Donald Trump

[6666]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'm not sure one journalist (with a pretty bad track record for saying incorrect things) indicates a network collapsing under fake news. The tax cuts are a big victory for him (and anyone who doesn't use itemised deductions under the US tax code) and GOP donors. The travel ban thing isn't final though - it's just going to be allowed to remain in effect until the Supreme Court makes a decision.

I think the Flynn news and his subsequent twitter meltdown indicate that not everything is good in Trump land.

I'm actually interested to see what the reaction to the GOP tax plan will be in the red states once it's been put in effect - because a lot of people rely on itemised deductions. It's also projected to massively add to the deficit, which US conservatives usually harp on about until they've got control and then they balloon it out of control (see: Bush 1, GWB, and now the Trumpster). The removal of deductions for state and local taxes is going to be immensely unpopular once people realise that's an effect of this tax bill.

It'll be the same as always. "Those immigrants are really making life difficult".

[Honey Honey]

Did anyone watch the four part channel4 documentary on Trump? Basically footage of him in the 80s and 90s.

Worth a view. Dodgy bloke. Very much used the same dickhead tactics in business and media before entering politics. 

That voice recording of him calling up pretending to be his own PR guy is hilarious. Tells you everything you need to know about the man.

[Danny]

2 hours ago, Kitchen Sales said:

Did anyone watch the four part channel4 documentary on Trump? Basically footage of him in the 80s and 90s.

Worth a view. Dodgy bloke. Very much used the same dickhead tactics in business and media before entering politics. 

That voice recording of him calling up pretending to be his own PR guy is hilarious. Tells you everything you need to know about the man.

It says more about the state of American politics and the population in general that he was ever voted in.

Then again a significant proportion of the UK take Farage seriously so we're in no position to judge.

[Honey Honey]

4 hours ago, Danny said:

It says more about the state of American politics and the population in general that he was ever voted in.

Then again a significant proportion of the UK take Farage seriously so we're in no position to judge.

There are few things more dangerous in politics than liking someone. He wouldn't have got as far as he did with the shite he says if it wasn't for his celebrity brand image.

Happens with all politicians, especially the previous President. 

[Inverted]

I think watching a little bit of that Trump doc has just convinced me even further that Trump isn't a master mainuplator.

I genuinely think he's just acting on his feelings and impulses. And I think I always actually hoped that he was playing a character and a game in some sense, because that's less scary.

[Fairy In Boots]

On 05/12/2017 at 4:58 AM, Danny said:

It says more about the state of American politics and the population in general that he was ever voted in.

Then again a significant proportion of the UK take Farage seriously so we're in no position to judge.

It says more about the ineptitude of the Obama’s administration, Trump is very much a reaction to the feckless Obama whitehouse 

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

It says more about the ineptitude of the Obama’s administration, Trump is very much a reaction to the feckless Obama whitehouse 

I think that goes back to what Danny said - It says a lot about voters that believed this is an appropriate response to a "feckless administration".

Personally I see Obama as just a Bush-light, but with a better understanding of economics and believing people should be able to see the doctor without being bankrupt. Both made a mess of the Middle East... but significantly less so than the Bush administration.

[SirBalon]

So Trump recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel! How THICK can you get!

Come one... Let someone defend this beauty coz the defences are becoming more hilarious than the stupidity Mr Orange comes out with. 

[Honey Honey]

Has their ever been a better wum?

 

[God is Haaland]

1 hour ago, Kitchen Sales said:

Has their ever been a better wum?

 

 

No, I am the best. I have the best bait, believe me. Trust me, I know baits. Noone is even close.

[Fairy In Boots]

4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

So Trump recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel! How THICK can you get!

Come one... Let someone defend this beauty coz the defences are becoming more hilarious than the stupidity Mr Orange comes out with. 

It’s hardly thick it’s actually bizarrely potentially a shrewd move politically long term considering how many states still don’t recognise Israel. This effectively forces their hand a bit in the region as the global superpower has backed their horse (openly diplomatically). Obviously they’re going to burn some flags and let a few rockets off but that’s an ordinary week anyway, when the dust settles Jerusalem is recognised as the capital of Israel (let’s face it as it is in reality) by the worlds largest player. Long road ahead but this is drawing a line on the Palestine issue so rather than just chucking shit over one another’s fence we may see some kind of new dialogue. Which eventually will lead to peace, admittedly this is breaking a few eggs to make an omelet, a more diplomatic deal would have been better. 

