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Classism in the UK

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So I know in the past of the UK there was a huge social gap between the working class and the upper class, with the later usually controlling parliament and looking down there noses on the workers, speaking in their patronising King's accent. Is this dichotomy still prevalent in the UK with the emergence of the working class in the last thirty years? I'm wondering this because I just recently watched a interview between a BBC reporter and a SAS soldier concerning the Manchester bombing incident. The former spoke towards the soldier as if he was a total and utter moron, and I was wondering if it was merely because he spoke in a working class accent triggering some sort of inherent bias in the interviewer. Then there was the Grenfell fire which seemed to be a largely immigrant and lower-class housing flat whose previous complaints were dismissed (perhaps on the basis of their social status). How entrenched in the culture and social identity is classism in the UK? It seems to me that it still exists just by observing the news and how some people on here interact (the league v union rugby rivalry for instance)

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For the record, classism is practically non-existent in the USA and somewhat exists in Australia. Everyone in America feels like they have the potential for upwards mobility and few would refuse it. Only a few 'old money' states exist and they tend to be in the north-east. In Australia it seems to be more city v country v private school 'old fellow'. In fact go to certain places in Australia and people will speak with a more 'received' King's English accent, I find it quite gross when I hear it.

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There's inequality in every country, I wouldn't say classism a massive thing in the UK but it is still there. 

Regarding the reporter, that's just what a lot of them are like, coming across as posh when they probably think they're just being professional.

As for the fire, surely that's just how it is everywhere? People live in flats because they're the people without the money to afford anything better. 

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16 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

There's inequality in every country, I wouldn't say classism a massive thing in the UK but it is still there. 

Regarding the reporter, that's just what a lot of them are like, coming across as posh when they probably think they're just being professional.

As for the fire, surely that's just how it is everywhere? People live in flats because they're the people without the money to afford anything better. 

But would complaints about inadequate infrastructure fall on deaf ears in any other first world nation? Why would so much money be spent sprucing up the building with fancy cladding when the inside of the building is inadequate?  Seems to me that the focus was on making the building pretty for people's eyes over making it a safe place to live.

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1 minute ago, Spike said:

But would complaints about inadequate infrastructure fall on deaf ears in any other first world nation? Why would so much money be spent sprucing up the building with fancy cladding when the inside of the building is inadequate?  Seems to me that the focus was on making the building pretty for people's eyes over making it a safe place to live.

I've personally not read up enough about it because quite frankly, I'm not that interested in the why and how of it. From what I have read though I get the impression it was a case of general neglect rather than it being a case of "oh it doesn't matter they're only poor people". Like I say though I've not read up on enough of the details to make a fully informed comment. 

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Are we talking rise of the Proletariat here.... 

 

 

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I don't think there's much of gap nowadays, especially not within the job market. Most plumbers, sparkys and chippys earn a wage above what you'd say is working class and inside what you may think is middle class.

The working classes have moved to call centres and warehouses imo, but that's a far cry of what you may have considered working class 3 or 4 decades ago in terms of working conditions.

Politically I'd definitely say there is a division when you look at austerity measures, hospital departments continually being shut down, waiting times going up, people sleeping in hallways, police numbers being cut, cuts to the Fire Brigade....all happens because apparently a first world country like Britain cannot afford public services.

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Classism has nothing to do with the possibility to better yourself.  Classism is a prejudice and it continues to exist as it always has in the UK.  I would say it exists everywhere.

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33 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Classism has nothing to do with the possibility to better yourself.  Classism is a prejudice and it continues to exist as it always has in the UK.  I would say it exists everywhere.

