Is Wayne Rooney an England legend?

[Smiley Culture]

53 goals, 119 appearances, 23 caps as captain, England's record goalscorer.

Discuss.

[RandoEFC+]

Depends how exclusive you want to make it. Nobody deserves to go in the same bracket as the players who won the World Cup but he is the record goalscorer so he's at least up there with "modern" legends like Beckham and Shearer for that even if he's probably not quite been appreciated as such because he's not that popular with fans off the pitch.

[Dickie]

I'll put him up there was Beckham and Shearer I guess. But England has done nothing during his tenure so it's hard to call the man a legend.

[SirBalon]

The question is if you put him up there with Bobby Moore, Bobby Charlton or Jimmy Greaves!!!

I know what I think.

[Dan+]

For me, no.

He's been too much of a flat track bully to be considered a legend. There aren't enough memorable, definitive moments he's had for England to put him in that category.

He's been good, but take out 10 qualifying goals and replace them with goals against say Uruguay, Costa Rica and then a winner in the next round and it paints a far better picture of him despite losing the top scorer tag.

[SirBalon]

Of course he's not an England legend!

Wayne Rooney has been part of some very good England sides and has failed to be the protagonist his status required as a massive name on the world stage.  The names I put forward and there are many more even in that squad and later squads should be considered more legendary.  Infact Gary Lineker is a more of an England legend than Rooney for me.

[Dan+]

45 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Of course he's not an England legend!

Wayne Rooney has been part of some very good England sides and has failed to be the protagonist his status required as a massive name on the world stage.  The names I put forward and there are many more even in that squad and later squads should be considered more legendary.  Infact Gary Lineker is a more of an England legend than Rooney for me.

Has he?

Got to add I think the fact this is a legitimate debate despite him being the record scorer is the answer itself.

[6666]

Numbers wise, as far as him being the top scorer it can be argued he is but as soon as you add context he feels less and less like a legend. I do feel though he suffered from the managers being shit and moving him around all over the place.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Do we have England legends other than the ones who won the World Cup? We've had some good players - but I don't think I've ever seen an England player really solidify themselves as a "legend" based on their international performances.

He's clearly been an important player, because he's the record goalscorer.

[Danny]

You can't talk about the Owens, Gerard's, Beckhams etc without him. And his goal scoring record does speak for itself.

But I don't think we really have any "legends" as such, England players shouldn't be held up on a pedestal because we've done well in qualifying, that's a standard expectation. I think it comes down to tournament performance as I think one of the few players that played as well for England as he did for his club was Ashley Cole.

[Spike]

13 minutes ago, Danny said:

You can't talk about the Owens, Gerard's, Beckhams etc without him. And his goal scoring record does speak for itself.

But I don't think we really have any "legends" as such, England players shouldn't be held up on a pedestal because we've done well in qualifying, that's a standard expectation. I think it comes down to tournament performance as I think one of the few players that played as well for England as he did for his club was Ashley Cole.

His goal scoring record doesn't speak for itself at all. Many pointless goals against weak teams and friendlies.

[Danny]

34 minutes ago, Spike said:

His goal scoring record doesn't speak for itself at all. Many pointless goals against weak teams and friendlies.

I mean it statistically does but hey ho

[RandoEFC+]

56 minutes ago, Spike said:

His goal scoring record doesn't speak for itself at all. Many pointless goals against weak teams and friendlies.

This is true but it's no different for most international players including the ones he had to overtake to become the record goalscorer. 

Bobby Charlton is next after Rooney with 48 goals including three hat tricks in friendlies and another five goals against Luxembourg over two qualifying matches. That's 14 of his goals right there, over a quarter. This is before mentioning that Charlton was around when England used to play in the Home Championships meaning that he constantly got to play against Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland every year or two which is where he got most of his other goals.

This isn't me trying to take credit away from Charlton but rather pointing out that you can talk down anyone's goalscoring record by pointing at the fact that most of their goals were scored against shit teams. Rooney hasn't had it significantly easier or harder in his England career than any of the guys he's outscored in terms of opposition or number of friendlies.

[Spike]

17 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

This is true but it's no different for most international players including the ones he had to overtake to become the record goalscorer. 

