Manchester United Discussion

[MUFC]

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/man-united-garnacho-onana-tweet-27990019

[MUFC]

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, MUFC said:

Lol, I think that would be a hilarious disaster... but one of the biggest criticisms of Ten Hairs is United don't have a defined playing style and look like a collection of random players put together. One thing that's a certainty of Fat Sam coming into any side is he will give them a defined playing style. It'll be an ugly, defense first, style of football... but at least it's a cohesive style of playing.

I don't know what the answer is for United though, it's a very bizarre problem they've managed to create for themselves tbh. There's a number of issues that need to be addressed, I just don't know how they go about prioritising the issues addressed.

The Glazers get a lot of criticism for their ownership of United. And there's some things their tenure as owners of the club that just mark them as awful owners. They take more money out of the club than they've put in (and how much did they really put in if they did a leveraged buyout? It's got to be minimal). They've neglected the infrastructure of the club: Old Trafford is in disrepair, the training facilities and academy are falling behind compared to their competitors. This is going to impact United negatively in the long run in terms of revenue and in terms of the academy being a pipeline for young talent. As money rules football more and more, having an academy that produces first team players is all the more important for clubs not backed by the wealth of an oil exporting nation.

At the same time, for all their criticism... I don't think it can be said that United do not financially back their managers and do not put a priority on improvement of the first team squad. The issue has been entirely with how that significant funding has been spent. This is partially on Woodward, isn't it? But it's also partially on the managers who asked for big funds and then didn't really accomplish anything with those funds.

Chopping and changing managers constantly has also been a massive problem, imo. Rashford is a great example of this. I think he's a player with a fantastic amount of raw ability. He also looks like a player who's development has stagnated to an extent because he's got a new manager every couple of seasons.

But then they've got the issue of Ten Hag. The man was brought in to replicate the good work he'd done at Ajax. The man who's now saying, he can never get United to play like Ajax. Despite bringing in a number of ex-Ajax players, having 18 months to impart his system onto his new squad, and with something like £400m spent on new players to try to implement that system. And somehow 18 months on, United seem to have less of an identity on the pitch than they did in the first days of his time on the pitch.

It's a pretty miserable situation to try to fix at United, tbh. It's a situation brought on by people at the top not thinking about the long-term of the club. Neglecting infrastructure to chase short term success is only really going to pay off if that short term success is achieved. Otherwise, it's just wasteful spending. But sacking another manager after a short period at the club where they can't immediately turn things around... it does nothing to address the instability unless there's a really good long-term plan for who is going to be brought in and how money is going to be spent to make the on-pitch performances better.

I think it's understandable if United want to sack Ten Hag sooner rather than later. I'm not seeing much evidence that he's going to be able to turn things around, I'm seeing more evidence that he's losing faith in himself doing the job he was brought in to do when he's saying things like "United will never play like Ajax." I'm not seeing a manager making signings that... seem to make sense for the short term and long term goals at United. Signings like Antony coming in for big money and looking pretty fucking average don't indicate a great eye for talent. Signing Mount on big wages when it's not clear how exactly he fits in at United don't indicate a great eye for planning. The brand of football he's got going at United don't paint the picture of a man who's got a vision for a club to build into. It seems like a manager going through the motions with an expensively assembled squad.

At the same time, United saw decades of success when they were patient and gave Alex Ferguson time even when United didn't look like they were up to much. I do think stability is an important factor at success at a club that isn't backed by the endless resources that clubs like Chelsea under Abramovich, City with the UAE, PSG with Qatar, etc. don't really need to consider because they don't truly operate like normal football clubs.

But I'm not sure looking at what worked decades ago, when English football was very different, and expecting that kind of stability to work with the current manager is all that realistic. I also think player culture has changed quite a bit - especially at the top clubs.

I thought Ten Hag would be your Klopp. Pretty much each week that's passed since March though and... I'm increasingly more sure that he's actually up to nothing at United other than spending a lot of money and hoping for the best each week. With Klopp it wasn't instant success, but we could very clearly see that he was pushing his ideas out from his brain onto the pitch through the squad - he was changing our system to fit how he wanted us to play, he was cutting out players like Sakho and Balotelli from the squad to make sure the mentality of the squad matched the mentality he wanted. And tbf to Ten Hag - he's tried something similar like that with both Ronaldo and Sancho in terms of trying to change the squad's mentality. But he's not really done much to demonstrate he's actively implementing a set style at United that'll lead to success.

