Chelsea Set to Deal With Anti-Semitic Fans

[Dave]

Chelsea are set to deal with anti-Semitic fans by sending them on educational courses.

The move comes as part of an initiative by Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich - who himself is Jewish - as he wishes to eradicate anti-Semitism from the club's fan base.

Chelsea chairman Bruce Buck explained the process in an interview with The Sun, in which he outlined the need to make those supporters more informed with their world views as opposed to simply banning them.

"If you just ban people, you will never change their behaviour," said Buck.

"This policy gives them the chance to realise what they have done, to make them want to behave better.

"In the past, we would take them from the crowd and ban them, for up to three years."

Chelsea will give the supporters the chance to attend the educational courses, or risk losing their season tickets at Stamford Bridge.

[SirBalon]

Very good initiative to be honest because a lack of awareness, education and a bad upbringing (all leading to ignorance) are some of the underlying issues that cause these problems to manifest themselves.

It's the same as prison... Unless part of the punishment doesn't also include rehabilitation and to educate those that have committed crimes, then it all just goes round in circles and what's for sure, we're not doing anything whatsoever to eradicate it.

[Storts]

Never going to work. They will not eradicate anti-Semitism from that football club for a very long time. If Abramovich's tenure didn't change attitudes then nothing will.

[SirBalon]

57 minutes ago, Storts said:

Never going to work. They will not eradicate anti-Semitism from that football club for a very long time. If Abramovich's tenure didn't change attitudes then nothing will.

But you've got to admit that education is the best method of attempting this and not just a ban to leave those ignoramuses just to continue their propaganda elsewhere. 

[Danny]

Yeah I cannot see this going down well, it may work on younger fans brought up on an unhealthy dose of white supremacy but the core group of 40+ year old nazis won't change.

And if they do it won't be because of a PowerPoint presentation on why the Holocaust was actually a bad event (or if you're really deranged, actually existed).

[carefreeluke]

2 hours ago, Storts said:

Never going to work. They will not eradicate anti-Semitism from that football club for a very long time. If Abramovich's tenure didn't change attitudes then nothing will.

In fairness I don't think the majority of match going Chelsea fans are too glued up on Abramovich's background and personal life. So the correlation there isn't that significant. This is in part because his life (if possible) is kept out of the spotlight. 

The anti-Semitic stuff is a problem for the Chelsea fanbase though but I think there's already been a reduction in it and there will continue to be in the future if the club continues with measures like this. Part of the problem is also generational, younger fans will have heard the songs from the older fans and perhaps even joined in without being fully aware of what they were doing. Chelsea supporters can be more guilty of this sort of stuff compared to other clubs but I think it's something that is going to change with similar things in recent years getting more serious punishment and more media coverage and also as society changes and new generations of match going fans emerge. The Chelsea supporters generation of the late 70s and 80s still hold an influence over the current fanbase and I feel in part this is where most of this stuff stems from.

[LFCMike]

A jolly to Krakow, that'll teach 'em.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Be a Nazi at Chelsea & win a free trip! Not like these aren’t the type of cunts to do Nazi salutes while at Auschwitz... oh wait they’re absolutely are the type to do that. 

[Cicero]

I think those that have these antisemitic views in today's society don't deserve a second chance nor the wasted investment to educate them. If anything, as Danny mentioned, there should be an age limit. If you are 40-50 and still have these backward views, lifetime ban. 

[Spike]

Is there even a significant Jewish population in England or even Europe anymore?

[Bluewolf]

4 hours ago, LFCMike said:

A jolly to Krakow, that'll teach 'em.

 

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Be a Nazi at Chelsea & win a free trip! Not like these aren’t the type of cunts to do Nazi salutes while at Auschwitz... oh wait they’re absolutely are the type to do that. 

Been there.... Auschwitz was a very sobering experience

Thankfully when I went it was not part of some rehabilitation scheme... As for the scheme itself I will agree with @SirBalon, better to have something in place that promotes awareness than doing nothing at all.. In my experience though you will find that trying to undo years of that kind of mentality will sadly be a long time coming.. There would be a better chance of them passing away before you could shift that type of thinking.. Even if you could pin them down they will have sons, daughters and maybe even grand kids that will be following the same examples they set.. 

Can't fault them for trying though.. 

[The Artful Dodger]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

Is there even a significant Jewish population in England or even Europe anymore?

