No Further Action to be Taken After Firmino/Holgate Incident

[RandoEFC+]

30 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Wouldn’t get sent off for pushing a player into a set of fans and then laying his hands on the referee? 

Youd like to think so. 

Push in the back isn't a red but it should've been a yellow. Hands on the ref is part of the incident being investigated.

[Rick]

He deliberately pushed him into the crowd, don't say anything otherwise. It was dangerous and stupid. Definite red, add that to putting his hands on the ref and o thing Holgate is in plenty of trouble himself. 

 

[RandoEFC+]

This discussion is the first I've seen anywhere from any fan that Holgate should have seen red for that. We all have our allegiances and I think that's never a red, not even borderline, and if we continue this argument we will just go round in circles and I'm more than bored of it so agree to disagree.

[The Artful Dodger]

Defo a red. Dangerous play.

[Burning Gold]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

This discussion is the first I've seen anywhere from any fan that Holgate should have seen red for that. We all have our allegiances and I think that's never a red, not even borderline, and if we continue this argument we will just go round in circles and I'm more than bored of it so agree to disagree.

You didn't watch it on BBC last night then, because both commentators were saying it could or should be a red.

[LFCMadLad]

5 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

You didn't watch it on BBC last night then, because both commentators were saying it could or should be a red.

Most people barring Everton fans think he should have walked. 

[Machado]

9 hours ago, El_Loco said:

Actually "negro" is a better and more respectful term to refer to a black person than "preto" in brazilian portuguese.

Differently from english, the word "negro" itself is not offensive. My mom is half-black and some of her best friends call her "negra", in an affecionate way.

The main racial slur in Brazil is "macaco" ("monkey").  

Not relevant to the case but it's the same in Portugal although preto can still (but rarely) be used in an affecionate way.

No one really calls black people monkeys over here. It's probably offensive in most parts of the world but it's just not a thing here.

Preto is the only word used when there is intent to offend, but like I said, not always the case.

[Mel81x+]

I've learned one thing from all the shit that has stirred the pot in all of these racial allegations. Don't try and communicate your discontent with someone in a language they don't understand (easier said than done when you're reeling from anger) because nothing but misunderstandings arise from it. Holgate pushes Firmino, puff your chest, throw some handbags, spew a few Fuck Yous (Everyone understands that) and be done. When you go local things just go haywire. I don't think Robbie is a racist and far from it but this will just carry over till god knows when and even if he is proven innocent its going to be an unpleasant addition to his career going forward.

Also, I hope we don't see any "support" t-shirts because its really quite unnecessary.

[Danny]

14 hours ago, SirBalon said:

I was unaware of that mate... Sounds similar to the south of Italy where for some reason they also use the Spanish for black “negro” to refer to black people instead of the Italian word “Nero” which although not deemed as racist if used, it is more inappropriate and maybe disrespectful.  I know that Spain’s rule for 200 years in the south of Italy left a lot of Spanish words and many terminologies that exist today.

Maybe @Machado can fill us in the Portugal’s Portuguese terms of phrase in cases such as these. I know my many Portuguese friends in London (although they were born in London like myself) use the word “Preto” to refer to a black person without any disrespect intended.

Let me just add for those that can’t fathom how these things work in the Latin speaking world and culture and I’m going to leave a phrase commonly used without any disrespect or thought of mind directed at being racist or disrespectful to black people when used.  It’s commonly used even today and I’m sure many in the Anglo speaking world will find it shocking and even though I’ve just finished saying nothing is meant by it at all they will still deem a person using it racist. This is what I’m talking about that the cultural differences are immense and should be first understood before labelling or punishing occurs. But the way, this exact phrase (obviously in Italian) is also used in Italy.

”Hoy trabajé como un negro”

Translated:

”Today I worked like a black man”

This phrase is used when someone has put in a serious hard shift at work and is usually used by those that work in heavy manual labour. Shocked?  I’m sure you guys are, but I can guarantee you that absolutely nothing racial is in anyone’s mind when using it even though you won’t be able to get your heads around it which is understandable.

