Netherlands National Team Discussion

[Honey Honey]

Hang on a second. Dick Advocaat isn't bald today  he has a wig that gives off the appearance of an old age thinning and receding hairline 

[Dan+]

2 hours ago, Batard said:

There was a discussion about this on the Totally Football podcast. A British journalist who’s lived and written about Dutch football for the last 20+ years sited the lack of bravery to look outside of Holland for new ideas. It’s the same old same old rehashed by the Dutch. That when Advocaat steps down Gullit is being touted to be his replacement says all you need to know about the jobs for the old boys mentality in Holland. Well worth a listen.

It really surprises me that it's Holland who have this issue. I've always imagined them to be very pro giving new coaches / players a chance.

I don't profess to be an expert in Dutch football at all but surely it's worth looking at someone like Cocu.

[Spike]

4 hours ago, VanPanna said:

Yes but only from the Turks and Morrocan communities, they are so extreme towards their back ground but havent even stepped foot in their grand parents/parents country.   

 

 

 

 

Do you think they adapt to the 'Dutch philosphy'? Or is Quaresma level 'street football' mentality more common?

I honestly find it truly bizarre that immigrants (or children of) are over represented in many European national teams. It is really surprising seeing the French team compromised of black Frenchmen despite not having that large of a population. Is the stereotype of 'coaches prefer balck players because the physically mature faster' actually true? I'd like to see data on youth level players that charts physical development over puberty.

 

[Panna King]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

Do you think they adapt to the 'Dutch philosphy'? Or is Quaresma level 'street football' mentality more common?

I honestly find it truly bizarre that immigrants (or children of) are over represented in many European national teams. It is really surprising seeing the French team compromised of black Frenchmen despite not having that large of a population. Is the stereotype of 'coaches prefer balck players because the physically mature faster' actually true? I'd like to see data on youth level players that charts physical development over puberty.

 

The thing is there are alot of Moroccan who are in the Dutch youth levels. They come from not the best back grounds, then they learn their trade in The dutch youth levels but then have this incredible desire to play for Morocco.  There was a recent case for Anwar El Ghazi who played in all levels of the Dutch youth but at 20 he felt he had to choose between Netherlands or Morocco, he probably doesnt even know anything about Moroccan football or anything at all, he even asked Ronaldo for his advice  , its ridiculous. 

[Panna King]

3 hours ago, Dan said:

It really surprises me that it's Holland who have this issue. I've always imagined them to be very pro giving new coaches / players a chance.

I don't profess to be an expert in Dutch football at all but surely it's worth looking at someone like Cocu.

Yes we always give youth a chance but all the good youth play abroad after getting stolen at the age of 16. Players like Fosu-mensah, Ake would be established players now if they stayed in Holland. We also have 12 year old at Barcelona its ridiculous. 

[Panna King]

We have had some terrible bad luck in this qualification,  had a perfectly good goal disallowed agaisnt Sweden to win 1-2, should never of lost to France at home but the keeper made a huge mistake, Sweden also got gifted a win agaisnt France when Lloris kicked the ball to a sweden player in the 94th minute. So add 4 points on to what we have, take a few off Sweden, we be fighting for top spot.

[Dave]

I did mention in the transfer rumours thread I could not understand why clubs like Palace, Brighton and Everton were scrambling for Dutch talent when it was only Holland, Scotland and San Marino that didn't qualify for The Euro's. But hey, cheap Dutch talent is better than academy players based on the players they developed 20 years ago.

Hopefully DeBoer tries and saves this generation so people can judge if his tactical philosophy is worth more than a quick save attempt on football manager.

[Panna King]

We are to blame for our succesful youth system which is now being pulled apart by clubs from the Premier league and Spain.

 

need something in place to keep the young players to play their trade in Holland.

[Dave]

8 minutes ago, VanPaddy said:

We are to blame for our succesful youth system which is now being pulled apart by clubs from the Premier league and Spain.

