Leaderboard

This is the main sticking point for me with some of the whataboutery in this thread. People need to accept that some land in the majority of the population that get their news from what's on the television and that when stuff like Yemen and arms sales get mentioned in this thread, it's the first many have heard of it. By all means shit on the media for that but there's no need for us to be having pops at each other over it and calling people hypocrites or inconsistent for not having opinions on stuff they know little to nothing about.

Both sides propaganda arms are in full swing the ghost of Kiev is fake snopes disproved that today but already t-shirts are being sold Lol because Farage used the term poking the bear you’ve chucked him in this, it’s precisely about Nato, Putin has said as much for 8-9 years. As soon as The pro Russian government collapsed due to protests when they aligned themselves with Russia over the west (still a valid term) he took action. He’s an autocratic ruler with a huge border and the expansion of nato concerns him because it weakens Russian influence and means a larger border would have to be defended which is poking a paranoid man even more. German and France were reluctant about Ukrainian membership of NATO back in 2008 because they saw this coming. Nato already border them in 5 countries now a huge land border to the south is encircling him, are we surprised he’s going in to foster regime change with a puppet similar to what he has with Belarus?

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not because of NATO, rather it is precisely for the reason Ukraine wanted to be in NATO in the first place. The poking the Russian bear is a Nigel Farage hot take, common today on the extreme political wings in Britain and the contrarian writers. Desperate to inflict some sort of score against our own politics. Everything must be framed as to how "the west" (an outdated cold war label and thought process) is in the wrong here.

Whenever this is over Europe should lessen it's security dependency on US and draft it's own working relationship with Russia.

I'd say Ukrainians and Russians see themselves as brothers and sisters. Especially among younger people. There's also many reports about Russian soldiers surrendering to the Ukrainians, because they don't actually want to kill people.

‘War crimes’ are such a joke. They are only crimes when it is the loser.

Russian nationalism, the racialist type of which Putin subscribes to, doesn't see Ukraine as an independent country, it considers it as an extension of Russia, part of Russia, ethnically Russian. Particularly parts of Ukraine. It considers Russia to have been robbed of Ukraine. For 20 years Ukraine has been attacked by various means, from tanks to trade wars by the Kremlin all to prevent Ukraine from breaking away from their influence and control. Strong forces in Ukrainian politics would like to join the European Union. Putin won't stand for it. This is all why Ukraine flirts with joining NATO. Hanging over Ukraine's expression of freedom is the stench of Russian nationalism and the threat of Russian tanks if Ukraine dare do what the Kremlin doesn't like.

Let's forget politics for a second, it's about humanity. I don't like the idea that Russia can invade whatever non-NATO country it wishes and the world will do nothing but watch. I don't like the idea that children have to wake up to air raid sirens because of some paperwork. "With great power comes great responsibility" sounds great in spider man doesn't it. I'm not saying Europe or NATO have to police the world, but they have "flirted" with Ukriane without having intentions of helping in case this happened.

The following statement has been published.… During my nearly 20-year ownership of Chelsea FC, I have always viewed my role as a custodian of the Club, whose job it is ensuring that we are as successful as we can be today, as well as build for the future, while also playing a positive role in our communities. I have always taken decisions with the Club's best interest at heart. I remain committed to these values. That is why I am today giving trustees of Chelsea's charitable Foundation the stewardship and care of Chelsea FC. I believe that currently they are in the best position to look after the interests of the Club. players, staff, and fans.

Long story short it’s about NATO and Ukraine joining NATO. NATO is effectively ran by the US, and a military alliance. If UKraine joins NATO it means the yanks can put troops on his border, Putin is not having it. Think Cuban middle crisis 2.0 except Kennedy had a brain and this senile old man is a front for the real people in power over in Washington the warmongering defence contractors. He’s not justified invading a sovereign nation but he’s been provoked by the impeding tanks on his lawn. Mexico for example can’t do fuck all with American approval, Russia wants the same from Belarus/Ukraine etc

It isn’t as if no one would care, it’s more like the media wouldn’t care. Ask anyone about a war going on in an African country, more than most wouldn’t have the slightest idea. The media get to pick and choose what gets the most coverage, in virtually all aspects of life. Especially if a story fits that media’s left wing or right wing agenda.