Yes it does. Classism isn't just simply the upper class looking down on the lower class, it's the lower class looking down on upwards mobility. It's 'Tall Poppy Syndrome' do you think a working class bloke that makes it big will be universally praised by his fellow working class peers no, they'll say things like 'Whaddya want a porchse for? Think yer better than us now?'. The same thing happens in the black communities of USA except a little differently, you have 'keep it real' by returning to the hood and the ghetto and 'spreading your wealth' amongst the leeches, lest be called an 'uncle tom' or something of the like. This mentality is common and you can actually observe it occuring in day to day life. Take this example for instance; minority owned (think Asian, Hispanic) convenience stores do better in black neighbourhoods than black owned stores. Why? Because black owners are expected to 'keep it real' by giving out freebies and discounts, and when they don't their business will be ignored because 'they don't help a brother out'. Just in spite black patrons would rather shop at a minority store over a black owned store just to keep the other's down.

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2 minutes ago, Spike said:

'Whaddya want a porchse for? Think yer better than us now?'

That's called envy mate, not classism...  The same in all of the other criticisms on someone getting off their arse and doing everything they can to make a lot of money (which isn't the only way to make it in life I may add).

"Classism" is a form of discrimination based on "class" (I've used inverted commas because "class" is all make believe).  It's a way for someone to have an excuse to look down upon others and on the other side of the spectrum it's a way to have a reason to criticise those that have worked hard to get where they have.  With this I'm talking about people that move up the ladder and not those born into it.

 

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Just now, SirBalon said:

That's called envy mate, not classism...  The same in all of the other criticisms on someone getting off their arse and doing everything they can to make a lot of money (which isn't the only way to make it in life I may add).

"Classism" is a form of discrimination based on "class" (I've used inverted commas because "class" is all make believe).  It's a way for someone to have an excuse to look down upon others and on the other side of the spectrum it's a way to have a reason to criticise those that have worked hard to get where they have.  With this I'm talking about people that move up the ladder and not those born into it.

 

It is classism because they are discriminating someone with similar origins that has moved into another class.

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Just now, Spike said:

It is classism because they are discriminating someone with similar origins that has moved into another class.

What's envy?

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Just now, SirBalon said:

What's envy?

Envy is coveting other's possessions or lot in life. It isn't that at all, people are proud of their heritage, proud of their roots, and to see someone forgo that is an insult, they don't want the damn porsche, they want their style of life to remain intact, and moving out, gentrifying, buying status symbols of something they aren't is an aberration. Why do think people like Adriano move back into the favela? He didn't give a toss about the Porsche, he is more concerned about where he is from, what he knows. This isn't about possessions, somebody can own nice things but still belong to the working class, it's a culture, a frame of mind. One can feel envious of another's possessions but not feel the classist resent if that person stayed true to their roots; which is what I covered in the part of the post you deleted from that quote.

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1 minute ago, Spike said:

Envy is coveting other's possessions or lot in life. It isn't that at all, people are proud of their heritage, proud of their roots, and to see someone forgo that is an insult, they don't want the damn porsche, they want their style of life to remain intact, and moving out, gentrifying, buying status symbols of something they aren't is an aberration. Why do think people like Adriano move back into the favela? He didn't give a toss about the Porsche, he is more concerned about where he is from, what he knows. This isn't about possessions, somebody can own nice things but still belong to the working class, it's a culture, a frame of mind. One can feel envious of another's possessions but not feel the classist resent if that person stayed true to their roots; which is what I covered in the part of the post you deleted from that quote.

You're converting "class" into a money issue which from a British perspective in its purest form isn't based on that at all.  Infact in its "proper form" (again inverted commas because I think "class" is a fabrication) "class" is based on standing within society and indeed status.  But there is a case in modern times to agree that "class" has become a financial positional issue, but not what it's meant to be.

On the note about what people do with the money they've managed to make...  That's upto each individual and if someone chooses to become an addict to consumerism and fall into the globalisation trap, that's their issue and has nothing to do with "class".  It's means!

On "envy"...  For sure you can envy someone's new car, but you can more times than not envy someone's acquisition of "status" aka a job or something along those lines which is extremely common.  Infact in the "question a member" thread I think True Blue went along those lines which I'm saying.

This isn't about who's right or who's wrong mate.  It's about something that's absolutely meaningless in real terms and meaningful for those that either are envious or have a prejudice based on the former or are just typical moaners that are never satisfied with how the world unfortunately functions on a social scale.

