UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[RandoEFC+]

Corbyn: Has some members in his party and other occasions that he should have dealt with better with regards to anti-semitism.

The media: Corbyn is a danger to the country, a racist and not fit to be prime-minister. The Labour Party are inherently anti-semitic.

Corbyn: Releases an entire separate manifesto on dealing with anti-semitism and all forms of discrimination against people's beliefs in the Labour Party, and on social media across the nation.

 

Johnson: Uses the terms "bum boys", "piccaninnies with watermelon smiles" and likens Muslim women to "letter boxes" in articles he wrote personally.

The media: Boris is known to be a bit controversial and split opinions at times.

Member of the public with two brain cells to rub together: Will you apologise for using those terms in your articles when you were a journalist?

Johnson: Well if you look hard enough at the things that anyone says then I'm sure you'll find things that could be interpreted as offensive (so no).

The media: CoRbYn'S £500 kAzIlLiOn TaX rAiD oN yOuR wAlLeT!

 

The British public: Still vote Conservative.

[Inverted]

The basic thing is that to most white Britons, the Jewish community is one which is held in high esteem, and if we have any stereotypes around them, they're mostly positive. 

Muslims - most likely South Asians and Arabs - on the other hand, and Afro Carribeans, are seen by a lot of white people as something truly "other" to themselves.

So one party's antisemitism problem is an object of universal outrage, and the other's enormous islamophobic track record, and persecution (even to death) of black Britons, is seen as inconsequential. 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Inverted

[Stan]

Lovely watch 

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Corbyn was underwhelming last night. We all know the anti-Semitism stuff is exploited but he should have still apologised, all it needed was something like 'I apologise for the behaviour of a minority of Labour members/supporters. It is not something I condone, anti-Semitism is racism like any other and anyone found guilty of it will be expelled from the party'. It would have been dismissed out of hand by many, because they don't actually care about it but it was an easy win.

The documents Corbyn has unveiled today RE NHS and the USA are pretty damning though.

[RandoEFC+]

Corbyn believes that Labour's positive message is enough to keep him above getting personal with Johnson, getting really stuck in to the damage done to schools, police, the NHS, the Russian rumours, the bum boys and watermelon smiles.

In another era, maybe it would be a viable strategy, it worked reasonably well against May because she lacked personality, but he's been too soft in this campaign and in trying to remain above the personal insults he has instead effectively handed the country over to the increasingly corrupt Tories who keep realising they can get away with more and more because the public like being lied to and mistreated, for the next 5 years.

[Inverted]

If the Tories get a majority in December, I hope the left in this country does go all out for power. 

"They go low, we stay high" is potentially the most disastrous political idea of the decade. Sticking to fact-based, policy-driven politics has essentially amounted to the left bending over and spreading its cheeks, whilst rabid free-market psychopaths storm to power.

The right-wing would never have apologised like Labour did for the anti-Semitism thing. Because politically, that would have been the smart thing. Once you apologise, you will be commanded to apologise relentlessly, to grovel more and more deeply, and you'll never escape it. 

The Tories never bent or broke ranks on Johnson's racism, or the constant evidence of racism throughout their party, and it worked perfectly for them. They weathered the storm, and now it's no longer front-page news. Anti-semitism still is. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Inverted

[RandoEFC+]

30 minutes ago, Inverted said:

If the Tories get a majority in December, I hope the left in this country does go all out for power. 

"They go low, we stay high" is potentially the most disastrous political idea of the decade. Sticking to fact-based, policy-driven politics has essentially amounted to the left bending over and spreading its cheeks, whilst rabid free-market psychopaths storm to power.

The right-wing would never have apologised like Labour did for the anti-Semitism thing. Because politically, that would have been the smart thing. Once you apologise, you will be commanded to apologise relentlessly, to grovel more and more deeply, and you'll never escape it. 

The Tories never bent or broke ranks on Johnson's racism, or the constant evidence of racism throughout their party, and it worked perfectly for them. They weathered the storm, and now it's no longer front-page news. Anti-semitism still is. 

