Russia and Ukraine

[Dr. Gonzo]

20 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The Telegraph reporting that funding for Ukraine is going to run out and public support has waned.

Vitali Klitchcko now mayor of Kiev says public support for Zelensky is low, with Ukrainians believing they have been played.

Russia was prepared to accept Ukraine's proposal for peace, this involved Ukraine walking back on NATO, Boris Johnson was part of many eastern dignitaries that scuppered the deal on "unlimited support".  the west lied and Ukrainians died.

This is a big fat L for the West with Germany longing for that nice cheap gas back, it's just a pity the US destroyed Nordstream, now they have to settle for expensive American gas that comes on ships in lower quantity and much longer time.

I'm pretty sure Europe's still buying Russian oil and gas tbh. They're just buying from Azerbaijan (who have their own oil and gas, but also buy shitloads of both from Russia) and pretending none of it came from Russia.

[OrangeKhrush]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'm pretty sure Europe's still buying Russian oil and gas tbh. They're just buying from Azerbaijan (who have their own oil and gas, but also buy shitloads of both from Russia) and pretending none of it came from Russia.

ah the ol "you can't see me" play

[Goku de la Boca]

I just saw this map and needed to share it, places where "socialism and communism" worked.

Can the Germans confirm to me if it was actually successful in the east? Also having Cambodia on there is just denying atrocities committed in a regime that wasn't even powerful internationally as Vietnam disposed of them easily.

I'm not entirely convinced it worked in Bolivia either to be honest. It helped some of the more rural towns but brought down the rest.

 

[OrangeKhrush]

23 minutes ago, Goku de la Boca said:

I just saw this map and needed to share it, places where "socialism and communism" worked.

Can the Germans confirm to me if it was actually successful in the east? Also having Cambodia on there is just denying atrocities committed in a regime that wasn't even powerful internationally as Vietnam disposed of them easily.

I'm not entirely convinced it worked in Bolivia either to be honest. It helped some of the more rural towns but brought down the rest.

 

East and West Germany were proof that communism fails.  West Germany thrived while East Germany didn't.  Socialism as in the communistic version never works and never will work.

when I see the globalist front spin the "you will own nothing but be happy" line,  I am go fuck yourself with a pineapple.

[Spike]

1 hour ago, Goku de la Boca said:

I just saw this map and needed to share it, places where "socialism and communism" worked.

Can the Germans confirm to me if it was actually successful in the east? Also having Cambodia on there is just denying atrocities committed in a regime that wasn't even powerful internationally as Vietnam disposed of them easily.

I'm not entirely convinced it worked in Bolivia either to be honest. It helped some of the more rural towns but brought down the rest.

 

It worked for the most part in east Germany up until the late 70s and 80s where they got a bit weird. East Germany wasn’t properly reintegrated and is still lagging behind the rest of the country. There is nuance to every situation and things can’t be reduced to ‘failure/success’, well what if something works for thirty years and fails for ten? Then it’s both right? I think among older people there is a sense of nostalgia for the DDR, despite its failings.

West Germany thrived because it was also propped up by the USA and external funding, I don’t think the eastern bloc ever got that sort of funding from Russia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/central-european-history/article/abs/coldwar-economics-the-use-of-marshall-plan-counterpart-funds-in-germany-19481960/BEAEFCDA02A37D21E1556E3713BC2A46

Edited December 5, 2023 by Spike

[Michael]

14 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The Telegraph reporting that funding for Ukraine is going to run out and public support has waned.

Vitali Klitchcko now mayor of Kiev says public support for Zelensky is low, with Ukrainians believing they have been played.

Russia was prepared to accept Ukraine's proposal for peace, this involved Ukraine walking back on NATO, Boris Johnson was part of many eastern dignitaries that scuppered the deal on "unlimited support".  the west lied and Ukrainians died.

This is a big fat L for the West with Germany longing for that nice cheap gas back, it's just a pity the US destroyed Nordstream, now they have to settle for expensive American gas that comes on ships in lower quantity and much longer time.

