England National Team Discussion

[Danny]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

I'm still adamant in saying England doesn't have the defence or midfield to really play a progressive system. 

Southgate is a limited manager, but when your best technical midfielder is 19 and your best all around CB has yet to really play at the highest level, you can't blame him with always opting for a more compact system. 

 

 

 

Have been saying this for a while and it’s why Maddison doesn’t make the team. Our best centre mids are either best at tackling, carrying the ball or a Jack of all trades, but no one is a stand out passer of the ball who can dictate play and unlock defences. Because of this our midfield needs to be defensive and behind them even more because creativity has to come from the wing backs rather than through the middle.

[Inverted]

2 hours ago, Cicero said:

I'm still adamant in saying England doesn't have the defence or midfield to really play a progressive system. 

Southgate is a limited manager, but when your best technical midfielder is 19 and your best all around CB has yet to really play at the highest level, you can't blame him with always opting for a more compact system. 

 

 

 

Idk, to m mind could easily play a guy like Rice as a holder and have a duo like Mount and Bellignham or Bellingham or anyone else ahead of him. 

As for a progressive defense, they have possibly the most creative RB in Europe and a semi-regular goalscorer in Ben Chillwell. John Stones is a proven CB in a possession system and Tomori is one of the fastest defenders out there as well as being technically solid. 

The only thing is, it would require a strong commitment to a progressive system and a degree of balls to play these players as opposed the usual suspects.

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, Inverted said:

Idk, to m mind could easily play a guy like Rice as a holder and have a duo like Mount and Bellignham or Bellingham or anyone else ahead of him. 

As for a progressive defense, they have possibly the most creative RB in Europe and a semi-regular goalscorer in Ben Chillwell. John Stones is a proven CB in a possession system and Tomori is one of the fastest defenders out there as well as being technically solid. 

The only thing is, it would require a strong commitment to a progressive system and a degree of balls to play these players as opposed the usual suspects.

Rice isn’t a holder. He’s a box to box and plays as such for West Ham. He also isn’t a player you’d expect to retain and progress the ball against top midfielders given he shines in a pragmatic and compact system that is Moyes ball. 
 

Mount excels at the half turn and that is it. Jack of all trades, master of none. Another player that will vanish against top midfields given he hasn’t improved as a player in 3 years. 
 

Bellingham is the only one who could hold his own. 
 

John Stones is limited defensively and Southgate can’t implement a possession based system to hide his flaws. Tomori has horrid positional awareness and has to make up for it with his pace. Maguire is a fridge and Guehi, who has all the tools, still vastly unproven. 

[Waylander]

23 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Rice isn’t a holder. He’s a box to box and plays as such for West Ham. He also isn’t a player you’d expect to retain and progress the ball against top midfielders given he shines in a pragmatic and compact system that is Moyes ball. 
 

Mount excels at the half turn and that is it. Jack of all trades, master of none. Another player that will vanish against top midfields given he hasn’t improved as a player in 3 years. 
 

Bellingham is the only one who could hold his own. 
 

Agree on Rice and Mount not so sure on Bellingham.

I have only seen Bellingham in glimpses play for England, good energy and good moving the ball forward though did not stand out defensively as are say a McTomminay or Fernandinho. Looks to me more like a box to box midfielder too. 

 

[Waylander]

6 hours ago, Reluctant Striker said:

Germany, Italy & Brazil are the 3 sides who seem to win regularly. Who very much believe they will be doing so. And even they capitulate spectacularly at times.

It's easy to be unaware of, or forget, that Spain & France for many years repeatedly failed despite growing expectations. They were not always in the Argentina division. And that Holland or The Netherlands, were & still remain, the nation described as the best footballing nation never to win a World Cup.

When England win, it stirs memories & thoughts of 1966, of 1-5 in Germany, of 4-1 vs Holland at Wembley. Of 1-0, finally, vs Argentina in 2002. All when it mattered. The Dutch 1 giving Scotland every chance.

When England lose, it's all the defeats. And more, it'll never work than anything coming home.

I don't think England will win this next World Cup. I think this batch of players & manager have peaked. And have done beyond all reasonable expectations. But the nation very much could win, at some stage, with their Zidane, or Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, etc generation.