I agree with the majority of this but throughout reading the post I can't help but think how much different it would be if the proportion of pro-Tory and pro-Labour news outlets were flipped over. Labour generally appeal more to people like us who go to the internet to do more reading and have further debate. I personally find more like-minded people online and in my everyday life than not. However, that's still a massive minority of the country. The vast majority barely pay any attention to the details, who has apologised, who hasn't, they get their news from BBC which gives them the bare bones of what's going on without the detail or speculation about what it could mean and what could be the motivations behind what has been said/done, or from the newspaper stands when they go to the shops, around 75% of which is against the Labour Party and Corbyn.

I agree they need to take a different tact completely though. Perhaps a more centrist Labour leader will get an easier time from the rags than Corbyn has but I don't know if that's enough.

[Inverted]

After scheduling interviews with all other major party leaders to be savaged by Andrew Neil, and airing the opposition leader's, the BBC has just confirmed they haven't booked the Prime Minister for one. 

Scum. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Inverted

[Stan]

47 minutes ago, Inverted said:

After scheduling interviews with all other major party leaders to be savaged by Andrew Neil, and airing the opposition leader's, the BBC has just confirmed they haven't booked the Prime Minister for one. 

Scum. 

Not sure if it's Johnson/Tories playing hard-to-get or how hard the BBC have actually tried.

I suspect it's the former...

[Inverted]

The Tories ignore the actual first female MP - Konstance Markievicz, noted socialist - in order to celebrate Nancy Astor, noted Nazi psychopath. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Inverted

[The Artful Dodger]

I've been disappointed in how Labour have baulked at pledging to raise the basic rate of tax, we all should be paying more. Not just the rich. Even the Lib Dems have come closer to saying so than Labour.

[Danny]

At this point you can’t logically vote for someone because another party have been racist, Labour have been openly racist to their Jewish members and have dealt with complaints regarding anti-semitism appallingly, not in any way an accident either. Corbyn’s Labour has a lot to apologise for to the Jewish community and Corbyn’s insistance on not apologising makes trusting the man harder and harder.

The Tories have openly had a long standing issue with islamophobia and Boris Johnson’s response to criticism of it has been quite frankly terrible. He’s essentially doubled down and tried to portray what he has said as something that shouldn’t be offensive.

Lib Dems as far as I’m aware have no major scandal other than they’re shit and will probably team up with the Tories anyway.

You just can’t vote based on racism which is a sad indictment of our society today.

The biggest annoyance outside of that for me is in an age where we have fact checkers to hand (fact checkers, not CCHQ twitter) politicians still can’t be prosecuted for lying to the public. The fact that  the Tory party defend their fact checking scandal and portray it as if they weren’t trying to deceive the general public is literally scandalous but fuck all will be done...to anyone. Politics can only work for the people when politicians are finally held accountable, Nick Clegg should be in prison

[CaaC (John)+]

Well, that's me & the wifes Postal Votes just been posted through the door and we will do what we do whenever there is an Election issue etc happening, sit down later and have a natter with each other, then a natter with our son & daughter and then decide who to vote for.

I am a Labour man myself but I don't like that arsehole Corbyn running the party, I get that horrible feeling he is another Michael Foot in the making and with this General Election coming up Corbyn will get a bucket full of eggs in his face just like Foot did.

Foot led Labour into the 1983 general election when the party obtained its lowest share of the vote since the 1918 general election and the fewest parliamentary seats it had had at any time since before 1945.  He resigned the party leadership after the election and was succeeded as leader by Neil Kinnock.

Michael Foot

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

More people should be shocked about the news the NHS is up for sale in Tory’s plans to make a trade deal with the US.

Us being the one western nation to follow in the US’s footsteps in healthcare would be a massive mistake. Anyone who argues that gutting the NHS and making the push for the UK to go to a US styled healthcare system with private insurance arguing “it’s cheaper for the taxpayer” should take a look at what each taxpayer pays into NHS. Then they ought to take a look at how much an American who wanted the same sort of baseline care has to pay each year.

And without the NHS negotiating our drug prices with the big pharmaceutical companies, it’ll be private insurers negotiating those drug prices. Compare drug prices in the US to the UK. 

Less taxpayer burden, sure. But a greater burden on individuals and even on businesses, as benefits packages are pretty appealing and that’s one thing that employers in the US use to entice people. But even then, the employees are expected to foot some of that bill taken out of their wages that week.

This’ll ultimately lead to some working class families needing to make a choice between their ability to pay for things they need to survive, or for properly addressing their own health.