Bobby Charlton is next after Rooney with 48 goals including three hat tricks in friendlies and another five goals against Luxembourg over two qualifying matches. That's 14 of his goals right there, over a quarter. This is before mentioning that Charlton was around when England used to play in the Home Championships meaning that he constantly got to play against Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland every year or two which is where he got most of his other goals.

This isn't me trying to take credit away from Charlton but rather pointing out that you can talk down anyone's goalscoring record by pointing at the fact that most of their goals were scored against shit teams. Rooney hasn't had it significantly easier or harder in his England career than any of the guys he's outscored in terms of opposition or number of friendlies.

Bobby Charlton's goals won a World Cup, Rooney's have not. Quality of Quantity.

[Stan]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Do we have England legends other than the ones who won the World Cup? We've had some good players - but I don't think I've ever seen an England player really solidify themselves as a "legend" based on their international performances.

He's clearly been an important player, because he's the record goalscorer.

[Honey Honey]

You can be a legend of a team even if the team achieves nothing, or are only Man Utd allowed to crown players as legends?

[The Artful Dodger]

13 hours ago, Saturdays Are For The Boys said:

I'll put him up there was Beckham and Shearer I guess. But England has done nothing during his tenure so it's hard to call the man a legend.

Beckham doesn't deserve to be held in the same regard as Shearer or Rooney.

[The Artful Dodger]

10 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

This is true but it's no different for most international players including the ones he had to overtake to become the record goalscorer. 

Bobby Charlton is next after Rooney with 48 goals including three hat tricks in friendlies and another five goals against Luxembourg over two qualifying matches. That's 14 of his goals right there, over a quarter. This is before mentioning that Charlton was around when England used to play in the Home Championships meaning that he constantly got to play against Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland every year or two which is where he got most of his other goals.

This isn't me trying to take credit away from Charlton but rather pointing out that you can talk down anyone's goalscoring record by pointing at the fact that most of their goals were scored against shit teams. Rooney hasn't had it significantly easier or harder in his England career than any of the guys he's outscored in terms of opposition or number of friendlies.

Rooney scored most of his goals against the likes of Estonia, Belarus, San Marino, Slovkia etc. Charlton is England's best ever player.

[RandoEFC+]

27 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Rooney scored most of his goals against the likes of Estonia, Belarus, San Marino, Slovkia etc. Charlton is England's best ever player.

I've literally just addressed this in the post you quoted. I'm not taking anything away from Charlton and obviously he won a World Cup I was merely addressing the fact that you can't just write off Rooneys goal record because of scoring against shit opposition when that's true of most high scoring internationals.

[The Artful Dodger]

International football is mostly mickey mouse anyway, Rooney's done enough to be considered a great but falls short of the elite, of which Charlton is one.

[Honey Honey]

Rooney's Euro 2004 performance puts him top 4 behind Lineker, Gascoigne and Shearer in the post 1966 England tournament greats imo. Attacking wise anyway.

[Smiley Culture]

Bobby Charlton's goals at tournaments: 5

Wayne Rooney's goals at tournaments: 7

Charlton scored 3 in the 1966 World Cup, two of which were in the Semi-Final, so people will, rightly IMO, say his contribution was greater than Rooney's at major tournaments. 

 

[RandoEFC+]

2 hours ago, Smiley Culture said:

Bobby Charlton's goals at tournaments: 5

Wayne Rooney's goals at tournaments: 7

Charlton scored 3 in the 1966 World Cup, two of which were in the Semi-Final, so people will, rightly IMO, say his contribution was greater than Rooney's at major tournaments. 

 

It's nice when somebody actually does the research rather than just defaulting to discrediting Rooney because he never won the World Cup. I'd wager about 95% of people who want to make the comparison with Charlton do so without any knowledge of the facts you or I have posted.

[Smiley Culture]

8 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

It's nice when somebody actually does the research rather than just defaulting to discrediting Rooney because he never won the World Cup. I'd wager about 95% of people who want to make the comparison with Charlton do so without any knowledge of the facts you or I have posted.

It was off the back of what you was saying that got me interested in breaking down their goals and finding a way to discredit both, seeing as Rooney gets it done for him regularly and it led me to that. 

[Guest]

I think he is an under appreciated. Man united top scorer england top scorer not a bad record