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2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

You're converting "class" into a money issue which from a British perspective in its purest form isn't based on that at all.  Infact in its "proper form" (again inverted commas because I think "class" is a fabrication) "class" is based on standing within society and indeed status.  But there is a case in modern times to agree that "class" has become a financial positional issue, but not what it's meant to be.

On the note about what people do with the money they've managed to make...  That's upto each individual and if someone chooses to become an addict to consumerism and fall into the globalisation trap, that's their issue and has nothing to do with "class".  It's means!

On "envy"...  For sure you can envy someone's new car, but you can more times than not envy someone's acquisition of "status" aka a job or something along those lines which is extremely common.  Infact in the "question a member" thread I think True Blue went along those lines which I'm saying.

This isn't about who's right or who's wrong mate.  It's about something that's absolutely meaningless in real terms and meaningful for those that either are envious or have a prejudice based on the former or are just typical moaners that are never satisfied with how the world unfortunately functions on a social scale.

I'm actually not; if you think that you've missed my point entirely and there isn't any point continuing this discussion.

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I give less of a shit about what class people are and more about the relationship between those with power and those without. The powerful convincing the powerless that it's in their interest to hand over more power and it working being the biggest travesty.

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On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 9:15 AM, Spike said:

For the record, classism is practically non-existent in the USA

Totally disagree with this - there is most definitely classism in the United States. There's maybe more blurred lines between working class, lower-middle class, middle class, upper-middle class; lots of subgroups of socioeconomic status & then there's the ultra-wealthy. It's not as immediately obvious as they don't have that cunty fucking accent... but to say there's no classism in the United States, just because it's not got the same concepts as old money & familial social standing (although those still, most definitely, play a part in some places) is pretty misleading.

To be honest, "classism," "class-warfare," and all that jazz are pretty viewed in the US & UK, it's just more noticeably different when you've got someone like Jacob Rees-Mogg and his cunty accent talking and you know exactly what his social standing is. In the US it's more subtle, but it's still most definitely there. It might not seem as bad though because in the US we generally get to throw around more money than we would in the UK (and I'm assuming that's also true of Australia) - I get paid more than I was offered in the UK & comparatively I have more spending power than I otherwise would have had back home; so while I am still middle class, I feel better off because of it. And that's a good thing.

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In terms of economic social mobility I'm fairly sure that the UK is pretty low in the developed world. Culturally, I'd also say we still have a huge class issue. 

We divide our entertainment along class lines a lot, in my opinion. Football, for example, is hostile to any efforts at intellectualism, and a lot of middle-class kids are put off by a feeling of ostracisation amongst their working-class peers. Rugby, on the other hand, is largely the sport of upper-middle class meat heads.

And that's not even mentioning the fact that the Southern elite have a stranglehold on our politics. Being rich by birth and having the right accent gives you a divine right to have your opinions broadcast for free all over the nation, even if you've lost 7 elections and hold no significant political office. 

Bombing in interviews, having a history of severe personal scandals, demonstrating callous disregard for people's lives, and showing clear incompetence on a consistent basis is normally suicide for a politician. Unless you were born into enormous privilege and have an upper-class southern accent. In that case, you can be Foreign Secretary.

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Regarding classes, I know there's been a lot of media attention about Grenfel and how the residents have been treated because they're poor. I went there yesterday and you do not recognise how big the social divide is there until you visit the area. It is literally chalk and cheese. On one side of the road you have houses that will be worth a fortune, and the other side you have people in flats using duvets for curtains.

I know it's a bit cliche but I had a new found respect for the fire fighters that went there because with all the debris falling and the magnitude of the fire they must have believed the end was near. 

Then I left Grenfel and heard the Tories cheer that they prevented these heroes getting a pay rise, and I was livid.

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Hillsborough and Grenfell are both pretty good examples of the sheer worthlessness that the right-wing elite here holds the poor in. 