About  300k, which puts it about 5th in terms of largest Jewish population in the world. Mainly centred on London, it's a small but well established community which has contributed greatly to British life. Most other larger cities will have a small Jewish population too, here in Liverpool they gave us the stunning Princes Road Synagouge and it's a shame that the population declined so much.

I think Europe's attempt to annihilate Jewish people in their entirety probably left many feeling like Israel is the only place to be totally safe, sadly.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Bluewolf said:

Been there.... Auschwitz was a very sobering experience

I've heard it's a very powerful place to go in a very macabre sense... like you can feel the death and despair still, even after all of these years. One day I want to make a trip out there so I can see first hand part of how evil humans are capable of being.

But having said that, you're not someone who thinks that all of the Jews are subhuman scum that need to be put down or a Holocaust denier. I think a mandatory trip for these hateful morons is wasted on them - they'll either be in awe at the monument of cruelty, death, and misery... but not in a normal sense, but rather impressed with what the Nazis were doing at Auschwitz & other camps. Remember, a lot of these people are people who think the Holocaust was a good thing. Or they'll claim the entire thing is a fabrication, as Holocaust deniers generally do. And they'll say it's proof of some grand Jewish conspiracy to get the world to believe they're always victims and control us... because those people are mental.

It's a novel idea. But it's not a great idea because of the people we're talking about "rehabilitating." I don't think decades of bullshit is going to be undone for most neo-Nazis and white supremacists by a trip to Auschwitz. It's wasted on them, most of them won't get the point - even if some of them do.

And as @Storts said, if you're an anti-Semitic modern day Chelsea fan and you appreciate what Roman Abramovich has done for your club... but you still hate all Jews, I don't think a trip to Auschwitz will cure you of your anti-Semitism.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Spike said:

Is there even a significant Jewish population in England or even Europe anymore?

There's about 1.5m Jewish people in Europe. There were 9.5m in 1939. Personally, I don't blame Jews for finding Europe a hostile place given Europe's history of discriminating against Jews, and for around 400 years Jews were effectively run out of England and those who remained practiced their faith in secrecy until the mid-1600s.

Regardless of how big or small a minority group they are, I don't think that means that anti-Semitism shouldn't be taken very seriously. There's too many examples in history of what humans will do to each other if they can target a minority group as a scapegoat and dehumanise them.

[Bluewolf]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I've heard it's a very powerful place to go in a very macabre sense... like you can feel the death and despair still, even after all of these years. One day I want to make a trip out there so I can see first hand part of how evil humans are capable of being.

But having said that, you're not someone who thinks that all of the Jews are subhuman scum that need to be put down or a Holocaust denier. I think a mandatory trip for these hateful morons is wasted on them - they'll either be in awe at the monument of cruelty, death, and misery... but not in a normal sense, but rather impressed with what the Nazis were doing at Auschwitz & other camps. Remember, a lot of these people are people who think the Holocaust was a good thing. Or they'll claim the entire thing is a fabrication, as Holocaust deniers generally do. And they'll say it's proof of some grand Jewish conspiracy to get the world to believe they're always victims and control us... because those people are mental.

It's a novel idea. But it's not a great idea because of the people we're talking about "rehabilitating." I don't think decades of bullshit is going to be undone for most neo-Nazis and white supremacists by a trip to Auschwitz. It's wasted on them, most of them won't get the point - even if some of them do.

And as @Storts said, if you're an anti-Semitic modern day Chelsea fan and you appreciate what Roman Abramovich has done for your club... but you still hate all Jews, I don't think a trip to Auschwitz will cure you of your anti-Semitism.

That pretty much sums it up mate.. When you see the pictures and read some of the stuff they have it stays with you... All around are the original fences, barracks, bullet ridden walls where people were shot and you even get to see some of the torture cubicles they used to use on people and the poor sleeping conditions they had to endure... There is a bit at the end where you go and they have these huge windows and they are sectioned off with glass panels and behind them are some of the original belongings, suitcases, cloths, tins for carrying water and food etc and there are literally hundreds of them all there piled deep and high.. and that was just a small fraction of what they actually found... there are even pictures of people getting shot, tortured and kids being experimented on.. The gas chambers and everything.. It really is fucking awful what we do to each other and shows the very worst side of human nature..