Any side that ever wins a World Cup, it is all about a great many things being in alignment.

I don't expect much either except progressing past the group stage.

One thing that will be interesting to consider is we always hear England fail because of a long and intense season well with Qatar falling midway it will be interest to see energy wise do we still flag for energy compared to our opponents. 

 

[Danny]

Grealish really faded out of that game, lost his head and got a silly yellow too.

[Waylander]

3 minutes ago, Danny said:

Grealish really faded out of that game, lost his head and got a silly yellow too.

He looked lively when he came on and seemed to be building play yet then faded and was stretching for balls and losing possession. 

Think he should have come on earlier.

[Stan]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

Have been saying this for a while and it’s why Maddison doesn’t make the team. Our best centre mids are either best at tackling, carrying the ball or a Jack of all trades, but no one is a stand out passer of the ball who can dictate play and unlock defences. Because of this our midfield needs to be defensive and behind them even more because creativity has to come from the wing backs rather than through the middle.

Not saying the game has to be based around Maddison (far from it), but Southgate is making a rod for his own back by restricting to one system that he doesn't utilise properly and to it's best effect. 

Having said that, you still need some creative players in the middle to support the wing backs. Maddison has been performing to a level miles above everyone else in a 3-at-the-back system which tries to utilise wing backs. 

Your most creative English centre-mid for the last 3-4 seasons is sitting at home and England wonder why they struggle through games and look so immensely boring. 

[Dan+]

Maddison isn't necessarily the answer to all problems, but what we do know is that whatever his alternative is isn't even close to working, so it's another L for Southgate.

[Danny]

11 hours ago, Stan said:

Not saying the game has to be based around Maddison (far from it), but Southgate is making a rod for his own back by restricting to one system that he doesn't utilise properly and to it's best effect. 

Having said that, you still need some creative players in the middle to support the wing backs. Maddison has been performing to a level miles above everyone else in a 3-at-the-back system which tries to utilise wing backs. 

Your most creative English centre-mid for the last 3-4 seasons is sitting at home and England wonder why they struggle through games and look so immensely boring. 

Wouldn't disagree with the bold tbh, but it's brought him relative success so he'll stick with it.

One thing I'd say is Maddison benefits a lot from being in front of Ndidi and Tielemans, both players are better than any options we have in the national team and Tielemans especially can actually play as a more deep lying playmaker, England doesn't really have that at all.

I don't see why Maddison couldn't play behind a two up top and still have the defensive solidity behind him, but unless he can play multiple positions (some defensively) like Saka for example, it seems to come down to whether or not Southgate prefers Maddison over Foden/Grealish/Rashford/Sancho etc.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

Wouldn't disagree with the bold tbh, but it's brought him relative success so he'll stick with it.

One thing I'd say is Maddison benefits a lot from being in front of Ndidi and Tielemans, both players are better than any options we have in the national team and Tielemans especially can actually play as a more deep lying playmaker, England doesn't really have that at all.

I don't see why Maddison couldn't play behind a two up top and still have the defensive solidity behind him, but unless he can play multiple positions (some defensively) like Saka for example, it seems to come down to whether or not Southgate prefers Maddison over Foden/Grealish/Rashford/Sancho etc.

Tielemans, yes. But Ndidi's form has dropped off a cliff last 12-18 months and is misused by Rodgers, but I do see the point. 

As for Maddison over those 4, they're not really comparable? All 4 are either wingers or a striker and let's be honest, Southgate would prefer anyone over Maddison because he's an idiot

 

[Danny]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

Tielemans, yes. But Ndidi's form has dropped off a cliff last 12-18 months and is misused by Rodgers, but I do see the point. 

As for Maddison over those 4, they're not really comparable? All 4 are either wingers or a striker and let's be honest, Southgate would prefer anyone over Maddison because he's an idiot

 

That was sort of my point, he prefers players who can attack from the wings rather than just centrally.

[DeadLinesman]

[Cicero]

It's becoming tedious now.

England's alleged best player and the answer to England's problems, is always the player not playing. Grealish, Bellingham, Maddison, Tomori, TAA, etc, etc. Fans have been begging Southgate to use them, he has, and they too have been poor. 

The issue issue is far too deep that a limited manager can solve. 