The death of 96 people was far less important than maintaining the local police power structure, or not embarrassing the government. Why? Because they were working class. 

The lives of what will probs be about 100 people were less valuable than the £150k it would have taken to use non-fireproof cladding and install sprinklers. In a multi-million pound renovation that was primarily cosmetic - undertaken to protect the property values of the area for its wealthy property owners. 

The only reason the Hillsborough legal campaign even survived the initial onslaught from our Tory government and press was because of the ECHR giving everyone the right to legally get redress for the breach of their loved ones' right to life in Art 2.

And after all that, what a coincidence that the Tories hate the ECHR, huh? Is it because they have lofty worries about our sovereignty? 

No.

It's because they don't agree that the poor have a right to life. 

Edited by Inverted

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On 29/06/2017 at 7:29 PM, Inverted said:

In terms of economic social mobility I'm fairly sure that the UK is pretty low in the developed world. Culturally, I'd also say we still have a huge class issue. 

We divide our entertainment along class lines a lot, in my opinion. Football, for example, is hostile to any efforts at intellectualism, and a lot of middle-class kids are put off by a feeling of ostracisation amongst their working-class peers. Rugby, on the other hand, is largely the sport of upper-middle class meat heads.

And that's not even mentioning the fact that the Southern elite have a stranglehold on our politics. Being rich by birth and having the right accent gives you a divine right to have your opinions broadcast for free all over the nation, even if you've lost 7 elections and hold no significant political office. 

Bombing in interviews, having a history of severe personal scandals, demonstrating callous disregard for people's lives, and showing clear incompetence on a consistent basis is normally suicide for a politician. Unless you were born into enormous privilege and have an upper-class southern accent. In that case, you can be Foreign Secretary.

Such utter bullshit I've given you a -1.  The shite you peddle about sport alone is such generalisation based on your own social prejudices about class proved my earlier point about it's very much a two was street in the UK. 

I don't even need to drill down into your political ramblings, the shit about rugby is probably some of the most narrow minded crap I've seen from you. I suggest you go to a rugby game and sit amongst the crowd you'll find a healthy mix. Likewise football is now very trendy and crowds are more interspersed with the metropolitan social climbers of the middle class. 

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20 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Such utter bullshit I've given you a -1.  The shite you peddle about sport alone is such generalisation based on your own social prejudices about class proved my earlier point about it's very much a two was street in the UK. 

I don't even need to drill down into your political ramblings, the shit about rugby is probably some of the most narrow minded crap I've seen from you. I suggest you go to a rugby game and sit amongst the crowd you'll find a healthy mix. Likewise football is now very trendy and crowds are more interspersed with the metropolitan social climbers of the middle class. 

My ramblings about sport show my prejudices? So I'm prejudiced against the working class and the middle class? I must be, since I was critical about the anti-middle-class vein in football too. 

I've never heard of any study into class and sporting support. Your solution is that I go to a rugby match and make a judgement on nothing more than what I see and overhear from a couple dozen people immediately around me?  How exactly is that better than basing my opinion on the rugby fans that I've met and spoke to? 

There's no objective way of knowing the class structure of rugby support. Ive come to my opinion based on the next best thing: time spent around rugby fans, watching rugby players on tv, reading coverage on rugby and football, and seeing the different ways that the behavior of rugby and football fans is covered. 

In any case, a decent chunk of working class people at Twickenham and a decent chunk of middle-class people in Wembley doesn't immediately get rid of the cultural connotations around the different sports. 

Edit:

Ofsted 2014

Top league footballers: 94% state educated.

Top league RU players: 39% state educated. 

Yup, no class divide at all. You're free to make it clear that you're not a fan of mine, but I honestly have no hard feelings. 

Edited by Inverted

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23 minutes ago, Inverted said:

My ramblings about sport show my prejudices? So I'm prejudiced against the working class and the middle class? I must be, since I was critical about the anti-middle-class vein in football too. 