 

need something in place to keep the young players to play their trade in Holland.

Yes. All those great players that go abroad and achieve nothing. That's the problem. 

[Panna King]

Just now, Aaroncpfc said:

Yes. All those great players that go abroad and achieve nothing. That's the problem. 

Yes its stupid, even recently a top prospect from Ajax, striker which we lack at the moment Millen Baars moved to Man Utd, he wont even get a kick in the first team with the way they are at the moment, its a shame as he would of probably achieved something with Ajax in the next few years. 

[HK85]

The Koeman brothers would sort them out. 

[Panflute]

No cohesion. There was an article ran by one of our newspapers which said that the young players were more busy ordering diamonds than focusing on the job at hand.

It's real easy to go all "today's youth is lazy", but in the case of the Dutch NT it is true. It started with idiots like Gregory van der Wiel who were more preoccupied with their rap career than developing their football skills, and now almost the entire team is full of people like that. Already during the past World Cup there were different "factions" where players with Moroccan roots only hung out with each other, stuff like that.

Robben is also disrespected, which should tell you a lot since he is (or was, by now) A) the captain B) the only remaining player in the squad who is truly world-class C) the only player who was always willing to give interviews, thank the supporters on the pitch, etc. It should tell you a lot that the only guy who plays and behaves like a professional footballer is ridiculed by the mediocre-at-best individuals who form the bulk of the Dutch national team right now.

All of this isn't a problem when you have a manager who knows how to deal with this. Louis van Gaal's authoritarian style during the 2014 World Cup certainly still gave us results.

To be honest, I think 90% of the players in the current squad are a bunch of detestable cunts, so I don't feel the least bit bad about not going to the World Cup if it meant that these morons were going to represent us.

[Panflute]

Another interesting if controversial article by an analyst talked about ever since the "Cruyff revolution" in Ajax a few years ago, Ajax and by extension the National Team have been taken over by the same small clique of ex-footballers who think they can fix everything by hinging on the past glory of the totaalvoetbal ideology while resisting every form of innovation and modernization that doesn't come from within. By contrast, the Germans looked at the training methods and football systems of other European football associations, and took the most successful, revolutionary aspects to implement in their own plan.

Whether this is a fair assessment is up for debate, because Cruyff's influence did manage to counter the increasing domination of football boards by pen pushers and accountants who were only interested in the profitability of the clubs while dismissing on-field success as something of secondary importance (if they considered at all).

On the other hand, if you look at the fact that 3 of our 4 past trainers (Van Gaal, Blind and Advocaat) were part of the same Sparta squad in 1981, you do get the idea that nepotism is a problem, and we aren't employing the people with the best credentials.

Personally, I think it's worth trying to work with a reputable non-Dutch coach and see if he can whip the pansies into shape.

[Dr. Gonzo]

The players aren't very good and neither are the managers - so while the Netherlands has traditionally been a strong European side... they aren't so much anymore with this current generation of Dutch players.

[Panna King]

3 hours ago, Panflute said:

Another interesting if controversial article by an analyst talked about ever since the "Cruyff revolution" in Ajax a few years ago, Ajax and by extension the National Team have been taken over by the same small clique of ex-footballers who think they can fix everything by hinging on the past glory of the totaalvoetbal ideology while resisting every form of innovation and modernization that doesn't come from within. By contrast, the Germans looked at the training methods and football systems of other European football associations, and took the most successful, revolutionary aspects to implement in their own plan.

Whether this is a fair assessment is up for debate, because Cruyff's influence did manage to counter the increasing domination of football boards by pen pushers and accountants who were only interested in the profitability of the clubs while dismissing on-field success as something of secondary importance (if they considered at all).

On the other hand, if you look at the fact that 3 of our 4 past trainers (Van Gaal, Blind and Advocaat) were part of the same Sparta squad in 1981, you do get the idea that nepotism is a problem, and we aren't employing the people with the best credentials.

