Liverpool 5-3 Chelsea - Wednesday 22nd July, 2020

[Mel81x+]

8 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

Our defensive issues are an odd one as you can't really put it down to anything really tactically, you can blame Lampard a little for the set pieces but apart from that it just seems to be individual errors all the time. If we had been good at defending set-pieces and had a decent keeper, maybe that alone could have made a significant difference this season. I think our centre backs are capable of much better but aren't the biggest problem and perhaps with someone commanding behind them and with more protection in front, they'd be good enough. I also hope the improvements in attack and the improvements hopefully still to come in offensive areas will also allow us to take more pressure off the backline, if we create and score more, naturally we'll find ourselves in better positions during games. A lot of the first half of the season especially was us failing to take our chances when they came which allowed teams to stay in games.

We've had Kepa now for two seasons. The first season was a mixed bag, looked very good and assuring for periods but also not up to the standards in other moments. This second season though from him has been a car crash. There's been a lot of goals this season that he probably couldn't do anything about but it's the fact that he hasn't really been there when we needed him, we can't rely on him. The reality is nowadays is that if there's a good enough chance for the opposition, you're thinking it's probably going in. A decision will need to be made regarding his future in the summer and it's going to be a big one. I don't think Kepa's career is over, there have always been signs of there being a very good keeper in him but I don't think we're in a position to wait at the moment even despite the money we spent on him. A change of environment might suit him and he might get back to living up to his potential but the reality is we're getting to or have gone past the point of waiting for him.

@Dr. Gonzo @Mel81x @LFCMadLad @LFCMike

I've asked you this before but you had defensive issues in Klopp's first few seasons? What changed?

The answer really I think isn't just the better players its also finding players who compliment each other's style of play. VVD isn't the fastest defender out there but pair him with Gomez who's willing to run and play the outward defender having someone like VVD at the back and you've got a very dynamic defensive combination. Adding Fabinho at the top of that block then allows you to have someone play the aggressive disruptor and when this trio are on song its very hard to actually get much past the final third into the box because you're then forced to go to the wings. I also think its the style of play that suits the way they play defensively. In the first few years people said this was a team that had a lot of goals in them (and they still do) but they were very shaky defensively and that didn't matter because they'd outscore opponents instead of shutting them down. That's where Alisson became critical and I think him and VVD have a really good understanding of how to play out from the back.

Then you have the fullbacks and they have the capability and pace to move up and down switching between attack and defense. The other gaining factor is that we've got everyone playing pressing defense and it doesn't matter if you're in the attacking third you must press the ball and alleviate pressure from your backline. A lot of praise goes to the front three and the back line but that midfield does so much work off-screen that allows both the top and bottom blocks to operate the way they do. Players like Henderson and Gini are always hustling to get the ball back now instead of trying to push the ball upwards and thats something that has changed over time. 

[RandoEFC+]

Just caught up on the highlights and I've not read the whole thread so I don't know what people think but Kepa really isn't good enough for Chelsea. Apart from Firmino's header and maybe the close range goal from Wijnaldum he has to do better on every single Liverpool goal last night. Unless he shows serious improvement, £70m for him looks like one of the howlers of the decade.

[RandoEFC+]

10 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Opta oe one word slogans at the end of sentences are beyond turgid. Wankfest. 

I cringed a bit at "Citadel". I've never really noticed this before but now I think about it I agree it's pretty cringeworthy in general that they always do it. 

[Stan]

16 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Just caught up on the highlights and I've not read the whole thread so I don't know what people think but Kepa really isn't good enough for Chelsea. Apart from Firmino's header and maybe the close range goal from Wijnaldum he has to do better on every single Liverpool goal last night. Unless he shows serious improvement, £70m for him looks like one of the howlers of the decade.

That one where the cross went over 3 Chelsea players and he left the ball even though it was about 2 yards out from the goal was crazy. Van Dijk should have scored but how Kepa isn't collecting that is beyond me. 

[LFCMadLad]

3 hours ago, Mel81x said:

The answer really I think isn't just the better players its also finding players who compliment each other's style of play. VVD isn't the fastest defender out there but pair him with Gomez who's willing to run and play the outward defender having someone like VVD at the back and you've got a very dynamic defensive combination. Adding Fabinho at the top of that block then allows you to have someone play the aggressive disruptor and when this trio are on song its very hard to actually get much past the final third into the box because you're then forced to go to the wings. I also think its the style of play that suits the way they play defensively. In the first few years people said this was a team that had a lot of goals in them (and they still do) but they were very shaky defensively and that didn't matter because they'd outscore opponents instead of shutting them down. That's where Alisson became critical and I think him and VVD have a really good understanding of how to play out from the back.