I read this yesterday and I think that it will be really depressing if it turns out that the West will not fulfil their promises to Ukraine. Put yourself in Zelensky's position and that of the majority of Ukrainians. Russia has invaded 3 regions of your country since 2014, then on February the 24th, 2022, they start a mass invasion of your country. Naturally you are going to try and fight back. Then a peace deal was proposed in April 2022, but Johnson and the West come in and reassure Zelensky and the Ukrainian people, that the West has their full backing. The West helps Ukraine by supplying them with some great modern weapons(not near enough mind you) and they help with the training of Ukrainian soldiers. I am sure that most leaders in Zelensky's position would have done exactly the same thing in April 2022. Why would you go ahead with a peace deal with the aggressor country, that's just tried to take over your country and topple the government, when you have the supposed full backing of the West? The West who promised to support you with weapons until Ukrainian victory is achieved.

For the West to now go back on their promise of "unlimited support", would be a great act of treachery. Just think of all the lives lost in the last 2 years and for what? No peace deal in the near future, is going to go down well with any Ukrainians, when they could have agreed a similar peace deal in April 2022, before thousands of lives were lost. The whole reason most Ukrainians agreed to continue the fight in this war and to sacrifice their husbands and sons, was so that Ukraine could get back all of their territories and kick the Russians out. For the West to stop backing Ukraine now, would mean that all of those lives lost, would have been in vain and that would be a real travesty.

Zelensky has been seen by Ukrainians as a great leader during the course of this war, but if he were to settle for a peace deal at this stage, then the public opinion of him in Ukraine would completely change. It would be a real sad day, if indeed the West don't keep to their word as far as the war in Ukraine is concerned.

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Michael said:

I read this yesterday and I think that it will be really depressing if it turns out that the West will not fulfil their promises to Ukraine. Put yourself in Zelensky's position and that of the majority of Ukrainians. Russia has invaded 3 regions of your country since 2014, then on February the 24th, 2022, they start a mass invasion of your country. Naturally you are going to try and fight back. Then a peace deal was proposed in April 2022, but Johnson and the West come in and reassure Zelensky and the Ukrainian people, that the West has their full backing. The West helps Ukraine by supplying them with some great modern weapons(not near enough mind you) and they help with the training of Ukrainian soldiers. I am sure that most leaders in Zelensky's position would have done exactly the same thing in April 2022. Why would you go ahead with a peace deal with the aggressor country, that's just tried to take over your country and topple the government, when you have the supposed full backing of the West? The West who promised to support you with weapons until Ukrainian victory is achieved.

For the West to now go back on their promise of "unlimited support", would be a great act of treachery. Just think of all the lives lost in the last 2 years and for what? No peace deal in the near future, is going to go down well with any Ukrainians, when they could have agreed a similar peace deal in April 2022, before thousands of lives were lost. The whole reason most Ukrainians agreed to continue the fight in this war and to sacrifice their husbands and sons, was so that Ukraine could get back all of their territories and kick the Russians out. For the West to stop backing Ukraine now, would mean that all of those lives lost, would have been in vain and that would be a real travesty.

Zelensky has been seen by Ukrainians as a great leader during the course of this war, but if he were to settle for a peace deal at this stage, then the public opinion of him in Ukraine would completely change. It would be a real sad day, if indeed the West don't keep to their word as far as the war in Ukraine is concerned.

This war was the ego of Zelensky and Biden v Putin and I think Ukrainians got played like a bad hand.  I have not wanted this war,  I have been calling for concessions and peace deals since last April.   In a war of attrition Russia will outlast them while the west is counting the cost of a war with a nation the size of russia. 

Zelensky started a hero and bravado leader,  he then turned into an ego fuelled autocrat that imprisoned political rivals and wanted to suspend elections.   As per Viltali Klitchko his reputation is badly damaged an he would lose in an election bid.   

Maye with some good negotiating,  Russia will cede back some of the Donbas,  and keep Crimea which is there only thing they really wanted. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by OrangeKhrush

[MUFC]

 

[Azeem]

U.S had three options when this started

1. Treat it like an actual war

2. Keep sending low-medium efficiency weapons to drag the war without Ukraine either winning or loosing

3. Disengage and leave Ukraine to its own

They were doing the option 2 but the situation in Israel has taken that off the table. Now they must either go for 1 or 3

[OrangeKhrush]

With a biden administration,  nobody respects him,  he can however go suck up to china. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

15 hours ago, Beelzebub said:

U.S had three options when this started

1. Treat it like an actual war

2. Keep sending low-medium efficiency weapons to drag the war without Ukraine either winning or loosing

3. Disengage and leave Ukraine to its own

They were doing the option 2 but the situation in Israel has taken that off the table. Now they must either go for 1 or 3

I think options 1 and 3 bring the world closer to world war 3, so that's not great.