I see the anti-Semitic Corbyn has already condemned it 😂

7 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think that goes back to what Danny said - It says a lot about voters that believed this is an appropriate response to a "feckless administration".

Personally I see Obama as just a Bush-light, but with a better understanding of economics and believing people should be able to see the doctor without being bankrupt. Both made a mess of the Middle East... but significantly less so than the Bush administration.

No argument on the Bush comparison, I’ll save the health care argument for another day. 

Talking of Obama 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Yeah, he's not the first US President to have said that though - pretty standard for the course of a President. The interesting thing here is that the orange dealmaker seems to have just given it up, rather than use it as leverage to get Israel to stop expanding settlements. If he'd done that, I'd actually be tempted to give him some credit for using leverage to accomplish something that gives both sides of the Israel-Palestine shite something they both want. As things stand, it's a giveaway likely to increase tensions in the region.

[Honey Honey]

US positions on Israel are becoming more and more globally worthless. A real dying power. The majority of the West has been moving in the completely opposite direction to them for a few years now. Even their staunchest allies. You can't call yourself the biggest player if no one follows your lead but a couple of tiny African states.

 

[Fairy In Boots]

6 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah, he's not the first US President to have said that though - pretty standard for the course of a President. The interesting thing here is that the orange dealmaker seems to have just given it up, rather than use it as leverage to get Israel to stop expanding settlements. If he'd done that, I'd actually be tempted to give him some credit for using leverage to accomplish something that gives both sides of the Israel-Palestine shite something they both want. As things stand, it's a giveaway likely to increase tensions in the region.

It’s already a high tension region with violence near the surface. Hamas have survived off the bully tactic “if you do that and we’ll commit terrorism”.  Now by calling there bluff sure they’ll be initial rage but once the dust settles the global superpower (which they are still) has shit canned a two state solution because it’s a deal breaker for Palestinians, they will slowly disperse into the countries around them and palistine will become a pipe dream in several generations from now. It’s far better than doing nothing for fear of offending both parties and the cycle of violence continuing. Israel have no choice they will literally be eradicated if the are defeated. 

5 hours ago, Kitchen Sales said:

US positions on Israel are becoming more and more globally worthless. A real dying power. The majority of the West has been moving in the completely opposite direction to them for a few years now. Even their staunchest allies. You can't call yourself the biggest player if no one follows your lead but a couple of tiny African states.

 

The Czech’s and Phillipines snook it through on a good day to bury bad news yesterday. I personally find it farcical that there’s such an outcry when half these countries upset by this don’t even recognise Israel. 

Lets be fair the “West’s” position on this is a disgrace, we can argue about the legitimacy of the state of Israel all day, without it we’ll have a genocide again. Unencumbered with their own state what the Palestinians going to offer the world seriously? Dates and another sharia admistered mess? 

We’ve started pandering to increasing sympathy amongst voter based domestically is all. Palestine is governed by actual terrorist using violence to get their goal, how is this even classed as acceptable? Everyone is quick to condemn the tactics used by the IRA. 

Don’t get me wrong Israel violates international law with its settlements but if the shoe was on the other foot I doubt we’d see even 20% the restraint shown.

At this point in time It’s a case of both sides are cunts but one side is twice the cunt the other is. We can point out to how we got here, but that just delays the inevitable solution and preserves the ongoing struggle. Palistine lost years ago everyone just seems petrified of admitting it because basically they’ve become terrorists. 

[Honey Honey]

It's a peace process. That means any facilitator must shed their bias inclinations. Instead you defend yours, in part by inventing the idea that everyone who doesn't agree with you is being bias against Israel so your bias must be fine.

Just admit you don't want a peace process at all. There are loads of people like that on both sides who are lying and stringing everyone along so that they can keep the moral self image that comes with saying they seek peace. Yeah, peace in victory.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a facilitator unilaterally recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital is thick as pig shit move. The US is not a facilitator of peace, it never has been, dressing it up as one is just a complete con. 

[Fairy In Boots]

41 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

It's a peace process. That means any facilitator must shed their bias inclinations. Instead you defend yours, in part by inventing the idea that everyone who doesn't agree with you is being bias against Israel so your bias must be fine.

Just admit you don't want a peace process at all. There are loads of people like that on both sides who are lying and stringing everyone along so that they can keep the moral self image that comes with saying they seek peace. Yeah, peace in victory.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a facilitator unilaterally recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital is thick as pig shit move. The US is not a facilitator of peace, it never has been, dressing it up as one is just a complete con. 