As someone who’s directly experienced both types of healthcare, I think the American system is an absolute joke. A really expensive one. And in the US, overall, it’s a place where wages are higher than the UK and the general cost of living is lower - and healthcare and is still a burden. You put that burden on a place where people are paid less on average and where things cost more on average and it’s a much bigger burden.

If that’s a big issue in this election, that’s a point that really just needs to be hammered home.

[RandoEFC+]

This election is already resolved. It's been well established for months now that Boris Johnson could go up to Buckingham Palace and piss on the queen's shoes without losing votes.

It's done. We're too far down the Trumpian path now. Buckle up because we've got at least 5 years to come of what should be perceived as scandalous behaviour from people running the country, lying to the little people to trick them into voting against their own interests to make the rich richer while the rich media have no incentive to hold them to account.

5 or 10 years ago a rumour like the Russian report and a leak like the US trade documents would have finished a government in this country. Now it looks more like the governing elite and their friends in the media are playing a game to see just how far they can take the piss before someone stands up to them.

@SirBalon's boyfriend James O'Brien is always saying this but it's so true. A huge proportion of this country would rather be lied to than admit they're wrong.

"We can easily negotiate a Norway style agreement"

"It'll be the easiest deal in history"

"Let's take back control"

"The NHS isn't for sale"

All proven lies, beyond any dispute, but your typical Mail-reading Leave voter would still rather hear more of it than accept that they're "loony left" mates were actually right to call Farage a fraud and Johnson a liar.

They don't even pretend that Brexit is going to make a single thing better anymore either. At least they used to speculate (lie) about the parts of our lives that might actually get better outside of the EU. Now they dont even have to try because the little people have been taught to lie to themselves so that the politicians don't have to.

Read an actual impartial analysis earlier from someone who had actually bothered to read this trade deal document and the health market is just the tip of the iceberg. Apparently the Yanks want us to scrap a load of food standards and other regulations to, for example, remove health warnings from our food so that they can sell more unhealthy stuff to the idiot public. That doesn't mean we'll agree to it, but what do you think is more important to Boris Johnson and his government to be - protecting health standards in our country or the prospect of standing next to Donald Trump in front of the cameras announcing another "great, oven-ready deal" that's actually a disaster for our country but who cares because none of the mainstream media are going to challenge him on it apart from the Guardian lefty loons?

Country's gone.

[LFCMike]

3 hours ago, CaaC (John) said:

Well, that's me & the wifes Postal Votes just been posted through the door and we will do what we do whenever there is an Election issue etc happening, sit down later and have a natter with each other, then a natter with our son & daughter and then decide who to vote for.

I am a Labour man myself but I don't like that arsehole Corbyn running the party, I get that horrible feeling he is another Michael Foot in the making and with this General Election coming up Corbyn will get a bucket full of eggs in his face just like Foot did.

Foot led Labour into the 1983 general election when the party obtained its lowest share of the vote since the 1918 general election and the fewest parliamentary seats it had had at any time since before 1945.  He resigned the party leadership after the election and was succeeded as leader by Neil Kinnock.

Michael Foot

 

 

What's your reasons for not liking Corbyn? 

[CaaC (John)+]

1 minute ago, LFCMike said:

What's your reasons for not liking Corbyn? 

I don't get into debates about politics and that includes him, buddy, me and the wife will decide who to vote for tonight, post it off then that's the end of the story for me.  

[Inverted]

Tbh the only votes in Scotland that really matter are in the current Tory seats. Don't see them gaining any more up here, so it's a matter of how many the SNP can take from them. Labour are maybe 2nd in one of their seats, can't remember. 

If you live in Swinson's seat it would also be hilarious to chuck her out. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Inverted

[RandoEFC+]

[Guest]

I don't know personally why some people don't like Corbyn but it seems even some labour supporers don't like him so there is no smoke without fire I guess. 

[LFCMike]

8 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I don't know personally why some people don't like Corbyn but it seems even some labour supporers don't like him so there is no smoke without fire I guess. 

He's not perfect, no politician ever will be. What I can't get my head around is we have a straight choice between him and Johnson and people from working class backgrounds will go for Johnson.