Personally, if I were a United fan.. I'd want Ten Hag gone. I just don't have faith that he can build what he had going for him in the Netherlands here in England. At least not right now with United.

Imo a lot of heads need to roll at United for them to start building upwards back to where they want to be. That includes people above the manager who need to stop neglecting the club's infrastructure. The stadium's quality is important. If it wasn't, clubs wouldn't spend so much money building new stadiums or upgrading their stadiums. The club's training facilities and academy facilities are also important - both from a recruitment perspective as well as developing the players already at the club. And having loads of money to spend each window is great... as long as there's a fucking plan for spending that money. Sack the entire recruitment team, as well, since they've been pretty fucking abysmal in all honesty.

If I were a United executive, I'd be drawing up a shortlist of managers that fit the sort of profile as Ange before he joined Spurs tbh. Managers that aren't the highest profile names and haven't necessarily "proven" themselves at big clubs, but managers who have a track record of implementing a good style that fits in with United's tradition of attacking football. I'd also be looking at clubs around Europe that have an impressive history of recruitment and seeing if I could poach any Directors of Football or Scouts.

And then I'd probably be trying to bring in De Zerbi and Brighton's recruitment team, because in this hypothetical I work for Man Utd, so you can't expect me to look too hard into spending huge fat stacks of cash all at once. And even if that's not proper due diligence in bringing in new people to make good decisions... I think it'd be a hell of a lot more productive than doing whatever the fuck United have been doing.

Having said that, I fully welcome United breaking the glass in case of emergency and bringing in Fat Sam. Laughter is good for the soul, after all.

[Inverted]

If you're going to play reactive long-ball football you might as well get a manager who's good at it.

[MUFC]

[OrangeKhrush]

a few if the man United streamers picked up on ten hags comments about not playing like Ajax and have considered him sackable.  

for me man United don't have that caliber of player and they are in a much harder league, I'm not sure sacking him will net the right result unless man United commit to someone like Emery.

[MUFC]

https://talksport.com/football/1624287/man-utd-adidas-kits-too-tight-too-grey-sir-alex-ferguson/

[OrangeKhrush]

that's a desperate excuse

[RandoEFC+]

United's malaise will never be entirely unfunny but it's also just a bit boring and embarrassing now in a way.

That club is absolutely broken. It's not a coincidence that every player that goes there that's actually good or has massive potential either ends up shite or with "attitude problems". Even Bruno Fernandes, who I don't like and at least features regularly for them and contributes goals and assists, looked like he'd go on to be an elite player when they first signed him and he just seems to have plateaued and stagnated.

I saw the end of last night's match and Ten Hag's interview while I was waiting for the quarter final draw which was supposed to be shortly after it finished. He has no ideas left, you can see it in his body language and hear it in his voice. He probably came to Man Utd because you can't turn Man Utd down and he will have convinced himself that he could make the changes they need, but now he's realised he's walked into a footballing graveyard and he hates his job.

Whether Man Utd leave Ten Hag in post for another decade or keep chopping and changing every 1.5-2 years, nothing will change. The only thing that fixes that club is a change in ownership (a proper one, none of this minority shareholder with seats on the board shite) or someone like Pep to come in with the authority to change the entire culture at the club, but a manager like that will never go to Man Utd because they won't get allowed to do that.

[OrangeKhrush]

there is a story coming out with multiple players falling out with Ten Hag and I think to many dick slapping contests have alienated the team against him.   

I get the Ronaldo one but to be fair Ronaldo made it easy,  he then engaged in dick slapping contests with Maguire, then Sancho and now apparently Varane and Rashford.

I can see them downing tools and getting ten hag sacked, all things come to an end.

I think he fell in love with his own ego, then he signed a bunch of shit players, now it's gone all peared shaped

[Devil]

3 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

there is a story coming out with multiple players falling out with Ten Hag and I think to many dick slapping contests have alienated the team against him.   

I get the Ronaldo one but to be fair Ronaldo made it easy,  he then engaged in dick slapping contests with Maguire, then Sancho and now apparently Varane and Rashford.

I can see them downing tools and getting ten hag sacked, all things come to an end.

I think he fell in love with his own ego, then he signed a bunch of shit players, now it's gone all peared shaped

Dick slapping contests.

What the fucking hell is a dick slapping contest??