I’m not saying everyone who doesn’t agree is bias against Israel? I said politically western leaders are pandering to Palestine for fear of alienating sections of the voter base. Western Europe shaking its head while Eastern Europe who don’t have such concerns pretty much following the states all but confirms this. To me that’s cowardice from our politicians. 

And to clarify yeah I said they’re will be peace but you’re correct it’s peace in victory for Israel. It’s the only feasible long term solution to my mind, there’s not going to be an unbiased peaceful solution it’s to far gone, to sectarian.

I don’t see where I didn’t make that clear with the initial post really, I’ve not painted Trump as a peacemaker here, if it appears that way it’s not my intention. What Trumps done is basically started the end game which will be violent (but it was violent anyway) and because of that we’ll see a resolution to it. But you’re correct it’s a resolution from victory for Israel which if we’re really honest is the better of two evils. 

To my mind we’re just going to carry on as is otherwise, better to get it over with as it’s better in the long term. Obviously I’m speaking broadly about it, I do understand it will be horrific for those involved it’s war and war is hell. I’m not being unsympathetic to their plight just trying to view it pragmatically and discuss it thus. There’s an end in sight now it may well take 100 years and suck if you’re Palestinian but it’s an end. No doubt someone will react furiously and miss my point but hey ho it’s the internet 

[Honey Honey]

Western Europe turned from the US because of the blockade and serious abuses against civilians that were committed a couple of years ago.

Are the Eastern European states by any chance the ones increasingly anti Muslim? Can you claim with pure clarity that they aren't influenced by their electorate and attitudes to Muslims?

Is your scant disregard for what will come the way of innocent Palestinians also rooted in your desire for a total war with Islam that you regularly promote?

How much is your prejudice influencing an attitude of certainty that this is a solution that will work despite a lack of detail?

[Fairy In Boots]

25 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

Western Europe turned from the US because of the blockade and serious abuses against civilians that were committed a couple of years ago.

Are the Eastern European states by any chance the ones increasingly anti Muslim? Can you claim with pure clarity that they aren't influenced by their electorate and attitudes to Muslims?

Is your scant disregard for what will come the way of innocent Palestinians also rooted in your desire for a total war with Islam that you regularly promote?

How much is your prejudice influencing an attitude of certainty that this is a solution that will work despite a lack of detail?

Yeah Eastern Europe don’t have to pander to sympathetic Muslim electorates I just said as much in the last post. This is a Jew vs Muslim conflict is it not? 

What do you mean skant disregard, I’ve just said in the previous post that they will suffer, War is horrific and I’m not unsympathetic. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone it’s a horrible situation. I’m trying to discuss it broadly without getting hung up on the horror of it. 

Also fuck off with the “regular promotion” of “total war”. You’re not thick Harv you don’t need to act like it, I’ve just posted a lengthy post yesterday in responce to Smiley similar accusations. Basically saying it’s ia cultural war we must fight within the West. I never talk about interventions in Islamic lands or agresssive violence that’s needed even within the UK I promote none violent social solutions. I may say I predict that will be the long term violent consequences of inactivity towards tackling the problem at home, but that’s a country mile away from promotion. I expect that kind of shit from smiley, I thought better of you to be honest. 

You’re right I’m not certain it will be a lasting solution. My view is based on if Israel wins palistine ceases to exist as it 90% doesn’t already and the Palestinians melt into the neighbouring states as they have been doing for the last 30-40 years. Where can the Jews go? They can’t really it’s do or die for them it really is, so yes I probably do favour the Jews in this instance because failure means extinction and I have no desire to see that happen.  I also don’t think Islamic states offer the world much to further global development, that’s not prejudice based on an irrational fear. It’s a prejudice based on the fact that they tend to lag behind other states in terms of what I view as global beneficial output (science, technological development etc) the less we have of these states the better. Say for example if Iran said “we’re fucking Sharia off we’re going to invest in green technology & education” I’d view that as a great bit of news for the world, the more countries do that no matter where they are the better as far as I’m concerned. Case in point Israel offer far more than Palestine currently. If it wasn’t the case and it was the opposite I’d recalibrate my opinion provided no added element of possible genocide. 