People are heavily influenced by the media there's no doubt about that

[DeadLinesman]

12 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

He thinks it’s outrageous that you can read a tweet calling his son a liar on air, but is quite happy to call the public uneducated. Why couldn’t he have died in the jungle from aids a few years back.

[Honey Honey]

On 28/11/2019 at 17:19, RandoEFC said:

This election is already resolved. It's been well established for months now that Boris Johnson could go up to Buckingham Palace and piss on the queen's shoes without losing votes.

It's done. We're too far down the Trumpian path now. Buckle up because we've got at least 5 years to come of what should be perceived as scandalous behaviour from people running the country, lying to the little people to trick them into voting against their own interests to make the rich richer while the rich media have no incentive to hold them to account.

5 or 10 years ago a rumour like the Russian report and a leak like the US trade documents would have finished a government in this country. Now it looks more like the governing elite and their friends in the media are playing a game to see just how far they can take the piss before someone stands up to them.

@SirBalon's boyfriend James O'Brien is always saying this but it's so true. A huge proportion of this country would rather be lied to than admit they're wrong.

"We can easily negotiate a Norway style agreement"

"It'll be the easiest deal in history"

"Let's take back control"

"The NHS isn't for sale"

All proven lies, beyond any dispute, but your typical Mail-reading Leave voter would still rather hear more of it than accept that they're "loony left" mates were actually right to call Farage a fraud and Johnson a liar.

They don't even pretend that Brexit is going to make a single thing better anymore either. At least they used to speculate (lie) about the parts of our lives that might actually get better outside of the EU. Now they dont even have to try because the little people have been taught to lie to themselves so that the politicians don't have to.

Read an actual impartial analysis earlier from someone who had actually bothered to read this trade deal document and the health market is just the tip of the iceberg. Apparently the Yanks want us to scrap a load of food standards and other regulations to, for example, remove health warnings from our food so that they can sell more unhealthy stuff to the idiot public. That doesn't mean we'll agree to it, but what do you think is more important to Boris Johnson and his government to be - protecting health standards in our country or the prospect of standing next to Donald Trump in front of the cameras announcing another "great, oven-ready deal" that's actually a disaster for our country but who cares because none of the mainstream media are going to challenge him on it apart from the Guardian lefty loons?

Country's gone.

 

1. The narrow margin in modelling repeatedly shows in probability estimates that the election is not resolved. An average of 16% show up in polling as undecided. Enough to swing many marginal seats. As undecided make up their mind and show up in polls conservative proportionate overall vote share moves up and down in polling. A few weeks back modelling was estimating a Conservative majority at only a 30-40% probability.

2. The idea that all those voting Conservative are rabid immovable Johnson voters is hyperbolic, short cut generalising and likely an attention bias issue.

3. The little people being tricked into voting for something, aside from being condescending and stripping people of their agency, is a line trotted out by all parties in the UK since voting began. It was even an argument used by those who opposed suffrage expansions. The everyone is bias and brain washed but me line is the common fall back position of all those who lose in democracy, a good means to avert introspection. After all introspection is a threat to the ego, just look at Blairites after the results of introspection post 2015 Milliband loss.

4. "A rich media with no incentive to hold the government to account" seems to miss conceptualise the UK media environment but probably most importantly the mechanisms of holding a government to account. The daily readership of the Mail, Sun and Express is only about 2.5 million, probably for gossip. Most people don't invest the time of day to follow politics intently. Governments and political parties run various research methods to sound board policies and weight the data, all for the event that people come to know about it in order to judge favourability. 

5. The idea that the US trade leak would finish a government 5 or 10 years ago is odd. Cameron secured a majority 5 years ago despite supporting TTIP, CETA, austerity, the lansley bill etc, do you actually think a bit of suspicion from a US trade conversation would have brought him down? 

6. The things you call lies beyond any dispute are awash with ambiguity. They are not as black and white as you read them out to be. For example the idea that NHS isn't for sale is not something that can be met with a true or false response for a reader to make sound judgment. It requires accompanying depth with points that need to be weighted against one another. When something ambiguous is narrowed down to black and white the speaker cheapens the argument and debate. It forces people to pick a side and you will likely lose if the ambiguity makes your emotion look ridiculously over the top. I campaigned against the Lansley Bill and I voted for Jeremy Corbyn to become leader of the Labour party around the same time as he was the most serious about that and austerity at the time. At least back then we had hard proof what was going on. To campaign that more will happen is a political argument based on suspicion, that is an easy win for those accused. It will also normalise the lansley bill by making the NHS about hypothetical ideas and suspicion, making the status quo attached to the argument that it is not for sale. 