Then you have the fullbacks and they have the capability and pace to move up and down switching between attack and defense. The other gaining factor is that we've got everyone playing pressing defense and it doesn't matter if you're in the attacking third you must press the ball and alleviate pressure from your backline. A lot of praise goes to the front three and the back line but that midfield does so much work off-screen that allows both the top and bottom blocks to operate the way they do. Players like Henderson and Gini are always hustling to get the ball back now instead of trying to push the ball upwards and thats something that has changed over time. 

VVD isnt the fastest? He's like lightening mate haha 

Fastest Liverpool players

• Joe Gomez - 21.6mph.
• Virgil van Dijk - 21.5mph.
• Sadio Mane - 21.4mph.
• Trent Alexander-Arnold - 21.1mph.
• Andy Robertson - 21mph.

[LFCMike]

23 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

VVD isnt the fastest? He's like lightening mate haha 

Fastest Liverpool players

• Joe Gomez - 21.6mph.
• Virgil van Dijk - 21.5mph.
• Sadio Mane - 21.4mph.
• Trent Alexander-Arnold - 21.1mph.
• Andy Robertson - 21mph.

Remember that time he gave Traore a head start and then came back and just brushed him aside

[Mel81x+]

34 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

VVD isnt the fastest? He's like lightening mate haha 

Fastest Liverpool players

• Joe Gomez - 21.6mph.
• Virgil van Dijk - 21.5mph.
• Sadio Mane - 21.4mph.
• Trent Alexander-Arnold - 21.1mph.
• Andy Robertson - 21mph.

Was going off what I see and maybe he makes it look a lot like his positioning is better than his speed but jesus that is fast for a CB. 

[LFCMadLad]

10 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Remember that time he gave Traore a head start and then came back and just brushed him aside

Yeah, he's a monster.

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, Mel81x said:

Was going off what I see and maybe he makes it look a lot like his positioning is better than his speed but jesus that is fast for a CB. 

To be honest I didnt realise he was as fast as that. Our top 5 fastest players is made up of our back 4 and Mane. Thats ridiculous 

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

That one where the cross went over 3 Chelsea players and he left the ball even though it was about 2 yards out from the goal was crazy. Van Dijk should have scored but how Kepa isn't collecting that is beyond me. 

Yeah I didn't even see that. The first goal is unstoppable, fair enough, the Trent free kick was good but not really in the top corner and from that far out he has to be getting across. Poor reflexes on the third, fourth goal was more on the defenders then not a strong enough hand on the fifth. If Pickford put in that performance I'd be fuming about it and people would be going on about it for a week. Kepa is playing for a club with higher expectations and cost more than twice as much as Pickford. They're actually very similar in that they're not the biggest but they were promising, young goalkeepers who looked capable of making up for it with their other attributes, but don't really seem to have developed and if anything have declined slightly over the last two years.

[The Artful Dodger]

I think the free kick is harsh to criticise, it's top quality, bends outside the line of the post and curves in. It's strange that if he'd dived and not got there, nobody would be criticising it. We just like to see 'effort' don't we, no matter how in vain.

It also shouldn't have been a free kick.

[LFCMadLad]

15 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I think the free kick is harsh to criticise, it's top quality, bends outside the line of the post and curves in. It's strange that if he'd dived and not got there, nobody would be criticising it. We just like to see 'effort' don't we, no matter how in vain.

It also shouldn't have been a free kick.

Yeah, the camera angle facing goal makes it seem that Kepa might have got there if he had dived. The camera angle from behind the goal though (the goalkeeprs view) shows he had absolutely no chance of getting it. Superb strike by Trent. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 hour ago, LFCMadLad said:

To be honest I didnt realise he was as fast as that. Our top 5 fastest players is made up of our back 4 and Mane. Thats ridiculous 

Thats the highest speed they get clocked at in a game right? the reason that it's almost all defenders is attackers rarely sprint lung bustingly off the ball, whereas defenders often have to turn and sprint. I think if lined up and had to run 100 meters, with a mark at the 30 meter and 50 meter mark, you'd get very different results 

[LFCMadLad]

3 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Thats the highest speed they get clocked at in a game right? the reason that it's almost all defenders is attackers rarely sprint lung bustingly off the ball, whereas defenders often have to turn and sprint. I think if lined up and had to run 100 meters, with a mark at the 30 meter and 50 meter mark, you'd get very different results 

Maybe, but it does show that all our defenders are really really fast nonetheless.

[Mel81x+]

33 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Thats the highest speed they get clocked at in a game right? the reason that it's almost all defenders is attackers rarely sprint lung bustingly off the ball, whereas defenders often have to turn and sprint. I think if lined up and had to run 100 meters, with a mark at the 30 meter and 50 meter mark, you'd get very different results 

But isn't that also true for attackers in teams that counter-attack by pushing the ball over defenses? You'd imagine that someone trying to play catchup and cross a defender is also pushing as hard to get to the ball? I could be wrong of course. 