It was not somewhere we had planned to go as we had scheduled a mountain ride to the lakes but missed the ride and it was going to be another 3 hours before they returned for the next pick up so a few phone calls were made and someone suggested going there... Not sure what I was expecting and find it hard to advise when you should go ie: the beginning of your trip or the end, It might be fair to say it will stick with you regardless.. I will always remember my stay there as being a really nice time overall and that came near the end before returning home and it sticks with you for all the wrong reasons.. It actually makes you feel angry at seeing some of this stuff that went on... 

Another strange thing for me was hearing the sound of young children riding around on little bikes and playing in such a place.. They were the caretakers children I believe just on the grounds... 

[SirBalon]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I've heard it's a very powerful place to go in a very macabre sense... like you can feel the death and despair still, even after all of these years. One day I want to make a trip out there so I can see first hand part of how evil humans are capable of being.

But having said that, you're not someone who thinks that all of the Jews are subhuman scum that need to be put down or a Holocaust denier. I think a mandatory trip for these hateful morons is wasted on them - they'll either be in awe at the monument of cruelty, death, and misery... but not in a normal sense, but rather impressed with what the Nazis were doing at Auschwitz & other camps. Remember, a lot of these people are people who think the Holocaust was a good thing. Or they'll claim the entire thing is a fabrication, as Holocaust deniers generally do. And they'll say it's proof of some grand Jewish conspiracy to get the world to believe they're always victims and control us... because those people are mental.

It's a novel idea. But it's not a great idea because of the people we're talking about "rehabilitating." I don't think decades of bullshit is going to be undone for most neo-Nazis and white supremacists by a trip to Auschwitz. It's wasted on them, most of them won't get the point - even if some of them do.

And as @Storts said, if you're an anti-Semitic modern day Chelsea fan and you appreciate what Roman Abramovich has done for your club... but you still hate all Jews, I don't think a trip to Auschwitz will cure you of your anti-Semitism.

I know this is going to sound controversial and possibly leaving people with their mouths open... But how about threatening those that are anti-Semites with being gassed and putting them in a room all closed in where even the least claustrophobic would start panicking and then open non gas taps so as to hear the hissing...

How about that for a fix and tell them they are being put in there individually for being Chelsea fans or in any other case something they're affiliates to.

Fuck them! 

[Cicero]

Father in law went there in the 80's when he was stationed. Says you can still smell the smoke in the air.

[Spike]

18 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

There's about 1.5m Jewish people in Europe. There were 9.5m in 1939. Personally, I don't blame Jews for finding Europe a hostile place given Europe's history of discriminating against Jews, and for around 400 years Jews were effectively run out of England and those who remained practiced their faith in secrecy until the mid-1600s.

Regardless of how big or small a minority group they are, I don't think that means that anti-Semitism shouldn't be taken very seriously. There's too many examples in history of what humans will do to each other if they can target a minority group as a scapegoat and dehumanise them.

It's a vicious cycle. Jews remove themselves from the culture and society to get away from persecution and society at large persecutes them for being insular! 

[SirBalon]

19 minutes ago, Spike said:

It's a vicious cycle. Jews remove themselves from the culture and society to get away from persecution and society at large persecutes them for being insular! 

Mate, there are many ways to read insular and society can't dictate at religious faith because faith itself where a belief in a higher order means you abide by laws, laws you have faith in, laws that mean more than you and anyone else.

Remember, what's insular is in the eye of the beholder my friend.  I see many US citizens (not all) as insular people with a lack of respect for the rest of the world and yet the general view isn't one of a similar vein when it comes to Judaism or any other creed one should bring to the fore in such an argument.

[Dr. Gonzo]

15 minutes ago, Spike said:

It's a vicious cycle. Jews remove themselves from the culture and society to get away from persecution and society at large persecutes them for being insular! 

I'm not really sure how true that is. I've met lots of Jews in the US, they don't seem insular at all. And I've got one (lol) Jewish friend from when I was a kid who lived on my street growing up. He was literally the exact same as the rest of us, his parents were (and still are) good friends with my parents. I don't think they're removed from culture and society either.

Maybe you're referring to pre-1939 Jews? Like the ones in Poland were insular, I've heard, thus easy to scapegoat and once the Nazis invaded, easy to ignore the ghettos and concentration camps they were sent to.

I think (but I'm not 100% sure), a lot of Jewish stereotypes and anti-Semitism is derived from the middle ages, when Jews were the only ones who could lend money because of Christian usury laws. Nobody likes paying interest fees, thus they got a reputation for being cold & heartless, money obsessed fucks. Like Shylock from the Merchant of Venice, who's a caricature of that money-grubbing Jew stereotype from that time period.  

