boys" are the more dickheaded of those condemning racism.

[Dan+]

England isn't perfect but name me a country on the planet that has literally no racism issue. I can't take people seriously who think it's anything like Bulgaria in England.

[Harry]

47 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I mean if it were down to me, I'd call off matches that need to be stopped because of racism and then I'd give the side with the fans giving the racist abuse out a 10-0 loss on paper. I imagine immediately having your nation lose 10-0 in an instant, regardless of however well they were doing on the pitch, would probably shut some of them up and keep those Nazi salutes down. The ones who wouldn't shut up are probably never going to change and society will just need to wait for them to die off and hope things in that country make a shift.

That seems extreme. 

I didn't see the game so not sure how clear and obvious it was and I abhor racism but I think there are still a huge number of countries that do not sync up with western values on racism yet and will take time to get there.

Immediate forfeiture of games would be a pretty heavy handed way of achieving an outcome and may even drive the undecideds in the wrong direction.

[Dr. Gonzo]

42 minutes ago, Harry said:

That seems extreme. 

I didn't see the game so not sure how clear and obvious it was and I abhor racism but I think there are still a huge number of countries that do not sync up with western values on racism yet and will take time to get there.

Immediate forfeiture of games would be a pretty heavy handed way of achieving an outcome and may even drive the undecideds in the wrong direction.

Undecideds on what? Racism? If their society isn’t ready, it’s time to make them ready tbh. Black athletes shouldn’t have to face this kind of bullshit just because some cultures are racist.

It’s hard to believe people can still enjoy football and be racist at the same time to me tbh. My guess is lots of Bulgarian fans support a Bulgarian side (maybe) and a side from a big league - by 2019 all the top clubs have had plenty of players from all kinds of races and religions that have been hugely successful. I just don’t understand how they can back racism if they’d celebrate a non-white scoring for “their team.”

It’s easier to understand the old school English racism where people would hate John Barnes for being black and when he’d score for England there’d be racists who insist the goal shouldn’t have counted because he’s not really English cos he’s black. That’s abhorrent thinking... but at least it’s consistent ideologically.

And obviously football isn’t enough to stop racism because 1) football’s got a racism problem, 2) Pele would have solved racism in the 50s... but it’s got to take some cognitive dissonance.

Sometimes you have to force societal change and football’s in a position to do that by taking a heavy handed zero tolerance policy.

[SirBalon]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

And if you'll notice, I didn't stay silent about British racism when I made my comment.

And that's the only way forward like with an alcoholic... You can't begin to solve the problem until you admit you've got it. We do have to stop gettint all upity when we see it with others like we're we don't have it. We got it mostly rid out of football grounds which was great and that was down to the implementation of political correctness and now we have an opposing fight with liberatarians and the fact what was achieved is now called being a snowflake. 

[Stan]

The Bulgarian boss still denies anything happened and refuses to accept there may be some fans being racist

Unbelievable. 

 

[True Blue]

Has anyone actually been in Eastern Europe? With corruption, crime, low income and in general poor life standard racism is the least of worries for any Eastern Europe country. I am not saying it's a good thing or that should it be ignored, but governments and leaders of those countries are doing little to nothing to improve that.

[Harry]

5 minutes ago, True Blue said:

Has anyone actually been in Eastern Europe? With corruption, crime, low income and in general poor life standard racism is the least of worries for any Eastern Europe country. I am not saying it's a good thing or that should it be ignored, but governments and leaders of those countries are doing little to nothing to improve that.

Fair point.

The other thing I wonder about Is whether the size of a problem is relative to ones frame of reference? I.e In a country where racism is a known issue and is expected by everyone and therefore noone bats an eye is the problem actually less of an issue to that society than it would be in a society where there is less rampant racism but where people expect better and therefore take it incredibly seriously and get very worked up about it?

There is a strong sense of revulsion towards Bulgaria pervading through out all media write-ups about today's game which is a good thing from a zero tolerance perspective but it also seems like there's lack of understanding of Bulgaria as a place and that many factors contribute to why things are a certain way there that are different to more first world westernised countries.

 

 

[Inverted]

Racism is psychological and has no basis in material reality - hence why people with less exposure to other races generally tend to be more racist. There's no material factor as to why people who live in a country with almost no black people , should hate black people so much. 

Racism is such an issue in these places, not because they're poor, but because their culture has a relentless streak of racism which is encouraged by wider society and the media, and which people rarely have a chance to be be challenged in by practical experience. 

[Stan]

What a cunt. 

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Bulgaria, out of all the Eastern European countries, actually came out of the Second World War with perhaps the least disgusting record. Despite having a pro Nazi king and legislation the people of Bulgaria were vehemently anti the Jewish round ups and  I think were the only country were the Nazis actually gave up on trying to deport and kill the Jewish population because of the public outcry . These people are disgrace to their own history.

[Smiley Culture]

Does anyone actually think that closed stadiums, forfeited games and bannings from qualification processes is going to solve anything? 

These people aren’t racist as soon as the turnstile clicks and they enter a football ground, they’re racist full stop. 

[The Artful Dodger]

4 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

Does anyone actually think that closed stadiums, forfeited games and bannings from qualification processes is going to solve anything? 

These people aren’t racist as soon as the turnstile clicks and they enter a football ground, they’re racist full stop. 

They also enjoy the notoriety, these people would have absolutely loved all this fall out and attention. They will see themselves as rebellious outlaws.

Only way is either empty stadium for the whole qualification or expulsion.

[Dan+]

18 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

Does anyone actually think that closed stadiums, forfeited games and bannings from qualification processes is going to solve anything? 

These people aren’t racist as soon as the turnstile clicks and they enter a football ground, they’re racist full stop. 

At what point though does it stop being football's problem? I literally don't know what else you can really do. I agree by the way it won't fix things but I think it's ingrained beyond repair, to the point I don't know what UEFA or football itself can do.

That said UEFA are frequently exposed in this situation.