7. You say the country has gone, but in the words of the Smith's "has the world changed or have I changed?"

[RandoEFC+]

5 hours ago, Harvsky said:

 

1. The narrow margin in modelling repeatedly shows in probability estimates that the election is not resolved. An average of 16% show up in polling as undecided. Enough to swing many marginal seats. As undecided make up their mind and show up in polls conservative proportionate overall vote share moves up and down in polling. A few weeks back modelling was estimating a Conservative majority at only a 30-40% probability.

2. The idea that all those voting Conservative are rabid immovable Johnson voters is hyperbolic, short cut generalising and likely an attention bias issue.

3. The little people being tricked into voting for something, aside from being condescending and stripping people of their agency, is a line trotted out by all parties in the UK since voting began. It was even an argument used by those who opposed suffrage expansions. The everyone is bias and brain washed but me line is the common fall back position of all those who lose in democracy, a good means to avert introspection. After all introspection is a threat to the ego, just look at Blairites after the results of introspection post 2015 Milliband loss.

4. "A rich media with no incentive to hold the government to account" seems to miss conceptualise the UK media environment but probably most importantly the mechanisms of holding a government to account. The daily readership of the Mail, Sun and Express is only about 2.5 million, probably for gossip. Most people don't invest the time of day to follow politics intently. Governments and political parties run various research methods to sound board policies and weight the data, all for the event that people come to know about it in order to judge favourability. 

5. The idea that the US trade leak would finish a government 5 or 10 years ago is odd. Cameron secured a majority 5 years ago despite supporting TTIP, CETA, austerity, the lansley bill etc, do you actually think a bit of suspicion from a US trade conversation would have brought him down? 

6. The things you call lies beyond any dispute are awash with ambiguity. They are not as black and white as you read them out to be. For example the idea that NHS isn't for sale is not something that can be met with a true or false response for a reader to make sound judgment. It requires accompanying depth with points that need to be weighted against one another. When something ambiguous is narrowed down to black and white the speaker cheapens the argument and debate. It forces people to pick a side and you will likely lose if the ambiguity makes your emotion look ridiculously over the top. I campaigned against the Lansley Bill and I voted for Jeremy Corbyn to become leader of the Labour party around the same time as he was the most serious about that and austerity at the time. At least back then we had hard proof what was going on. To campaign that more will happen is a political argument based on suspicion, that is an easy win for those accused. It will also normalise the lansley bill by making the NHS about hypothetical ideas and suspicion, making the status quo attached to the argument that it is not for sale. 

7. You say the country has gone, but in the words of the Smith's "has the world changed or have I changed?"

I'd love to do your post justice and maybe I will later in the week but I'm so fatigued by the whole thing that I genuinely don't have the energy any more to offer much more than moaning, but I suppose I can take something from the fact that I'm able to recognise that.

I'll sum up my feelings - above all else, Brexit, austerity, even Johnson himself, it's this disinformation culture becoming normalised that terrifies me having seen what's happened in the US in recent years, and I don't think it's much of a stretch to point to the Conservative/Johnson/Brexit axis as the one that's most likely to employ these tactics which is why I'm desperate not to see them in power. I mean, it's not ambiguous that Vote Leave broke the law or that Johnson has a terrible track record for lying through his teeth even for a modern politician. The Tories threatening to look into C4's licence for what I think were cheeky but not disgraceful actions is the latest example of this and it just seems to be another thing every day.

Meanwhile, the BBC, having initially refused to let Johnson go on the Andrew Marr show until he agreed to be interviewed by Andrew Neil as well, have bottled it within 24 hours, apparently because "it's important for the country to hear from the PM after yesterday's terror attack".

Utterly pathetic.

[Honey Honey]

It was a good decision by the BBC. They got the Prime Minister on the box and grilled him about terrorism and criminal justice after 9 years of Tory rule. Worth having. 

Normalisation has already occurred. We are well past the becoming normalised stage. Many who don't trust Johnson will go out and vote for him because of the opposition/Brexit.