They’re already in the arms of China, demand for gas and common enemy in the US has made them bed fellows years ago. this has been going on 8 years thousand dead only now is the worlds media paying attention. Granted Putin has escalated it but where was the condemnation 6 months ago?

Interesting how football clubs can stick up for Ukraine with signs and banners on the pitch/TV screens which is totally fine. But bring out Palestine flags and that's a big no no

Zelensky tweeted implying Turkey may close Bosporus for Russian warships !!! If confirmed this can be huge

Is the other person yourself?

He's in my top 2 of TF365 smart people hierarchy list

I can see why people call you El Profesor.

I agree. But at the same time, I understand why people do that. Hitler is for us what the Napoleon and the French revolution was to people in the 19th century. Any historical event is measured and compared to Hitler and the World War II. We still very much live in the shadow of that war. By the way, I saw a guy on Twitter comparing Putin´s invasion of Ukraine not with Hitler´s agression of Czechoslovakia but with Mussolini´s invasion of Ethiopia in 1935. I agree, that was a very good point. It´s a much better comparison. It was a widely condemned attack and it isolated Mussolini, driving him to the arms of a more powerful ally, Nazi Germany. Before the invasion of Somalia, Mussolini and Hitler didn´t get along very well, considering both had conflicting claims regarding austrian territory. I think the same could happen with Russia. Ukraine will make Russia into a pariah state and will drive Putin to the arms of China.

I think as a Portuguese person Machado shouldn't be, but it's because Europe has done nothing of substance to assist Ukraine. I apologize for considering you to be a virtue signaler.

I'm embarrassed to be an European today. We've not done enough, today is already too late.

I think we should all calm down on this guys and not fall out over war and who said this and who said that war is evil, Putin and despots like him are evil, all that moron is thinking about is a greater USSR what it was when he was in the KGB, he wants that again. I shudder when I see conflicts like this on the media, men, women and children suffering over one man and a country's greed in wanting more, I have seen things in my army days that would make your skin crawl and I still get flashbacks to this day but not as bad when I first left the army many moons ago. Peace brothers on here and forevermore, please.

The point mainly is that hopefully after seeing war close to them, people in West/Europe aren't that naive like in Iraq 2003 when their governments try to create 'consent' for war in far off places.

I'm anti-war and I think that war by its very definition is a war crime. That isn't aloof or cynical. The arbitrary line in the sand of war that people promise to 'not cross' is quite frankly bizarre to me because there is no way that any sort of armed conflict is anything but crossing the line. People are going to die. I just bought 'Diesel and Heat' 1st print on vinyl.

My focus is on your actions, not those in the conflict. I grew up listening to midnight oil and System of a down. Being told by my stepfather to question the motives of any war, and to watch the responses of the world with a critical eye. I've always despised war, the politicians who herd their people into it, and the justifications provided. I don't need to change my profile picture, be active on twitter or provide any other virtue signals to prove it. You clearly do for whatever reason and I'm just being critical of that. You actions are alien to me, and you likening prediction football transfers to predicting civilian casualties shows how far apart I feel we are in this.

Allies win WW2 The nuking of Japan was perfectly justifiable. We saved them from destroying themselves and Asia! Axis win WW2 The holocaust was perfectly justifiable. We saved Europe from them, they were all war criminals and radicals, we saved Europe! It is oh so evil what people do to eachother, it is very tiresome

If you were this shocked and outraged at the war crimes, lack of due process and destruction of civil liberty and way of life when any western nation invaded any poor sod, African, Asian, Middle Eastern or otherwise, I'll give you full credit. I really will. I'm just cynical because all of a sudden now it's a European nation at risk, and European blood being shed all of a sudden everything is so fucking sad, reprehensible and shocking all of a sudden, whereas historically no one has given a wet shit about the wars fought so far this century. Now that it's 'the other guy' doing the invading the tunes being sung have turned. Spike is correct, War crimes are the justifications of the bloodthirsty actions of history's winners against history's losers. How many millions of people have died as a result of 'human rights interventions' from the west?