[carefreeluke]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

Yeah I didn't even see that. The first goal is unstoppable, fair enough, the Trent free kick was good but not really in the top corner and from that far out he has to be getting across. Poor reflexes on the third, fourth goal was more on the defenders then not a strong enough hand on the fifth. If Pickford put in that performance I'd be fuming about it and people would be going on about it for a week. Kepa is playing for a club with higher expectations and cost more than twice as much as Pickford. They're actually very similar in that they're not the biggest but they were promising, young goalkeepers who looked capable of making up for it with their other attributes, but don't really seem to have developed and if anything have declined slightly over the last two years.

I don't think you can blame him that much for all the goals really. It's just that a lot of Chelsea fans are realising that he's not really saving us when we need him, I can probably count on one hand the number of decent stops he's made this season, stops that are worth the money we paid for him. He's not even that good with the ball at his feet either which seemed to be one of the reasons we bought him in the first place. The most worrying moment with him last night was with one of the Liverpool corners in the final few minutes where you could hear the Chelsea players or staff shout for him to come and collect the ball and he completely froze on the goal line.

Remember he nearly signed for Real Madrid instead, would have been interesting to have seen how he would have done there. If his performances had been similar, I'd imagine he would have been playing second fiddle a lot more often for Madrid than he is here. 

[Cicero]

36 minutes ago, carefreeluke said:

I don't think you can blame him that much for all the goals really. It's just that a lot of Chelsea fans are realising that he's not really saving us when we need him, I can probably count on one hand the number of decent stops he's made this season, stops that are worth the money we paid for him. He's not even that good with the ball at his feet either which seemed to be one of the reasons we bought him in the first place. The most worrying moment with him last night was with one of the Liverpool corners in the final few minutes where you could hear the Chelsea players or staff shout for him to come and collect the ball and he completely froze on the goal line.

Remember he nearly signed for Real Madrid instead, would have been interesting to have seen how he would have done there. If his performances had been similar, I'd imagine he would have been playing second fiddle a lot more often for Madrid than he is here. 

I've defended him all season but its clear now he is a problem. Virtually any clean strike against him, its a goal. It's happened all season and it gives the side no confidence and only builds pressure on our defenders. Add to the fact he doesn't command the box or even at times gets the fundamentals right.  I think he's gone. 

With Sarri, it was during the Arsenal game at home, when Arsenal cut us open like 7 times in the opening 15 minutes. Sarri then switched to risk averse possession football. This helped build pressure off of our back line given we limited the chances the opposition had the ball to attack. However, this type of game plan had our attack suffer as a result, given the slow build up. 

Lampard on the other hand is doing the exact opposite. He is trying to get the best out of our attack first by creating a fast build up. Fix the attack before we take care of the defence. Under both styles and tactics, we find our selves in almost the same possession a year apart. 

Another trade off. 

 

 

[carefreeluke]

55 minutes ago, Cicero said:

 

48 minutes ago, Cicero said:

I've defended him all season but its clear now he is a problem. Virtually any clean strike against him, its a goal. It's happened all season and it gives the side no confidence and only builds pressure on our defenders. Add to the fact he doesn't command the box or even at times gets the fundamentals right.  I think he's gone. 

With Sarri, it was during the Arsenal game at home, when Arsenal cut us open like 7 times in the opening 15 minutes. Sarri then switched to risk averse possession football. This helped build pressure off of our back line given we limited the chances the opposition had the ball to attack. However, this type of game plan had our attack suffer as a result, given the slow build up. 

Lampard on the other hand is doing the exact opposite. He is trying to get the best out of our attack first by creating a fast build up. Fix the attack before we take care of the defence. Under both styles and tactics, we find our selves in almost the same possession a year apart. 

Another trade off. 

 

 

Looking at his Chelsea career so far, probably one of the worst signings in EPL history and surprised it hasn't received more stick. For whatever reason and down to various factors, it hasn't worked out and I think we've seen enough of him now to say we need someone else for the time being. Considering the money we spent on him, I'd loan him out to see if he can regain any confidence and form, ideally to a Premier League team but I doubt anyone would take him. At the moment, I don't think it's worth risking having him play a significant part of next season for us,  I don't think he's finished and he could come good but he probably needs a new environment. I wouldn't sell him though, a loan if possible.

[Cicero]

Just now, carefreeluke said:

Probably one of the worst signings in EPL history and surprised it hasn't received more stick. For whatever reason and down to various factors, it hasn't worked out and I think we've seen enough of him now to say we need someone else for the time being. Considering the money we spent on him, I'd loan him out to see if he can regain any confidence and form, ideally to a Premier League team but I doubt anyone would take him. At the moment, I don't think it's worth risking having him play a significant part of next season for us,  I don't think he's finished and he could come good but he probably needs a new environment. I wouldn't sell him though, a loan if possible.