[Azeem]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think options 1 and 3 bring the world closer to world war 3, so that's not great.

Slowly and steadily.

[Azeem]

Future lesson for anyone who wants to pick a fight with U.S

a) Start the war you want to fight

b) Fight for a while. Even being average would do

c) Pay someone to attack Israel

d) Wait until U.S attentions are completely diverted to the favorite child

e) You win by submission

China should hire me for Taiwan. I would win it for them using this strategy !

[Azeem]

 

[Azeem]

Massive missile strikes across Kyiv.

[Michael]

On 02/01/2024 at 10:04, Beelzebub said:

Massive missile strikes across Kyiv.

They have no regard for the innocent, they are destroying Ukrainian cities with their missile strikes.

[Azeem]

Ukraine is now fucked as a country for eons regardless of how this ends. Even Afghanistan is making a recovery because it's now firmly a no man's land left alone by everyone after consecutive global powers strategically failed there.

Ukraine will never be left alone. 

[Michael]

2 hours ago, Beelzebub said:

Ukraine is now fucked as a country for eons regardless of how this ends. Even Afghanistan is making a recovery because it's now firmly a no man's land left alone by everyone after consecutive global powers strategically failed there.

Ukraine will never be left alone. 

Ukraine's future depends on how much the West are willing to help them militarily. So far, the West has not helped them enough. With enough of the right weaponry, do you not think that Ukraine can turn this war in their favour? There are many men willing to fight to defend Ukraine and Europe, they just need more weapons, fighter jets and tanks. Kicking Russia out of Ukraine and them joining NATO is the only way Ukraine will be left alone.

What are the alternatives to this? Ukraine keeps fighting with not enough weaponry, fighter jets and tanks and continues to lose more lives without making much headway on the battle fields. Or Ukraine tries to sign a peace-deal with Russia for a ceasefire, which will inevitably involve Ukraine accepting the Russian presence in Ukraine. This option will definitely mean that Ukraine never gets left alone. Ultimately, any potential peace deal will also give Russia time to regroup and attempt further attacks at gaining more Ukrainian territory in the future, as Russia has proven time and again that they cannot be trusted. It's a real sad situation that we have in Ukraine.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, Michael said:

Ukraine's future depends on how much the West are willing to help them militarily. So far, the West has not helped them enough. With enough of the right weaponry, do you not think that Ukraine can turn this war in their favour? There are many men willing to fight to defend Ukraine and Europe, they just need more weapons, fighter jets and tanks. Kicking Russia out of Ukraine and them joining NATO is the only way Ukraine will be left alone.

What are the alternatives to this? Ukraine keeps fighting with not enough weaponry, fighter jets and tanks and continues to lose more lives without making much headway on the battle fields. Or Ukraine tries to sign a peace-deal with Russia for a ceasefire, which will inevitably involve Ukraine accepting the Russian presence in Ukraine. This option will definitely mean that Ukraine never gets left alone. Ultimately, any potential peace deal will also give Russia time to regroup and attempt further attacks at gaining more Ukrainian territory in the future, as Russia has proven time and again that they cannot be trusted. It's a real sad situation that we have in Ukraine.

And I think with Putin, it's been shown if there's no willpower from the west to push back - he will keep expanding into Europe. When he sent troops into Georgia, he didn't get much pushback from the west. When he first invaded Ukraine in 2014 and seized Crimea, he got away with it with minimal pushback from the west at all.

When he was massing troops on the border of Ukraine before this more recent invasion, while the US and UK were saying "we can see what you're doing on satellite images" he would go before the world and say "there's no chance of us invading, I have no idea what these countries are talking about" and that was DAYS before he sent Russians in to invade.

If he thinks the West's appetite to help Ukraine defend itself has finally been quelled, he's going to keep trying to expand. What does peace between Russia and Ukraine look like if not for the west? Total capitulation of Zelensky's government and being replaced by a puppet? Will Ukraine no longer be a sovereign nation? Will Putin try expansionist claims into NATO member countries?

I would have thought that World War 2 would have been a good lesson on why expansionist dictators should not be appeased - but here we are, considering whether or not Putin will be allowed to use aggression to further his expansionist aims.