I think it's less shock and just more understanding that Spain (obviously not Brazil) has a poor record for racism and what you consider to not be wrong there is exactly what be consider when they use the term half caste. You don't have to be obsessed with the colour of someone's skin that you need to make it OK that you (generic you) keep bringing it up. And whilst I've not got many experiences of South America, the Suarez incident leads me to believe that thoughts on the continent are similar to that along Spain.

Ironically also Italy from my parents perspective too, where they felt black Italians were treated as second class citizens.

[SirBalon]

4 hours ago, Danny said:

I think it's less shock and just more understanding that Spain (obviously not Brazil) has a poor record for racism and what you consider to not be wrong there is exactly what be consider when they use the term half caste. You don't have to be obsessed with the colour of someone's skin that you need to make it OK that you (generic you) keep bringing it up. And whilst I've not got many experiences of South America, the Suarez incident leads me to believe that thoughts on the continent are similar to that along Spain.

Ironically also Italy from my parents perspective too, where they felt black Italians were treated as second class citizens.

Don’t get me wrong mate... Just because I’m writing all this stuff, it doesn’t mean I condone it. Although is there anything to condone or condemn when something is just part of the vocal and vocab mechanics that has been used for hundreds of years in some cases.  When they say it, they’re not thinking racism or anyone in particular, they’re just speaking ready-made phrases that describe how you fee in any certain moment.

Just because I write it here so people that may not be in the know as to how things work elsewhere, doesn’t mean I agree with it and I’ve had serious discussions both in Spain and in Italy about these issues and there’s no way of getting to them because they always retort by saying it wasn’t a personal jab at someone when saying that. For example only last week while I was in Naples for Christmas, I was having a conversation about the present season in Serie ‘A’ with one of the boyfriends of my wife’s cousins. He’s an Inter fan and I don’t remember how we got onto the racism theme in football, but I told him about a situation Eto’o went through while playing for Barcelona... It was about a game they went away to play in Zaragoza and the monkey chanting got so bad that Eto’o threatened to walk off and between the ref, the Barcelona players AND EVEN the Zaragoza players, they convinced him to finish the game, which was the right thing to do and not be defeated by it.

Anyway... I told him about this because as an Inter fan he thinks it’s ok to sing that chant about the Vesuvius erupting and burning all Neapolitans alive, men, women and children... Yes that chant exists and northern clubs chant it ever time they play Napoli. I said to him that this was very offensive and it’s no wonder his girlfriends dad (my wife’s uncle) doesn’t like him. That’s why I went on to explain that racism incident...

(Understand one thing... That extremely offensive chant to the Neapolitans like another word they call them “Terrone” is something people born there makes them very angry. It’s a historical thing I won’t go into now.  But this kid is a Neapolitan himself and because he’s an Inter fan he accepts it with what I’m about to write further down as you will see)

But do you know what he said to me when I told him that with me thinking that will make him see the light as understand why it’s wrong?

He said...

“Nothing wrong with what the fans done in Zaragoza.  Spaniards are like us essentially and the passion gets the better of us in these things.  We do the same thing and I can use the Balotelli example as there have been hundreds of others.  Fans in other stadiums throughout Italy would do the monkey chants to him but because you’ve been born in London, you’ve had your brain washed with what you’re blood should be giving you.  It’s to put the player off, it isn’t because those people are racists... It’s because they detect he can change the game for the other team and they attack the best players in the most effective way possible so theyre put off the game”

I knew he was going to say that because I’ve had the same argument countless times in Spain and I told him I knew he’d say that and tried to make him understand that this goes beyond ethics or anything to do with sport.  They think you just don the get it even when you tell them you see the concept but that it’s morally wrong.

