UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I think Brexit at any cost is his role, Mogg-Farage are the No Dealers only. Cummings just wants Brexit to happen, that's what I gather from him.

I think he hopes by increasing the threat of No Deal MPs will vote through any last minute deal, averting 'no deal' but delivering Brexit.

You might be right - at least on paper you're right that Cummings just looks like a Brexit at any cost guy, compared to Rees-Mogg and Farage. But I do think that there are a hell of a lot of rich people behind the scenes that have great power over the tories that stand to make a lot of money in the chaos of a No Deal Brexit, and they won't really care about what that really means for anybody else other than themselves. So that's where my worry comes from.

But everything you're saying is equally as plausible to me. It does make more sense they'd use the threat of no deal for some political posturing. But I can't see the EU offering anything other than May's deal... or a watered down version of May's deal. And maybe the only way to get a shit deal that avoids a no deal Brexit passed is to just play chicken with the MPs and use that threat of no deal Brexit.

At this point, who knows what happens.

[DeadLinesman]

4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

 

Daniella Westbrook has definitely had a hard paper round.

[Guest]

My opinion on a second referendum is this. Most people who voted to leave the EU would still vote to leave the EU even without a deal. Whether right or wrong they still would and that is democracy. However there is more than a reasonable possibility that enough have changed their mind. We were told things that weren't true and we were told we would get a deal. So personally I think a second vote is justified. 

[Guest]

Out of interest @CaaC (John) and @Bluewolf what did you vote? Just interested what our older forum members voted 

[CaaC (John)+]

I voted out and end of story really, my opinions might have changed a wee bit since then but I voted out once and will not vote again if there is another one because a lot of politicians who urged people to vote for staying in started shitting their pants and throwing a tantrum because no one listened to them in the first place, a democratic vote first time around is what it's all about, I chose then end of story and I will not have a debate why I chose out as I cannot be arsed talking about it, you hear it a million times in the media and it's doing my head in.

Edited October 9, 2019 by CaaC (John)
Spelling corrections

[Harry]

Could there be a referendum of no Deal vs best deal available?

[RandoEFC+]

2 hours ago, CaaC (John) said:

I voted out and end of story really, my opinions might have changed a wee bit since then but I voted out once and will not vote again if there is another one because a lot of politicians who urged people to vote for staying in started shitting their pants and throwing a tantrum because no one listened to them in the first place, a democratic vote first time around is what it's all about, I chose then end of story and I will not have a debate why I chose out as I cannot be arsed talking about it, you hear it a million times in the media and it's doing my head in.

Hate to be that guy that's probably being annoying but a few things:

1) many people would argue that the first vote wasn't democratic because the winning side broke electoral law.

2) people being able to change their mind is a pretty massive part of democracy. It's why we have elections every 4 years (typically).

3) the MPs campaigning for Remain threw tantrums because they were trying to get facts across while their Leave-campaigning colleagues were coming out with lies and fantasy (which we can now see) and not being held accountable by the media.

4) my personal view is that if you have a vote you should use it to vote for what you think is best for the country rather than withhold it out of some sort of principle because you don't like how they acted. God knows it won't be them that face the consequences of something bad happening to Britain because loads of people didn't vote the way they thought they should for the same reasons you're suggesting. It will be your friends, children and grandchildren who bear the brunt of it.

And 5) I think we're all sick of hearing about Brexit in the news. However, in a democracy it is important for all of us to be educated to some extent and vote for what we believe is best for the nation when we get the opportunity. The best way to stop hearing about Brexit is to have it overturned in a second referendum if that's what the majority of people want because if we leave the EU we will be hearing about the fallout for decades to come, especially if it is a no deal Brexit, it will be in the news every day regardless of whether things go as badly as people say they will or not.

[RandoEFC+]

[SirBalon]

There's no doubt that 'Remain' now leads the polls in a very convincing manner with lessons learned after the errors from previous polls back then. There are also big groups on social media that belong to those that have changed their minds from 'Leave' to 'Remain'. But that's not even the biggest reason for another referendum although it does obviously count and is used heavily by those pushing for a "People's Vote".

As @RandoEFC stated in his previous post, the fact democracy is an ever evolving exercise with more detailed analysis always coming to the fore with also the fact of Leave breaking Electoral Law. This doesn't mean that endless referendums have to be exercised forever, but what's for sure is that we now know a hell of a lot more not only that any type of Brexit is worse than being an EU Member State and that No Deal Brexit is catastrophic for the country on many levels and the only questionable part on that is how catastrophic it would be with obviously all state sectors vying to fight against the worse case scenario.