I've never heard of any study into class and sporting support. Your solution is that I go to a rugby match and make a judgement on nothing more than what I see and overhear from a couple dozen people immediately around me?  How exactly is that better than basing my opinion on the rugby fans that I've met and spoke to? 

There's no objective way of knowing the class structure of rugby support. Ive come to my opinion based on the next best thing: time spent around rugby fans, watching rugby players on tv, reading coverage on rugby and football, and seeing the different ways that the behavior of rugby and football fans is covered. 

In any case, a decent chunk of working class people at Twickenham and a decent chunk of middle-class people in Wembley doesn't immediately get rid of the cultural connotations around the different sports. 

Edit:

Ofsted 2014

Top league footballers: 94% state educated.

Top league RU players: 39% state educated. 

Yup, no class divide at all. You're free to make it clear that you're not a fan of mine, but I honestly have no hard feelings. 

Fairy didn't speak of the players but the fans. Besides private or public education isn't always indicative of 'social class', many of the private school kids I knew of were simply from wealthy agrarian families (cockies where I'm from) or simply bogans/chavs. 

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5 minutes ago, Spike said:

Fairy didn't speak of the players but the fans. Besides private or public education isn't always indicative of 'social class', many of the private school kids I knew of were simply from wealthy agrarian families (cockies where I'm from) or simply bogans/chavs. 

And my original point was about rugby generally, not just the fans. In any case players are generally drawn from the fanbase. 

And of course there are some non-middle class private school kids. Just as there are some working class rugby people. Nobody is dealing in absolutes here.

My first post which got some knickers in such a twist said "largely". 

Rugby and private school are largely middle class.

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14 hours ago, Inverted said:

My ramblings about sport show my prejudices? So I'm prejudiced against the working class and the middle class? I must be, since I was critical about the anti-middle-class vein in football too. 

I've never heard of any study into class and sporting support. Your solution is that I go to a rugby match and make a judgement on nothing more than what I see and overhear from a couple dozen people immediately around me?  How exactly is that better than basing my opinion on the rugby fans that I've met and spoke to? 

There's no objective way of knowing the class structure of rugby support. Ive come to my opinion based on the next best thing: time spent around rugby fans, watching rugby players on tv, reading coverage on rugby and football, and seeing the different ways that the behavior of rugby and football fans is covered. 

In any case, a decent chunk of working class people at Twickenham and a decent chunk of middle-class people in Wembley doesn't immediately get rid of the cultural connotations around the different sports. 

Edit:

Ofsted 2014kzzttdtttddtd

Top league footballers: 94% state educated.

Top league RU players: 39% sta z ate educated. 

Yup, no class divide at all. You're free to make it clear that you're not a fan of mine, but I honestly have no hard feelings. 

You said Rugby was largely the sport of upper-class meat heads.

There's a perfectly good explanation as to why more players are from none state schools and that's because the state by & large don't play it, Likewise cricket with the destruction of school playing fields and lack of coaching and emphasis on sports at school level. 

Amateur rugby which is still the second tier really is far more differently cultured with large working class and growing minority involvement. You're probably not taking into account we're only really a generation into professionalism with Union. The working class of the north splintered off with professionalism and league, the propaganda from both sides of the split has helped spread the perception that union is all posh boys down south. At the top end of it the premiership, there's high numbers due to that being the only production line. It's starting to broaden out with the academy system of the top clubs Jack Nowell & co at Exeter are a great example of this. At grass roots level it's far more mixed and far more tolerant than football in my experience. 

Maybe it's different in Scotland but down here it's just becoming a bit tedious hearing classist bull shit at every opportunity regarding rugby union. League strikes me as the more hostile to different classes & gentrification. After all which code has more ethnic & gender representation? 

It's also worth noting that current RFU president World Cup winner Jason Leonard (state school) has initiated various schemes to grow Rugby in state schools & among ethnic & female populations as it's an area of vast potential not being tapped into by the RFU. 

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Union is definitely played in State schools all around the south quite heavily from years 7-9. My school was always involved with Rugby tournaments and we were a "football school".

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