Personally, I think it's worth trying to work with a reputable non-Dutch coach and see if he can whip the pansies into shape.

Dutch football does need a change of direction, the 4 3 3 is dieing out now and the type of players The Dutch produce are just not physical enough, there is a certain brand they want to play but just do not seem to have the players for it, it reminds me a lot of Wenger with Arsenal.  He hasn't moved on and you need physical players in midfield to win things.  This goes to back to when Ned were at their best more recently with Davids, Seedorf, Van Bommel in midfield, the most physical midfielder the Dutch have now is Tonny Vilhena .

Regarding the current crop of players, there a few quality players like Van Dijk, Karsdorp, De Vrij, Strootman and de Ligt looks like he has the passion of a future captain for the team, but the other young players have a terrible attitude, they think they have made it but achieved nothing, this has been going on since 2007 when The Dutch won back to back u21 tournaments, none of those players actually went on to do anything apart from disappearing after the age of 24. 

The whole structure at the KNVB needs to be changed also, On Studio Voetbal the other day, Ron Jans said no we do not need a foreign coach, there are plenty of Dutch... but some of the names he was naming were quite alarming to how arrogant people are in Dutch football that this style is still a success, they were even talking about getting Bert Van Marwijk 

[SirBalon]

There's also a more simplistic factor (there's many things wrong though) in that this present generation of Dutch footballers is really not upto standard.  How many Dutch footballers are first team players at top club outside Holland?

Where are all the Dutch protagonists!

I was listenting to Jordi Cruyff the other day on a Spanish radio station and he repeated this various times.

[Panna King]

56 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

There's also a more simplistic factor (there's many things wrong though) in that this present generation of Dutch footballers is really not upto standard.  How many Dutch footballers are first team players at top club outside Holland?

Where are all the Dutch protagonists!

I was listenting to Jordi Cruyff the other day on a Spanish radio station and he repeated this various times.

Holland has not produced players since 2008, production has stalled and the players that have moved, have gone premature. The real last top Dutch player is Kevin Strootman,  van Dijk even moved too early from Holland.

[Stan]

13 minutes ago, VanPaddy said:

Holland has not produced players since 2008, production has stalled and the players that have moved, have gone premature. The real last top Dutch player is Kevin Strootman,  van Dijk even moved too early from Holland.

Bas Dost? Wijnaldum? Daley Blind maybe?

[Panna King]

3 minutes ago, Stan said:

Bas Dost? Wijnaldum? Daley Blind maybe?

Daley Blind is average and would not get anywhere near the great sides,  Dost is awkward, has these scoring bursts  but is not world class  and Gini does nothing for the national side.

[Panna King]

One of the best young players we had is quincy Promes  but he fucked off to Russia,  i mean what talent goes to Russia if it isnt for money.

[Batard]

1 hour ago, VanPaddy said:

One of the best young players we had is quincy Promes  but he fucked off to Russia,  i mean what talent goes to Russia if it isnt for money.

Mail order brides?

[ScoRoss]

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

21 hours ago, Stan said:

Bas Dost? Wijnaldum? Daley Blind maybe?

Wijnaldum was good for us last season - but he's got issues with consistency that have been much more apparent this season. He's also got this mental problem where he doesn't really turn up in away games.

With the rest of the quality in the Dutch national side, they'd need someone to carry that group of players that's ranging somewhere between average-a little above average on their back. Wijnaldum's not that player, he's one of the a little above average ones that would need to be carried by those that are more talented.

[Panna King]

Interesting piece in the sports news, they looked at the successful youth sides over the last few years and now look who those players play for now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Panflute]

Wijnaldum is decent, but when you compare him to midfielders from previous generation (Seedorf, Davids, Sneijder in his prime), it's a huge step down. That he has to be brought up as one of our saving graces is more than telling.

I'd say Robben was our last truly world class player in the NT.