So now we're pretending that the deliverable Brexit is desirable when it isn't. If No Deal Brexit is what these Brexiters that can't change their minds even now wanted all along, why are your heroes now desperately trying to blame the European Union for the fact Boris Johnson's Deal CANNOT be accepted on many legal levels? These are the questions that I used to believe would be very powerful and convincing, but they don't work. Now these people are ADAMANT that they voted for a No Deal Brexit all along when in actual fact a No Deal Brexit was never even mentioned in the 'Leave Campaign' ever, not even once... Infact the first mention of a No Deal Brexit didn't crop up until 7 months AFTER the 2016 Referendum. With even Nigel Farage now saying that the only "Proper Brexit" is a No Deal Brexit and where HE infact banded about a Swiss Style model or the Norway+ Model which in actual fact aceepts and has FOM (Freedom of Movement) as part of their relationship with the EU. Ignoring his own mouth, his own words and continuing to have listenting and believing ears from these Brexit fanatics.

The best one I've heard during these three plus years is "You just have to BELIEVE more, just BELIEVE!" and that somehow REALITY would change. How can WE AS A COUNTRY have ended up enthralled to a man who said WITH A STRAIGHT FACE in the first months of 2016 that we can "Have our cake and eat it!".  That is literally the definition of a ludicrous delusion. The problem is you CANNOT have your cake and eat it because Boris Johnson never thought he was going to lose and have to be held to account and end up speaking with even more abandonment than he usually employs.

So where is the German car industry?

Where are the French Champagne or Italian Prosecco producers?

All these people that were going to REFUSE to let us leave and if we must, it'd be with the "Greatest deal in history" because they NEED our money! That they were going to let us re-write EU laws and have our own personal dispensation that nobody else would ever be able to achieve if they also decided to leave the EU.

I just don't know how EVEN TODAY anyone could've ever have seen how this could all ever end any differently. Not after more or less 7 or 8 months after the 2016 Referendum which is where I changed my mind dramatically as I suddenly saw the massive error I had made.

Remember that the 'Leave' CAMPAIGN (a "campaign" is what's used to convince people to put an 'X' in a particular box for your vote) sold Brexit as something great and benefitial to name a few... (these were some of the slogans used)

• Easiest Deal In History
• Have Our Cake And Eat It
• The German Car Industry Won't Countenance Any Brexit Without a Great Deal
• £350m A Week For The NHS
• Take Back Control
• Sovereignty

I could bloody go on forever with those shitty slogans. I bet the Brexit extremists aren't enjoying the amount of sovereignty we've had all along with our Parliament and our Courts of Justice! 

 

For anyone to say say there isn't a God given right to have another referendum after all that bullshit, I'll never know what more can convince even the thickest amongst our 60 million.

[Danny]

One of Brexit’s biggest problems is that they gave off this impression that it would be a very easy thing to do, so the public who voted for it expected it to be as easy as “get a deal May”...just take away the fact that throughout the vote no one made any note of the fact that it’ll most likely break the good Friday agreement...lawyers who worked within the EU who’s job it was to remain impartial stated that the process of changing all our laws would take around a decade...yet people are surprised it’s taken this long to get a deal (that apparently Boris doesn’t want)

[SirBalon]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

One of Brexit’s biggest problems is that they gave off this impression that it would be a very easy thing to do, so the public who voted for it expected it to be as easy as “get a deal May”...just take away the fact that throughout the vote no one made any note of the fact that it’ll most likely break the good Friday agreement...lawyers who worked within the EU who’s job it was to remain impartial stated that the process of changing all our laws would take around a decade...yet people are surprised it’s taken this long to get a deal (that apparently Boris doesn’t want)

It's "English Exceptionalism" mate. The fact that without any facts the "Leave Campaign" sold Brexit as everything more positive than the current arrangements we had by being a part of the European Union proves this. It was based on nothing tangible, nothing relating to the rules and regulations of being a Member State, rules and regulations we helped and sometimes headed in their creation decades ago.

[SirBalon]

Spivs and divs are many and they're a ongst us! These people want to take away the rights of EU citizens while they have a right of vote which alters my way of living.

 

[SirBalon]

More spivs and divs... Look at this element's face!!! Cunt? Inbreeding? Who knows!

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, SirBalon said:

More spivs and divs... Look at this element's face!!! Mongaloid? Inbreeding? Who knows!

 

Technically we shouldn't be using the term Mongoloid - if we're not meant to be using the word r*tard, we probably shouldn't be using a synonym for that word on these forums. It's also got some racial overtures, because it's implying that Mongolians look like people with down syndrome.

He looks like a dumb, fat, bald, cunt to me, though. And I'm sure he's just as stupid as he looks, if not moreso.

[SirBalon]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Technically we shouldn't be using the term Mongoloid - if we're not meant to be using the word r*tard, we probably shouldn't be using a synonym for that word on these forums. It's also got some racial overtures, because it's implying that Mongolians look like people with down syndrome.