[Spike]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

Mate, there are many ways to read insular and society can't dictate at religious faith because faith itself where a belief in a higher order means you bide by laws, laws you have faith in, laws that mean more than you and anyone else.

Remember, what's insular is in the eye of the beholder my friend.  I see many US citizens (not all) as insular people with a lack of respect for the rest of the world and yet the general view isn't one of a similar vein when it comes to Judaism or any other creed one should bring to the fore in such an argument.

I'm just going by what I know from historical texts. In various caste, class, religious, et al. hierarchical systems there is a very real pattern for Jewish persecution. A foreign religion, exclusive to converts, separate language and cultural practices. There are instances of Jews being banned from regular trades (smithing, carpentry, farming) so they had to turn to alternative trades like usury. Which you know, is a very controversial practice in on itself. So you have this exclusive group of minorities, practising a controversial trade, all whilst in a foreign land, it will always add up to some sort of conflict.

There are parallels in other cultures as well. In Japan there is a continual class struggle for those descendant of 'burakamin'. Like Jews were forced into particular trades that were unsavoury, thus creating more derision. This isn't an odd thing, nor is it an exclusive phenomenon.

[Spike]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'm not really sure how true that is. I've met lots of Jews in the US, they don't seem insular at all. And I've got one (lol) Jewish friend from when I was a kid who lived on my street growing up. He was literally the exact same as the rest of us, his parents were (and still are) good friends with my parents. I don't think they're removed from culture and society either.

Maybe you're referring to pre-1939 Jews? Like the ones in Poland were insular, I've heard, thus easy to scapegoat and once the Nazis invaded, easy to ignore the ghettos and concentration camps they were sent to.

I think (but I'm not 100% sure), a lot of Jewish stereotypes and anti-Semitism is derived from the middle ages, when Jews were the only ones who could lend money because of Christian usury laws. Nobody likes paying interest fees, thus they got a reputation for being cold & heartless, money obsessed fucks. Like Shylock from the Merchant of Venice, who's a caricature of that money-grubbing Jew stereotype from that time period.  

Insular in the idea that people don't necessarily just 'join' a synagogue, like one is welcomed in [most] churches. The orthodox Jews of New York in particular are notorious for being a very closed circuit. With allegations of rabbi control of the communities, with rampant sexual abuse, children being separated from parents, and people being exiled from the community. Most non-secular Jews you'll find are more-or-less the same as any other ethnic group in America. Yes, they tend to hang with those that are similar but that applies to most people. I'm sure if there were a local Australian club, I would be a member and I'd know most Australians in the area but that doesn't mean I exclude myself from other groups. 

There are extremities of course, I know Greeks in Chicago tend to marry Greeks only, that is just a part of their community and similar practices would apply to Jews and other groups.

[Spike]

Also most people tend to 'ghettoise' themselves, which is a problem for assimilation for any group and one reason large-scale immigration is usually quite clumsy. People don't want to change to fit into another culture, and will look for ways to stay separate, and most of the time that involves living in ghettos of the same group. 

I always think that is a sure fire method to easy prosecution. I can imagine if Australians started immigrating en masse to America that cultural zeitgeist of Australian-American relations would disintegrate very quickly! 

[SirBalon]

33 minutes ago, Spike said:

Also most people tend to 'ghettoise' themselves, which is a problem for assimilation for any group and one reason large-scale immigration is usually quite clumsy. People don't want to change to fit into another culture, and will look for ways to stay separate, and most of the time that involves living in ghettos of the same group. 

I always think that is a sure fire method to easy prosecution. I can imagine if Australians started immigrating en masse to America that cultural zeitgeist of Australian-American relations would disintegrate very quickly! 

People don't tend to assimilate and integrate through fear of betraying their values and losing the culture they left at home...  We can't forget that most if not all cultures are proud folk and have pride in the traditions their forefathers all lived within.  It's a simple phenomenon to understand but in most cases as the generations are born into their new environment, they learn to appreciate and comprehend that one can maintain values, customs and traditions and also feel part of what surrounds them.  But this also needs and requires understanding comprehension and sensitivity from the natives.

[True Blue]

This wouldn't solve much, basically nothing would change terrible idea. Also i highly doubt Chelsea fans are the only in the land that have anti-semitic fans or racist fans.