Right on cue, here comes the "America did this too" angle. I'm not arguing with you but this is a thread about Russia and Ukraine so I won't get sucked into it. I don't think anyone defends the war crimes committed by the West either, but there are countless cans of worms you can open. Iraq. Weapons of mass destruction. Selling arms to Saudi Arabia. Etc. It just draws everyone away from the discussion about what's happening now and what this thread is about. If you want to talk about all that stuff then feel free, but use the Middle East thread for it, or whichever one is relevant. I don't see how you can have any actual rational problem with me or anyone posting reports on what's potentially about to happen from reliable sources. I've already addressed, in good faith, your point about trustworthy reporting and people misrepresenting the war by explaining where I got it from so park all this "bro" nonsense. It sounds like you're trying to make out it's coming from some dark corner of Reddit that I've found after a couple spliffs or something. The whole raison d'etre of Bellingcat is exactly because of the rise in disinformation driven by Russian bots and other nefarious actors and propagandists on the Internet. If you choose to believe that you know more than me about the reliability of this organisation that I think you're admitting you've never heard of, then be my guest. As for the "I'll cry about it when it happens" comment, if you've got a problem with people posting about stuff before it's happened then I suppose we best get onto the staff and get all of those prediction leagues and transfer rumours forums shut down. Maybe you're upset that other people are posting stuff which is "misrepresenting the war" but the actual leader of Ukraine seems to be expecting something pretty much along those lines himself: Or does this count as another "mad source bro" misrepresentation too? For the record, I'll happily see all of these sources be proven wrong and look completely stupid for arguing with you if it means less civilian deaths, that should go without saying.

I agree. I have no doubt that they won't do that however. My initial reaction is that I'm just as sick of fuckwits like orange crush posting right wing bullshit from people like that glossy eyed inbred incel PJW, as I am of people misrepresenting this war. Videos like that Ukrainian vehicle crushing that car and hearsay predictions like this one create a very false narrative. No one is sitting in Russias war rooms tweeting accurately their feelings and strategies. So don't tell me about your 'mad source bro trust me' I'll cry for the people of Kyiv being indiscriminately MOABed when it happens, not before. The US used their version of those very same bombs in Afghanistan, which killed civilians too. Just no one cares because they killed brown civilians, and now we have a white vs white war to cry about, all of a sudden civilian casualties and feelings are front and center, rather than an afterthought for the general public.

Little known fact. Finland likely won WW2 for the allies with their stoic defense of their nation, as that fucking imbecile Churchill wanted to fight Germany and Russia at the same time via a Sweden landing. Finland fighting russia to a standstill prevented this (obviously disastrous) plan.

Interesting thread offering a sliver of optimism. Not the first I've seen either. For all the horror, which shouldn't be downplayed, it's worth acknowledging that Putin isn't having things entirely his own way here. Even if he manages to install a puppet leader in Kyiv, there are doubts over whether he can subjugate a sovereign nation of 40 million people.

Russia can fuck off with these threats they are throwing out left, right and centre. The whole worlds army’s should just go to Russia and batter them all.

Interesting to see China's reaction in this conflict with the West only imposing sanctions against Russia, they may sit back with a smile for a while then might think "Well, we might as well invade Taiwan, what's good for the goose is good for the gander". From what I have read the American people are fed up entering a conflict with troops, bullets and bombs and then a lot of countries running America down to the ground, it's good really as the UK always seems to follow the USA in such a move with their tails wagging. No national security interests "First of all, Ukraine isn't in America's neighbourhood. It is not located on the US border. Nor does it host a US military base. It does not have strategic oil reserves, and it's not a major trade partner. But that lack of national interest hasn't stopped former presidents from expending blood and treasure on behalf of others in the past. In 1995 Bill Clinton intervened militarily in the war that followed the collapse of Yugoslavia. And in 2011 Barack Obama did the same in the Libyan civil war, both largely on humanitarian and human rights grounds..." Ukraine conflict: Why Biden won't send troops to Ukraine

I hope this is a parody account because this is genuinely one of the biggest, steaming piles of absolute shite I've seen posted on this forum and that really is saying something. Andrew Windsor served in the military. If it made him a better person and gave him discipline I dread to think how he would have turned out without it. Or is it "woke" to condemn him for befriending the leaders of a paedophile and sex trafficking ring and almost certainly fiddle with underage girls himself?

Turkey wouldn't take that decision unilaterally, it means potential siege of Istanbul