[Honey Honey]

"Politicians" as a group think pandering to Muslims for votes is a conspiracy theory. Many politicians reflect and share norm social attitudes. You can't call SirBalon pandering to Muslims with his post, that would be a laughable assertion. Ordinary Brits without an anti-muslim dog in the fight or a pro-Israel position react to the latest by scoffing. That is the natural reaction of anyone who recognises the controversy and does not have a side. A fairly straight forward instinct to emerge. It is not a surprise nor necessarily a conspiracy if a politician shares that. Your assumption that it is requires the belief there can be no difference, things are right or wrong and you're right.

The skant disregard is because your idea is basically that peace cannot exist so it is ok to deliberately escalate violence and ethnically cleanse the area so that their can be one winner. Yeah that works, genocide and social cleansing has worked historically, most European countries borders were created by it, England and Scotland are genocidal raping social cleansing conceptions. German speakers were cleansed from the borders after the second world war out of fear that they might want to reunify with Germany again, many murdered for refusing, those who lived were forced to go to a foreign country and start again, just for speaking German, sounds familiar, driving people out of their homes just for being Muslim, for your paranoia.

None of this is possible without dehumanizing. It's worth asking whether the blurring of the individual with a particular political ideal is exactly that. Why else would someone resign from the process of trying to change that politics?

[Dr. Gonzo]

Very important cabinet members in the administration were also against the Jerusalem decision - so it's not exactly a partisan issue or anything. https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/sources-tillerson-mattis-opposed-embassy-move-trump-jerusalem-israel/

 

 

[Fairy In Boots]

7 hours ago, Kitchen Sales said:

"Politicians" as a group think pandering to Muslims for votes is a conspiracy theory. Many politicians reflect and share norm social attitudes. You can't call SirBalon pandering to Muslims with his post, that would be a laughable assertion. Ordinary Brits without an anti-muslim dog in the fight or a pro-Israel position react to the latest by scoffing. That is the natural reaction of anyone who recognises the controversy and does not have a side. A fairly straight forward instinct to emerge. It is not a surprise nor necessarily a conspiracy if a politician shares that. Your assumption that it is requires the belief there can be no difference, things are right or wrong and you're right.

The skant disregard is because your idea is basically that peace cannot exist so it is ok to deliberately escalate violence and ethnically cleanse the area so that their can be one winner. Yeah that works, genocide and social cleansing has worked historically, most European countries borders were created by it, England and Scotland are genocidal raping social cleansing conceptions. German speakers were cleansed from the borders after the second world war out of fear that they might want to reunify with Germany again, many murdered for refusing, those who lived were forced to go to a foreign country and start again, just for speaking German, sounds familiar, driving people out of their homes just for being Muslim, for your paranoia.

None of this is possible without dehumanizing. It's worth asking whether the blurring of the individual with a particular political ideal is exactly that. Why else would someone resign from the process of trying to change that politics?

Politicians do pander to their electorates Harv. 

Im not disputing what you’re saying re ethnically cleansing etc. I’m just pointing out that you will get the same result if either side wins but it’s more likely that if the Palestinians won the Jews will have it harder than the Palestinians already have it.  They’ve established themselves to varying degrees already in Lebanon etc. 

Also I wasn’t criticising Balon I was just saying it wasn’t “thick” it’s actually a move in what has been a long violent stalemate. It’s unpalatable for some but it’s leadership to some degree whether you agree or disagree. 

With that in mind and subtracting the horrors suffered in war surely you can see that there’s actually some sense in picking the lesser of two evils and forcing a result. Do you really think in your heart of hearts a peaceful solution could have been found between these two? Palestinians elected a terror group as their leaders, what choice does the world have? 

That’s a big factor to, all legitimate claims of persecution and the fabled “genocide” of Palestine gets nerfed by the fact the Palestinians have a stabbing rampage or a firework display given half a chance.

Literally you need your head looking at if you think the shoe was on the other foot we wouldn’t see even worse atrocities committed. It’s also a case of the Muslims demonising the Jew is it not? Literally if Israel showed any kind of weakness they would be attacked, it’s a testament to them as a nation that they’ve made such a success of the situation they’re in. 

A peaceful democractic opposition would see far more support from the world at large. Take the current incident in Catalonia, if the party of  Junts per Catalunya suddenly renamamed themselves Madriddance and started attacking pro Madrid settlements with rockets would Puigdemont get half the sympathy they get now? No we know this. It’s arguably why we still have a divided Ireland while the rest of the Empire has become autonomous (granted in simplifying here). 