Trust me... Racism is there in many places throughout Europe but it’s very difficult to detect when someone’s is actually trying to be racist on purpose... Actually, let me rephrase that because those actions are indeed actions of racism.  What I meant to say is that, it’s difficult to detect if someone is actually a racist! It’s very difficult indeed! But this anecdote that I just told you has nothing to do with set phrases people are brought up with in relation to words or meaning s containing a racial vibe.  That’s a whole different ball game in even though education fulled by the government should start a politically correct campaign to eradicate it and change the vocabulary in set phrases like was done in Britain, they won’t do it because they just don’t see the problem because for them they’re not being racist and it’s just a moment of expression that has always been used.

[Smiley Culture]

It’s absolutely not a red. It’s a yellow at most, and even then, you see plenty of similar incidents that go without a card, but in this instance, it was a yellow, for me. 

But then I was reading that if the ref had given cards he wouldn’t have been able to refer it in his report, I don’t know how true that is, but that may have had some effect on the referee’s thought process. 

[HK85]

Nothing would surprise me with the Redmen. 

"We're not racist, we only hate Donny". Doesn't have to same ring to it. 

[Danny]

8 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Don’t get me wrong mate... Just because I’m writing all this stuff, it doesn’t mean I condone it. Although is there anything to condone or condemn when something is just part of the vocal and vocab mechanics that has been used for hundreds of years in some cases.  When they say it, they’re not thinking racism or anyone in particular, they’re just speaking ready-made phrases that describe how you fee in any certain moment.

Just because I write it here so people that may not be in the know as to how things work elsewhere, doesn’t mean I agree with it and I’ve had serious discussions both in Spain and in Italy about these issues and there’s no way of getting to them because they always retort by saying it wasn’t a personal jab at someone when saying that. For example only last week while I was in Naples for Christmas, I was having a conversation about the present season in Serie ‘A’ with one of the boyfriends of my wife’s cousins. He’s an Inter fan and I don’t remember how we got onto the racism theme in football, but I told him about a situation Eto’o went through while playing for Barcelona... It was about a game they went away to play in Zaragoza and the monkey chanting got so bad that Eto’o threatened to walk off and between the ref, the Barcelona players AND EVEN the Zaragoza players, they convinced him to finish the game, which was the right thing to do and not be defeated by it.

Anyway... I told him about this because as an Inter fan he thinks it’s ok to sing that chant about the Vesuvius erupting and burning all Neapolitans alive, men, women and children... Yes that chant exists and northern clubs chant it ever time they play Napoli. I said to him that this was very offensive and it’s no wonder his girlfriends dad (my wife’s uncle) doesn’t like him. That’s why I went on to explain that racism incident...

(Understand one thing... That extremely offensive chant to the Neapolitans like another word they call them “Terrone” is something people born there makes them very angry. It’s a historical thing I won’t go into now.  But this kid is a Neapolitan himself and because he’s an Inter fan he accepts it with what I’m about to write further down as you will see)

But do you know what he said to me when I told him that with me thinking that will make him see the light as understand why it’s wrong?

He said...

“Nothing wrong with what the fans done in Zaragoza.  Spaniards are like us essentially and the passion gets the better of us in these things.  We do the same thing and I can use the Balotelli example as there have been hundreds of others.  Fans in other stadiums throughout Italy would do the monkey chants to him but because you’ve been born in London, you’ve had your brain washed with what you’re blood should be giving you.  It’s to put the player off, it isn’t because those people are racists... It’s because they detect he can change the game for the other team and they attack the best players in the most effective way possible so theyre put off the game”

I knew he was going to say that because I’ve had the same argument countless times in Spain and I told him I knew he’d say that and tried to make him understand that this goes beyond ethics or anything to do with sport.  They think you just don the get it even when you tell them you see the concept but that it’s morally wrong.