But as to your first question, do I think enough of the right weaponry for Ukrainian troops is enough? I'm really not sure. I think it could cause an endless stalemate that leads to decades of war - but Ukraine doesn't have the same defensible terrain as other countries to where I think it could definitively turn the tide against an invader with much more manpower. Simply put, I'm not sure Ukraine has the manpower to win a war of attrition against Russia even if armed with loads and loads of the best weaponry available to it in the world. It would be different, imo, if Russia had more outspoken dissent against Putin's rule and the war - but Putin enjoys large support in Russia and dissidents in Russia seem to genuinely fear him more than dissidents of other authoritarian nations that don't enjoy western support.

[Michael]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

And I think with Putin, it's been shown if there's no willpower from the west to push back - he will keep expanding into Europe. When he sent troops into Georgia, he didn't get much pushback from the west. When he first invaded Ukraine in 2014 and seized Crimea, he got away with it with minimal pushback from the west at all.

When he was massing troops on the border of Ukraine before this more recent invasion, while the US and UK were saying "we can see what you're doing on satellite images" he would go before the world and say "there's no chance of us invading, I have no idea what these countries are talking about" and that was DAYS before he sent Russians in to invade.

If he thinks the West's appetite to help Ukraine defend itself has finally been quelled, he's going to keep trying to expand. What does peace between Russia and Ukraine look like if not for the west? Total capitulation of Zelensky's government and being replaced by a puppet? Will Ukraine no longer be a sovereign nation? Will Putin try expansionist claims into NATO member countries?

I would have thought that World War 2 would have been a good lesson on why expansionist dictators should not be appeased - but here we are, considering whether or not Putin will be allowed to use aggression to further his expansionist aims.

But as to your first question, do I think enough of the right weaponry for Ukrainian troops is enough? I'm really not sure. I think it could cause an endless stalemate that leads to decades of war - but Ukraine doesn't have the same defensible terrain as other countries to where I think it could definitively turn the tide against an invader with much more manpower. Simply put, I'm not sure Ukraine has the manpower to win a war of attrition against Russia even if armed with loads and loads of the best weaponry available to it in the world. It would be different, imo, if Russia had more outspoken dissent against Putin's rule and the war - but Putin enjoys large support in Russia and dissidents in Russia seem to genuinely fear him more than dissidents of other authoritarian nations that don't enjoy western support.

I totally agree with your first 4 paragraphs, this is exactly what I have been saying all along, yet I am still confronted in everyday life by many who have strong feelings about the Ukraine-Russia issue, but who can't see the picture.

What I will say in reply to your last paragraph, is that although Russia has a much larger population and thus much more manpower, Ukraine still has a large population itself. 43 million people is a heck of a lot of people. Ukraine's military currently has 900,000 active personnel, which is a hell of a lot of people. Plus there are many more that Ukraine can call on as reserves.

I think the advanced weaponry that the West has, plus fighter jets and more tanks can really assist them in turning the tide. I'd say that more fighter jets could potentially be a game changer in this war. Putin may have a lot of support in Russia, but the Ukrainians are more motivated to fight this war than most of their Russian counterparts. The Russians have mined the hell out of the areas they have control over in Ukraine and they are now well entrenched in defensive positions in those regions. It clearly won't be easy for Ukraine to win this war, but it is very possible if they are given the right support and handed the weapons as well as the fighter jets needed to win it.

[Dr. Gonzo]

15 hours ago, Michael said:

I totally agree with your first 4 paragraphs, this is exactly what I have been saying all along, yet I am still confronted in everyday life by many who have strong feelings about the Ukraine-Russia issue, but who can't see the picture.

What I will say in reply to your last paragraph, is that although Russia has a much larger population and thus much more manpower, Ukraine still has a large population itself. 43 million people is a heck of a lot of people. Ukraine's military currently has 900,000 active personnel, which is a hell of a lot of people. Plus there are many more that Ukraine can call on as reserves.

I think the advanced weaponry that the West has, plus fighter jets and more tanks can really assist them in turning the tide. I'd say that more fighter jets could potentially be a game changer in this war. Putin may have a lot of support in Russia, but the Ukrainians are more motivated to fight this war than most of their Russian counterparts. The Russians have mined the hell out of the areas they have control over in Ukraine and they are now well entrenched in defensive positions in those regions. It clearly won't be easy for Ukraine to win this war, but it is very possible if they are given the right support and handed the weapons as well as the fighter jets needed to win it.