 

[Stan]

16 minutes ago, Cicero said:

It's becoming tedious now.

England's alleged best player and the answer to England's problems, is always the player not playing. Grealish, Bellingham, Maddison, Tomori, TAA, etc, etc. Fans have been begging Southgate to use them, he has, and they too have been poor. 

The issue issue is far too deep that a limited manager can solve. 

 

Maddison was 22 when he made his one and only England appearance. And only played 34 minutes at that.

He's barely been given a chance. 

England need a far more progressive and less cautious manager to make use of all the talent they have in the squad. And I say that even if Maddison continued to be omitted. There's far too much talent there that shouldn't go to waste, or at least have their opportunity to win silverware with England wasted. 

[Cicero]

Just now, Stan said:

Maddison was 22 when he made his one and only England appearance. And only played 34 minutes at that.

He's barely been given a chance. 

England need a far more progressive and less cautious manager to make use of all the talent they have in the squad. And I say that even if Maddison continued to be omitted. There's far too much talent there that shouldn't go to waste, or at least have their opportunity to win silverware with England wasted. 

Still think England are too limited in CM and defence to really play an open game against the best in the world. 

 

 

 

 

[Reluctant Striker]

It is a bit odd that Mount is always in the team/squad and Maddison isn't. But I don't see Maddison as someone who would have made a dramatic difference. It seemed to take a long time for Maddison to get back into Leicester's team at 1 stage.

And as much as Southgate was questioned over TAA missing out to Walker, Trippier & James.. even Liverpool fans are questioning TAA now.

I guess because Southgate's England do not have a set formation it goes against having 2 CAM's in the squad. Utility & defensive seem to be qualities he favours. It's all Villa's fault really. They signed him as a midfielder from Palace. Then played him as the middle CB in a wing-back formation.

[Danny]

24 minutes ago, Reluctant Striker said:

It is a bit odd that Mount is always in the team/squad and Maddison isn't. But I don't see Maddison as someone who would have made a dramatic difference. It seemed to take a long time for Maddison to get back into Leicester's team at 1 stage.

And as much as Southgate was questioned over TAA missing out to Walker, Trippier & James.. even Liverpool fans are questioning TAA now.

I guess because Southgate's England do not have a set formation it goes against having 2 CAM's in the squad. Utility & defensive seem to be qualities he favours. It's all Villa's fault really. They signed him as a midfielder from Palace. Then played him as the middle CB in a wing-back formation.

Mount and Maddison aren't really in competition with each other, Mount is picked for his ability to act defensively in a midfield 3. Maddison doesn't have that and so isn't in contention as a midfielder.

[Cicero]

4 minutes ago, Danny said:

Mount and Maddison aren't really in competition with each other, Mount is picked for his ability to act defensively in a midfield 3. Maddison doesn't have that and so isn't in contention as a midfielder.

Mount has no ability atm. 

[Stan]

59 minutes ago, Danny said:

Mount and Maddison aren't really in competition with each other, Mount is picked for his ability to act defensively in a midfield 3. Maddison doesn't have that and so isn't in contention as a midfielder.

Has Mount done that for Chelsea, or does he do it?

[Reluctant Striker]

50 minutes ago, Danny said:

Mount and Maddison aren't really in competition with each other, Mount is picked for his ability to act defensively in a midfield 3. Maddison doesn't have that and so isn't in contention as a midfielder.

Well I think that's where Southgate goes a bit too far. Thinking of defensive qualities of someone playing behind Kane, Sterling, etc.

Like when he took Grealish back off in the Euro's.

Sometimes you have to play to win games. And I'm not sure if England did have a true mega star attacking/creative talent, if Southgate could handle using him.

[Michael]

I think Southgate has a very tough task choosing who he is going to take to the World Cup and who he is going to leave behind. I believe England will give another good showing at the World Cup, but I don't think we will win it, despite the fact that we were so close to winning the Euros last summer. 

[Azeem]

If England beat some traditional big team (Argentina, France) on their way to QFs or semis than it would be a successful campaign. 

[Cicero]

Both Chilwell and James out of the WC. 

 

[Stan]

26 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Both Chilwell and James out of the WC. 

 

James Justin and Luke Thomas it is then. World Cup is England's.