Probably because of the circumstances. Courtois really fucked us there. 

I'd agree on that last bit. 

[Dan+]

Nice work Liverpool. I really don't think any of Leicester, Chelsea or Manchester United deserve top 4 really, quite amazing that two of the three will get it. It's been a very, very weak year this year I think.

[carefreeluke]

4 hours ago, Dan said:

Nice work Liverpool. I really don't think any of Leicester, Chelsea or Manchester United deserve top 4 really, quite amazing that two of the three will get it. It's been a very, very weak year this year I think.

Remember the same was said last year mate about the teams that were competing for the top four outside of City and Liverpool of course. It was a case of the teams more or less stumbling across the finish line rather than deserving those positions outright. I guess generally the teams fighting for those places aren't necessarily the best teams in the league and some inconsistency is to be expected but the way it's gone this season, us, you lot and Man United can only pin the blame on ourselves if we end up missing out given the positions we've been in at times this season and the games where we've dropped points. West Ham have taken 6 points off us for example and I know it's the other end of the spectrum but Man United have taken 6 off us, if we had drawn those games against Man United for example,  given that they are competing with us, it would have been a lot different but I guess every team can look back and think similarly. 

I remember at the end of last season thinking that we had done well to get third but at the same time we were lucky Arsenal and Spurs started to self-destruct a bit. If I remember correctly (can't be asked to research it), Spurs had a terrible run of form under Poch in 2020 and Arsenal started dropping points as well in stupid games. Interestingly, both clubs find themselves now with different managers in the following season.

[DeadLinesman]

13 hours ago, Dan said:

Nice work Liverpool. I really don't think any of Leicester, Chelsea or Manchester United deserve top 4 really, quite amazing that two of the three will get it. It's been a very, very weak year this year I think.

Why would teams that get less points deserve to be higher in the league? 

[DeadLinesman]

8 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

Remember the same was said last year mate about the teams that were competing for the top four outside of City and Liverpool of course. It was a case of the teams more or less stumbling across the finish line rather than deserving those positions outright. I guess generally the teams fighting for those places aren't necessarily the best teams in the league and some inconsistency is to be expected but the way it's gone this season, us, you lot and Man United can only pin the blame on ourselves if we end up missing out given the positions we've been in at times this season and the games where we've dropped points. West Ham have taken 6 points off us for example and I know it's the other end of the spectrum but Man United have taken 6 off us, if we had drawn those games against Man United for example,  given that they are competing with us, it would have been a lot different but I guess every team can look back and think similarly. 

I remember at the end of last season thinking that we had done well to get third but at the same time we were lucky Arsenal and Spurs started to self-destruct a bit. If I remember correctly (can't be asked to research it), Spurs had a terrible run of form under Poch in 2020 and Arsenal started dropping points as well in stupid games. Interestingly, both clubs find themselves now with different managers in the following season.

And if United had turned half the stupid draws into wins, we’d have been out of sight in third place.

[Dan+]

12 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

Remember the same was said last year mate about the teams that were competing for the top four outside of City and Liverpool of course. It was a case of the teams more or less stumbling across the finish line rather than deserving those positions outright. I guess generally the teams fighting for those places aren't necessarily the best teams in the league and some inconsistency is to be expected but the way it's gone this season, us, you lot and Man United can only pin the blame on ourselves if we end up missing out given the positions we've been in at times this season and the games where we've dropped points. West Ham have taken 6 points off us for example and I know it's the other end of the spectrum but Man United have taken 6 off us, if we had drawn those games against Man United for example,  given that they are competing with us, it would have been a lot different but I guess every team can look back and think similarly. 

I remember at the end of last season thinking that we had done well to get third but at the same time we were lucky Arsenal and Spurs started to self-destruct a bit. If I remember correctly (can't be asked to research it), Spurs had a terrible run of form under Poch in 2020 and Arsenal started dropping points as well in stupid games. Interestingly, both clubs find themselves now with different managers in the following season.

That's basically what I mean, I don't feel like we've really earned it if we do it (got this sneaky feeling we're going to draw and you lose Sunday), this surely will be about the lowest number of points 3rd has finished on, I feel like most years none of us three would get in.

[Stan]

14 minutes ago, Dan said:

That's basically what I mean, I don't feel like we've really earned it if we do it (got this sneaky feeling we're going to draw and you lose Sunday), this surely will be about the lowest number of points 3rd has finished on, I feel like most years none of us three would get in.

Yeah I can't remember last time a side got below 70 pts for 3rd. Usually around 75 even, and rarely 80+.