ETH has fucked himself up, he's had money and spent it awfully. That said he shouldn't have been given total power to demand players he wanted, Director of football John Murtagh stands in a position where he should be advising on players and potential transfer fees. I'm not having a club of Manchester Uniteds size didn't know enough about Antony the summer we blew 90 million on him. His statistics alone in a weaker league should have at least seen his fee less than half that figure. 

Then there was Mason Mount. His fee was ridiculous for a player in the last year of his contract. Why wasn't ETH told no, why wasn't ETH told that he had three players already in that position with one being the club captain. Total waste of transfer funds yet again.

Then there was the amazing story of how you can downgrade your midfielder when it would seem near impossible to downgrade him. Fred, it had been a long time coming he was sold this summer, constantly giving the ball away for season after season. The day he left I thought, like every United fan they have to replace him. What do they do, they buy a 27 year old Morrocan who's only notable achievement was five games at a World Cup. Ignoring the fact no other team had ever looked at him and he'd spent the majority of his career languishing around the Serie A midtable. 

Why has nobody within the club stopped these crazy decisions. ETH has only himself to blame in all honesty, you couldn't join and F1 race in a Vauxhall Astra, he's bought players from poor standard leagues and sides. They are simply out of their depth in the Premier League, they are the type of players Watfords crazy board would buy for 5 to 10 million quid in the hope they make a profit 2 years down the line. Honestly I'd take relegation if it meant clearing the whole lot and starting a total fresh with youth team players and a new set up behind the scenes and new ownership.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Devil said:

What the fucking hell is a dick slapping contest??

@MUFC

[OrangeKhrush]

13 hours ago, Devil said:

Dick slapping contests.

What the fucking hell is a dick slapping contest??

ETH has fucked himself up, he's had money and spent it awfully. That said he shouldn't have been given total power to demand players he wanted, Director of football John Murtagh stands in a position where he should be advising on players and potential transfer fees. I'm not having a club of Manchester Uniteds size didn't know enough about Antony the summer we blew 90 million on him. His statistics alone in a weaker league should have at least seen his fee less than half that figure. 

Then there was Mason Mount. His fee was ridiculous for a player in the last year of his contract. Why wasn't ETH told no, why wasn't ETH told that he had three players already in that position with one being the club captain. Total waste of transfer funds yet again.

Then there was the amazing story of how you can downgrade your midfielder when it would seem near impossible to downgrade him. Fred, it had been a long time coming he was sold this summer, constantly giving the ball away for season after season. The day he left I thought, like every United fan they have to replace him. What do they do, they buy a 27 year old Morrocan who's only notable achievement was five games at a World Cup. Ignoring the fact no other team had ever looked at him and he'd spent the majority of his career languishing around the Serie A midtable. 

Why has nobody within the club stopped these crazy decisions. ETH has only himself to blame in all honesty, you couldn't join and F1 race in a Vauxhall Astra, he's bought players from poor standard leagues and sides. They are simply out of their depth in the Premier League, they are the type of players Watfords crazy board would buy for 5 to 10 million quid in the hope they make a profit 2 years down the line. Honestly I'd take relegation if it meant clearing the whole lot and starting a total fresh with youth team players and a new set up behind the scenes and new ownership.

 

I will agree on all those points.   the model on how man United are run, recruitment and scouting is all defunct and the egos in that club have created a toxic environment that will prohibit growth.

Sir Alex was unique, he could handle egos he would always end up the big dog and it worked.  Last season Ten Hag had a get together with sir Alex and he waxed lyrical about how he is the next big thing to end city's domination and all that.   Ten Hag believed in his own fable.   

the issue with this is that he has far more enemies than friends in the dressing room, the issue here is 1) the players are not good enough to sell on and nobody wants them which leads to 2) they can get ten hag sacked by simply downing tools which means Ten Hag has essentially lost, these players will out last him.   the only window ten hag had was the summer to get rid of the cancer, that window is gone and the Wolves are out.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Ten Hag giving Rashford shit for having a pre-planned birthday party that didn’t interfere with him showing up to training the next day after a loss is fucking ridiculous to me.

What he’s supposed to cancel having a social life because of a loss? Ffs, it didn’t impact him turning up like he’s supposed to. United being subpar isn’t due to any one player.

[Stan]

7 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Ten Hag giving Rashford shit for having a pre-planned birthday party that didn’t interfere with him showing up to training the next day after a loss is fucking ridiculous to me.