Trust me... Racism is there in many places throughout Europe but it’s very difficult to detect when someone’s is actually trying to be racist on purpose... Actually, let me rephrase that because those actions are indeed actions of racism.  What I meant to say is that, it’s difficult to detect if someone is actually a racist! It’s very difficult indeed! But this anecdote that I just told you has nothing to do with set phrases people are brought up with in relation to words or meaning s containing a racial vibe.  That’s a whole different ball game in even though education fulled by the government should start a politically correct campaign to eradicate it and change the vocabulary in set phrases like was done in Britain, they won’t do it because they just don’t see the problem because for them they’re not being racist and it’s just a moment of expression that has always been used.

Sounds like a continental version of "I'm not racist but..."

[SirBalon]

12 minutes ago, Danny said:

Sounds like a continental version of "I'm not racist but..."

No it’s not mate...

Was a person that used to sing “ba ba Black sheep” or say “blackboard”  or “Paddy Wagon” or “Hooligan” or “Paki” a racist?...

I could go on... How many words and phrases have been deleted from the English vocabulary and some even continue to exist with dodgy origins nobody thinks about when they’re saying them? Like for example Gyp or Eskimo.

That doesn’t make a racist... I sang “ba ba Black sheep” at school because it was a nursery rhyme back in the day but over a decade later it was deleted because it’s origins were racially disrespectful.  What we have here is that the UK has done a lot of work over the years (this is where political correctness has been positive) to eradicate these things that may place a seed in young people’s minds when in relation to racial differences.

Was I a racist when signing that at school as a 6 year old?

Was my teacher who was an educated adult a racist for teaching us to sing it?

NO!

You haven’t read and understood what I wrote mate or maybe I didn’t explain it well.

[HK85]

16 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Was I a racist when signing that at school as a 6 year old?

Was my teacher who was an educated adult a racist for teaching us to sing it?

 

Yes. 

Yes. 

[Spike]

8 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Don’t get me wrong mate... Just because I’m writing all this stuff, it doesn’t mean I condone it. Although is there anything to condone or condemn when something is just part of the vocal and vocab mechanics that has been used for hundreds of years in some cases.  When they say it, they’re not thinking racism or anyone in particular, they’re just speaking ready-made phrases that describe how you fee in any certain moment.

Just because I write it here so people that may not be in the know as to how things work elsewhere, doesn’t mean I agree with it and I’ve had serious discussions both in Spain and in Italy about these issues and there’s no way of getting to them because they always retort by saying it wasn’t a personal jab at someone when saying that. For example only last week while I was in Naples for Christmas, I was having a conversation about the present season in Serie ‘A’ with one of the boyfriends of my wife’s cousins. He’s an Inter fan and I don’t remember how we got onto the racism theme in football, but I told him about a situation Eto’o went through while playing for Barcelona... It was about a game they went away to play in Zaragoza and the monkey chanting got so bad that Eto’o threatened to walk off and between the ref, the Barcelona players AND EVEN the Zaragoza players, they convinced him to finish the game, which was the right thing to do and not be defeated by it.

Anyway... I told him about this because as an Inter fan he thinks it’s ok to sing that chant about the Vesuvius erupting and burning all Neapolitans alive, men, women and children... Yes that chant exists and northern clubs chant it ever time they play Napoli. I said to him that this was very offensive and it’s no wonder his girlfriends dad (my wife’s uncle) doesn’t like him. That’s why I went on to explain that racism incident...

(Understand one thing... That extremely offensive chant to the Neapolitans like another word they call them “Terrone” is something people born there makes them very angry. It’s a historical thing I won’t go into now.  But this kid is a Neapolitan himself and because he’s an Inter fan he accepts it with what I’m about to write further down as you will see)

But do you know what he said to me when I told him that with me thinking that will make him see the light as understand why it’s wrong?

He said...

“Nothing wrong with what the fans done in Zaragoza.  Spaniards are like us essentially and the passion gets the better of us in these things.  We do the same thing and I can use the Balotelli example as there have been hundreds of others.  Fans in other stadiums throughout Italy would do the monkey chants to him but because you’ve been born in London, you’ve had your brain washed with what you’re blood should be giving you.  It’s to put the player off, it isn’t because those people are racists... It’s because they detect he can change the game for the other team and they attack the best players in the most effective way possible so theyre put off the game”

I knew he was going to say that because I’ve had the same argument countless times in Spain and I told him I knew he’d say that and tried to make him understand that this goes beyond ethics or anything to do with sport.  They think you just don the get it even when you tell them you see the concept but that it’s morally wrong.