He looks like a dumb, fat, bald, cunt to me, though. And I'm sure he's just as stupid as he looks, if not moreso.

Very true. Wasn’t thinking mongolians or anything of the sort. Just my repulsive reaction at the sight of such scum. I’ll delete that part although now we have your post.

The guy is a cunt. Better left like that.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

Very true. Wasn’t thinking mongolians or anything of the sort. Just my repulsive reaction at the sight of such scum. I’ll delete that part although now we have your post.

The guy is a cunt. Better left like that.

Yeah I don't blame you or anything, you're obviously not a bigot. It's something I was made aware of a few years ago while I drunkenly called someone a Mongoloid and one of my classmates at the time was of Mongolian descent and he let me know exactly why I shouldn't use that word - so it happens, I don't think most people are aware it's mocking both people with down syndrome & Mongolians. I honestly had no idea (even though... the Mongol part is in the fucking name lol), I doubt you did either.

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah I don't blame you or anything, you're obviously not a bigot. It's something I was made aware of a few years ago while I drunkenly called someone a Mongoloid and one of my classmates at the time was of Mongolian descent and he let me know exactly why I shouldn't use that word - so it happens, I don't think most people are aware it's mocking both people with down syndrome & Mongolians. I honestly had no idea (even though... the Mongol part is in the fucking name lol), I doubt you did either.

I cannot lie and say that I'm not aware of the mongolian connection because I do. Even worse is that I know it's more associated with down syndrome and the physical attributes. All that makes me a sinner but I can assure youbthatvit came out as a figure of speach driven by a sentiment associated with the physical look of an idiot that person has in that photo.

All of it when taken into account is what shows and proves how these words are destructive and it is just to try and eradicate them from common vocabulary in situations such as these where they're used. It shows my age I suppose in terms of me finding it difficult to mindset my langauge under the spell of emotion... Hence why emotions and being emotional on important subjects only leads to all sorts of errors be they small or even huge.

Cunt is a word I'm absolutely disgusted at and I can tell you now, I haven't used it as much as I have in the past couple of years. Infact I promise you that if I'd used that word more than twice in my whole life previous to these last two years I may be exaggerating.

It's the utter importance of the whole issue, the devestating effect that very badly educated people are having on everyone else because they have the same right as all... Their vote and say is as valuable in any calculative term to that of everyone else's. I don't know, but maybe the Greek philosophers (one of them) may have had quite some justification to feeling the way they did.

[Dr. Gonzo]

16 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

It's the utter importance of the whole issue, the devestating effect that very badly educated people are having on everyone else because they have the same right as all... Their vote and say is as valuable in any calculative term to that of everyone else's. I don't know, but maybe the Greek philosophers (one of them) may have had quite some justification to feeling the way they did.

The thing is... there's always been stupid people. And even stupid people are capable of learning things and then becoming less stupid. In fact, I could make a pretty decent argument (imo) that everyone (on the planet) is pretty fucking stupid in their own way (or ways).

We live in a strange time though. With the internet there's more information at our fingertips than ever before - but it still feels like the world is still so very stupid. And in many regards, it seems like people are getting more stupid rather than less stupid. I think the internet's ability to provide for greater information has been dangerously hijacked and it's now used by loads of people to spread misinformation.

People have been preying on the gullible for as long as people have had the spare time to come up with devious plots to separate fools from their money. And now they're not just going after actual money, they're going for political capital as well. Because with that political capital they can get more money. I don't really know what the solution is to this though, when you've got evidence of blatant lies being told to voters and various other campaign finance violations... that get no effective punishment whatsoever... there's no reason to assume that any protections will be put in place to hold people accountable for the shite they do when they campaign.

[SirBalon]

Wonderful work of product placement at a local Waterstones. Couldn't have been done better considering all the books are books being sold at the minute and all interrelated. 

 

[SirBalon]

I just love all these Brexit related bits and bobs that creep up and offer an overall picture that cements your will to keep the fight going to its limits.

This picture I'm uploading is related to the Ben Act passed by Parliament a few weeks back which forced the Government to request an extension for a specific reason which was to cancel out the disastrous No Deal Brexit which would bring the UK to its knees in all sorts of ways. The Government (Boris Johnson) then went around calling it "The Surrender Act" in an attempt to muster up civil unrest in the streets of the UK and in so doing push Parliament to concede due to the threat of violence.

I offer you more spivs and divs that have the same right as you to alter your life!

 

[God is Haaland]

xoxo

[SirBalon]

 

[SirBalon]

 

[SirBalon]

 

[Fairy In Boots]

9 hours ago, SirBalon said:

 

Lol what has some cunt writing an inaccurate column got to do with Brexit? 

You get more and more rabid over this by the day