What he’s supposed to cancel having a social life because of a loss? Ffs, it didn’t impact him turning up like he’s supposed to. United being subpar isn’t due to any one player.

Yeah that pissed me off reading about it. The guy is celebrating his birthday ffs. He's not a robot! 

Ten Hag didn't need to call it unacceptable. Shouldn't have even been an issue and he's made it a bigger thing saying that. Doubt there'd have been so much uproar if they were doing well... 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Stan said:

Yeah that pissed me off reading about it. The guy is celebrating his birthday ffs. He's not a robot! 

Ten Hag didn't need to call it unacceptable. Shouldn't have even been an issue and he's made it a bigger thing saying that. Doubt there'd have been so much uproar if they were doing well... 

If he turned up the next day still drunk from the night before or something, maybe I’d understand it more. But this just seems like a manager struggling and wanting to blame one of his players for “not being professional” even though he’s done something completely normal.

Throwing a player under the bus for having a birthday party on their birthday is just being an arsehole.

Rashford’s not the one trying to force out the CB that’s arguably been United’s best player this season, he’s not the one that’s signed Antony for about 5x what he’s worth. He’s not the one picking dogshit tactics or meant to be getting United to look like they’ve got some sort of identity or system they’re trying to work towards having & failing.

I think when this guy gets the sack, a lot of United players are going to feel relieved.

[Stan]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If he turned up the next day still drunk from the night before or something, maybe I’d understand it more. But this just seems like a manager struggling and wanting to blame one of his players for “not being professional” even though he’s done something completely normal.

Throwing a player under the bus for having a birthday party on their birthday is just being an arsehole.

Rashford’s not the one trying to force out the CB that’s arguably been United’s best player this season, he’s not the one that’s signed Antony for about 5x what he’s worth. He’s not the one picking dogshit tactics or meant to be getting United to look like they’ve got some sort of identity or system they’re trying to work towards having & failing.

I think when this guy gets the sack, a lot of United players are going to feel relieved.

Sounds like it.

I don't deny that there needs to be a culture of discipline back into the club, but it appears it starts way above the players for that culture to change.

Players will be scapegoats. Just how it is. But the media don't half make mountains out of molehills with some players.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

Sounds like it.

I don't deny that there needs to be a culture of discipline back into the club, but it appears it starts way above the players for that culture to change.

Players will be scapegoats. Just how it is. But the media don't half make mountains out of molehills with some players.

The weirdest thing about this attempt to instill discipline back into the club with this instance is… I think there’s a case Rashford turning up to training on time is an example of discipline. He had his party, he didn’t let it get in the way of his professional obligations.

He’s not like Sancho routinely showing up late, which is fair enough to call out publicly. He’s demonstrated work-life balance.

It’s weird to feel bad for a Man Utd player, but I feel for Rashford tbh. He’s got loads of potential that’s not really been given the opportunity to show the way it probably could at a more stable club. I don’t think going through 4-5 managers in however many years is great for a player’s development. And now he’s getting treated as though his birthday party has some kind of connection to Ten Hag’s United looking shit.

Seems like Ten Hag liked Greenwood and will defend Antony (and even call him a fighter, lol), so maybe to get back on his good side he’s expecting Rashford to punch a woman.

[Dave]

 

Save money on Ten Hag's wages and get fans to write tactics on bed sheets.

[Inverted]

Stuff like the Rashford comments further reinforce the feeling that ETH isn't actually about discipline and is more just about arbitrarily creating conflict for his own sake - trying to look authoritative, trying to make the players look worse, trying to create an impression that he's in control, whatever.

[Honey Honey]

In defence and criticism of Ten Hag the performances match the line up.

[Dave]

Some rumours that Dougie Freedman is off to Man United.

He's very meticulous when it comes to signing players, he'd rather not sign anybody than sign the wrong player, so the days of you signing duds would at least be over.

His favoured approach of waiting until the end of the window to conclude deals would infuriate everybody though, so I wonder if he'd alter that given the vast sums of money at his disposal and the increased media spotlight.

Hopefully you're still willing to pay Man United prices for Guehi, Olise and Eze.

[MUFC]

Saudi’s are willing to stump up €100 million for Bruno.

[MUFC]

If true, is there an end to this shit show?

https://www.football365.com/news/man-utd-champions-league-ban-thanks-sir-jim-ratcliffe-uefa-confirms

[OrangeKhrush]

read that Varane will leave end of season due to a fallout with Ten Hag.