I do think a bit of western guilt plays apart in the western view of the Israeli-Palestinian saga, Hamas behaviour is generally appalling on a consistent basis and  granted Israel often overstep international laws. But to me It’s almost a perverse routing for the underdog although in this instance the underdog would a murdering organisation who’s ultimate goal is the irradiation of the Jews. 

[Honey Honey]

No one is saying Hamas should win or be allowed to win except the anti-semite or anti-western left. 

Don't throw me in with them. We are not influenced by guilt we are influenced by a different moral reasoning which says the journey validates the end, rather than your view that the ends justify the means. I've not seen any evidence that the latter can be done without allowing prejudice to take hold. 

It's also a matter of dealing with ambiguity, the unknown and the immeasurable. I don't have any need to map the journey to the end point as you pretty much require of me. A belief in universal humanity is all that is needed to know that it is possible. I don't need to know how long it will take to forge the environment that will bring that to fruition, just that attempts to create that environment are the lead. I'm comfortable with the ambiguity that comes with that journey. I don't have to see obvious shows of force. Things can fluctuate in their visible results.

Donald Trump is very much a man for those less able to deal with ambiguity. For those with a more restless and uneasy disposition. That kind of approach might get to an ends quicker, in some situations it may even be more utilitarian or effective. One thing it certainly can't ever be however is to decipher information and evidence and conclude that it is impartially the right thing to do. These are matters of moral difference and can't be separated from inclinations and predispositions.

The same goes with all terrorism discussions on here. Our different views can help shed light on positions one another might not have thought of so that we can improve our own decision making, yes we might actually be able to work with Jerusalem as israels identified capital, but here, on cleansing Palestine, you are asking us to completely abandon the moral compass from within, that I am afraid is too far.

[Fairy In Boots]

Lol I’m not asking you to do anything here and I don’t require anything from you. I’m just saying I can see logic and the reason I see the logic is for this/these particular reason(s). 

You’re entitled to disagree and have a different opinion. I’m comfortable with the ambiguity of discussion on topics. We are on an forum for discussion, every topic is ambiguous by nature is it not? I’m not the pipper of Hamlin, I don’t require validation of my opinions, I’d have just fucked off to a forum with like minded people should that have been my need. It’s obviously nice and on certain topics I’ll keep going if I feel I’m correct and being attacked such as the terrorism topics. But ordinarily with people like yourself who are generally considered on topics such as these where’s the need? Although you did attack me initially. 

You won’t see any evidence of the successfulness for this solution that Trump has started, just as I won’t see any for your preference because they’re both hypothetical at this point.

I’m not sure why you keep suggesting that it has to be impartial, I think even with a completely peaceful solution it will never be completely impartial. Obviously in a perfect world, but my disregard for the possibility of an impartial solution points to an inherent skeptism on my part. As I’ve said I feel this particular conflict is just too far gone. That’s where we differ obviously but that’s ok all conversations are give & take. 

In terms of morality I think unless you’re a real cold hearted bastard, you will be conflicted by any conflict resolution. If I was a Palestinian I’d be distraught but I also take the view that at this point this will rumble on & on so forcing a resolution now will cost lives initially but possibly save lives in the long terms as the conflict doesn’t go on & on so to will the cost. If you think differently that’s fine I’m not asking you to abandon your moral compass over it. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

11 hours ago, Teso dos Bichos said:

holy shit!!! Doug Jones won!! Only two-year term!! Last time a democrat won here in alabama it was 25 years ago, Richard shelby won but two years later switched parties. Both Shelby and Jones will represent Alabama.

Everyone seems surprised by it, which is a little disheartening because it's either a Democrat or a pedo... And the pedo came pretty close.

But as you say, Alabama has been a GOP stronghold for over 2 decades and when Jeff Sessions won last, he ran unopposed and got 97% of the vote (other 3% were write ins).

But a big win for pretty much anyone who opposes Trump's agenda.

[Spike]

On 12/13/2017 at 9:27 AM, Dr. Gonzo said:

Everyone seems surprised by it, which is a little disheartening because it's either a Democrat or a pedo... And the pedo came pretty close.

But as you say, Alabama has been a GOP stronghold for over 2 decades and when Jeff Sessions won last, he ran unopposed and got 97% of the vote (other 3% were write ins).

But a big win for pretty much anyone who opposes Trump's agenda.

Can one support a single item on an agenda and oppose the rest? Not really, which is why democracy can be pretty fucking shite at times.