Advanced jets, tanks, and missile systems all require time to train troops how to use them properly. I think that’s one of the reasons why Poland supplying MIG fighters Ukrainian pilots could already fly was a very big deal - it was stuff that could be used from the moment it arrived in Ukraine.

The wars I can think of in modern history most similar to this are:

1) Iran v Iraq in the 80s, where Iraq enjoyed widespread international support (including German chemical weapons the west turned a blind eye for using)  - Iran successfully defended Iraq from seizing Khuzestan in large part from the terrain being easy to defend.

2) the first Azerbaijan - Armenia conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh; pretty evenly matched in terms of equipment, weaponry, manpower - but the defensible territory for the Armenians in Artsakh let them successfully claim a breakaway state within Azerbaijan’s borders

3) the second Azerbaijan - Armenia conflict that just happened recently; where Armenia’s largely using the same stuff as they did in the 90s with a much smaller military, and Azerbaijan had advanced Turkish and Israeli drones and significantly more troops. There, the technology advantage and the manpower advantage overcame the defensible terrain advantage.

Even in conflicts with less similarity to Ukraine v. Russia - Afghanistan for the US and Vietnam for the US, it ultimately didn’t matter that US military might was impossible to beat in traditional combat. The terrain of both countries meant the Taliban & Vietcong could survive and wait out US will to keep fighting.

It seems to me the most defensible terrain in Ukraine is Crimea - and it’s more easily defended if attacked from the Ukrainian side. Ukraine seems to already have the tech advantage compared to Russia due to western aid. But Russia will always have more manpower to spare to throw troops into combat than Ukraine.

I’m just not 100% convinced more advanced weaponry, that will take time to be fully combat effective for Ukraine and can’t be used immediately can effectively break the stalemate.

I could be wrong, I’m not a general I’m just someone that likes history and following current events.

And I hope I am wrong. I will always stand with a fledging democracy trying to defend itself from an unjustified attack coming from a dictatorship neighbor. But I fear nothing will break the stalemate other than direct NATO involvement… and that likely means World War 3, which I’m really not to keen on having happen during our lifetimes.

I also fear the results of the US election will lead to another Trump presidency. His idea of peace is Ukraine’s total capitulation, so it’s not ideal for Ukraine. Or anyone hoping for democracy to triumph over dictatorships.

[MUFC]

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/putin-says-russia-is-close-creating-cancer-vaccines-2024-02-14/

[Tommy]

On 25/01/2024 at 17:40, Dr. Gonzo said:

I also fear the results of the US election will lead to another Trump presidency. His idea of peace is Ukraine’s total capitulation, so it’s not ideal for Ukraine. Or anyone hoping for democracy to triumph over dictatorships

He just recently announced that he wouldn't protect the Nato states against a Russian attack, and that he actually encourages Russia to go through with it. 

Which lead to discussions about the EU getting their own Atomic-Bomb... 

 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

On 27/02/2023 at 05:17, Beelzebub said:

Belarusian airfield reportedly attacked with Russian aircraft damaged. 

I'm planning to get in shape. This is getting serious I need to be prepared. 

Are you in shape, have you been conscripted, and have india crossed the border with a trillion dothraki screamers?

[OrangeKhrush]

How about we do that ceasefire thing, that way nobody has to fight and die for politicians to benefit off.

It is hard to ascertain what is truth, people who have been there and involved have given a very stark reality difference to what warmonger media like to tell and that the reality is for the first time in the conflict Russian reserves which are now trained and equipped are ready for deployment and the numbers range from 500-700k while Ukraine's professional Army is now all but dead and reservists with very little training including middle aged men and woman are being drafted yet the west is wanting to supply this war.  

It will take 12-24 months to rearm Ukraine and by then they may not have anyone to use the weapons.   as expected NATO calling for mass conscription hasn't gone down to well, the world is waking up to the fact we are being played by cooperation of governments pandering the globalist agenda.

One report coming out was that Russia had rebuilt it's iskander missles, as part of the Minsk accords they disassembled them, in 2022 it was reported Russia had 150,  now it is reported that they have over 2000 ready to use iskanders and have used double tap attacks on various high valued Ukrainian targets that include western missle and artillery concentrations.   

I am sure a joint NATO offensive could be victorious but I don't think the price is worth it, considering at no point did Putin show any intent of being like Adolph Hitler and lust global domination, he is just some dude in the Kremlin playing mob boss with former Soviet states