Trust me... Racism is there in many places throughout Europe but it’s very difficult to detect when someone’s is actually trying to be racist on purpose... Actually, let me rephrase that because those actions are indeed actions of racism.  What I meant to say is that, it’s difficult to detect if someone is actually a racist! It’s very difficult indeed! But this anecdote that I just told you has nothing to do with set phrases people are brought up with in relation to words or meaning s containing a racial vibe.  That’s a whole different ball game in even though education fulled by the government should start a politically correct campaign to eradicate it and change the vocabulary in set phrases like was done in Britain, they won’t do it because they just don’t see the problem because for them they’re not being racist and it’s just a moment of expression that has always been used.

To make matters more complicated you'll liable to hear North Italians say 'I love niggers but hate Terrone' (I've heard people say this, referring to Italian-Americans as 'primarily southern niggers' [that is why they are an embarrassment to Americans and Italians], even the Wikipedia page mentions this). The implication to me that they dislike both but by comparison like black people more than 'terrone'. I've even heard the term 'Ethiopian' thrown around for Southern Italians.

[SirBalon]

17 minutes ago, HK85 said:

Yes. 

Yes. 

Is that serious or a joke because if it’s a joke, the emoticon is missing mate.

How can either be a racist?  A racist has a superiority complex according and in relation to race/colour.  A predjudice!  If it indeed isn’t a joke, then you need to be re-educated mate and I hope you don’t take that the wrong way because I’m saying this in the same blanket manner you answered my post.

[Spike]

Just now, SirBalon said:

Is that serious or a joke because if it’s a joke, the emoticon is missing mate.

How can either be a racist?  A racist has a superiority complex according and in relation to race/colour.  A predjudice!  If it indeed isn’t a joke, then you need to be re-educated mate and I hope you don’t take that the wrong way because I’m saying this in the same blanket manner you answers my post.

I sang 'ba ba black sheep' at school and I'm probably about 15 years younger than you. I sang it next to my Indigenous classmates (they identify as 'black fellas') and I honestly thought it was a about a rare/magical sheep that gave black wool or I thought that is where black clothes came from. I still don't see the racial connotations with it, really. Unless it has some hidden history that I'm unaware of, but even then it's a nursery rhyme so it's it probably has half-a-dozen 'origin stories' that all contradict eachother.

[Danny]

23 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

No it’s not mate...

Was a person that used to sing “ba ba Black sheep” or say “blackboard”  or “Paddy Wagon” or “Hooligan” or “Paki” a racist?...

I could go on... How many words and phrases have been deleted from the English vocabulary and some even continue to exist with dodgy origins nobody thinks about when they’re saying them? Like for example Gyp or Eskimo.

That doesn’t make a racist... I sang “ba ba Black sheep” at school because it was a nursery rhyme back in the day but over a decade later it was deleted because it’s origins were racially disrespectful.  What we have here is that the UK has done a lot of work over the years (this is where political correctness has been positive) to eradicate these things that may place a seed in young people’s minds when in relation to racial differences.

Was I a racist when signing that at school as a 6 year old?

Was my teacher who was an educated adult a racist for teaching us to sing it?

NO!

You haven’t read and understood what I wrote mate or maybe I didn’t explain it well.

I mean you wrote down he was defending monkey chants so it's a little bit more than just ba ba black sheep ain't it mate

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Spike said:

To make matters more complicated you'll liable to hear North Italians say 'I love niggers but hate Terrone' (I've heard people say this, referring to Italian-Americans as 'primarily southern niggers' [that is why they are an embarrassment to Americans and Italians], even the Wikipedia page mentions this). The implication to me that they dislike both but by comparison like black people more than 'terrone'. I've even heard the term 'Ethiopian' thrown around for Southern Italians.

Two months ago a I was in my local park (Highbury Fields) walking with my 17 month old son... My wife and I named him Gennaro in respect of the patron saint of Naples.  It’s a very Neapolitan name although the name is also used in other parts of Italy and even in Galicia (one of my uncles has this name) but it’s predominant massively in Naples.

Anyway...

He decided to play his favourite game which is to run away from me and because there are quite a number of cyclists that go down that route and they pelt around quickly, I started to call him obviously by his name; “Gennaro! Gennaro! Gennaroooo!”

At that point a tall man is walking past while I’m calling out to my son (I could see he was of Italian origin, especially from the north and I won’t say why) when he looks at me, then to my son and back at me where he then does the grunting sound of a pig and spits on the floor while muttering “Terrone di merda... Maiale!”

I can tell you that in my real life it takes a lot to rile me but at that moment I almost lost it had it not been for my son suddenly stopping running and reaching out to hold that man’s hand... The man turned his face away from my son and spat on the floor while continuing to walk on.  It was the action of my son that educated ME mate.  His innocence showed me what I should do which is to ignore, be nice and carry on because it doesn’t matter to me.  My son is the most precious thing in the world to me and I will do my best to educate him the right way to respect everyone.  I know I will make mistakes along the way, but this anecdote contains a lot more than just the story I just told.

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Danny said:

I mean you wrote down he was defending monkey chants so it's a little bit more than just ba ba black sheep ain't it mate

He defended the monkey chants mate because he’s ignorant.  I don’t think and didn’t detect racism!  He was more intent on winning an argument than thinking about what he was saying and the actions he was referring to.  I’ve encountered this hundreds of times throughout my life.

[LFCMadLad]

All this because Bobby called some blue shite wanker a son of a whore 

[Spike]

6 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Two months ago a I was in my local park (Highbury Fields) walking with my 17 month old son... My wife and I named him Gennaro in respect of the patron saint of Naples.  It’s a very Neapolitan name although the name is also used in other parts of Italy and even in Galicia (one of my uncles has this name) but it’s predominant massively in Naples.

Anyway...

He decided to play his favourite game which is to run away from me and because there are quite a number of cyclists that go down that route and they pelt around quickly, I started to call him obviously by his name; “Gennaro! Gennaro! Gennaroooo!”

At that point a tall man is walking past while I’m calling out to my son (I could see he was of Italian origin, especially from the north and I won’t say why) when he looks at me, then to my son and back at me where he then does the grunting sound of a pig and spits on the floor while muttering “Terrone di merda... Maiale!”

I can tell you that in my real life it takes a lot to rile me but at that moment I almost lost it had it not been for my son suddenly stopping running and reaching out to hold that man’s hand... The man turned his face away from my son and spat on the floor while continuing to walk on.  It was the action of my son that educated ME mate.  His innocence showed me what I should do which is to ignore, be nice and carry on because it doesn’t matter to me.  My son is the most precious thing in the world to me and I will do my best to educate him the right way to respect everyone.  I know I will make mistakes along the way, but this anecdote contains a lot more than just the story I just told.

It would have been a beautiful moment of vindication if you were to assault him in an array of Galego. Aye, the insanity of some people, to refer to an innocent child that has no concept of terrone, race, or ethnic/cultural identity as a pig.

[HK85]

20 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Is that serious or a joke because if it’s a joke, the emoticon is missing mate.

How can either be a racist?  A racist has a superiority complex according and in relation to race/colour.  A predjudice!  If it indeed isn’t a joke, then you need to be re-educated mate and I hope you don’t take that the wrong way because I’m saying this in the same blanket manner you answered my post.

A 6 year old racist, you were started young. 

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, HK85 said:

A 6 year old racist, you were started young. 

Nearly as young as that toddler that was taken to a match by his Everton supporting dad for a fight.