Firmino's Lack of Goals

[Storts]

Any Liverpool fans worried about Firminos lack of goals?

I said it last year I think it’s still a problem for Liverpool that they don’t have that out and out striker, such as Kane or Aguero. How are his performances generally?  

[...Dan]

He's not the one expected to get the goals, is he? He does a job for the team and allows Salah (7) and Mané (6) to get the goals. I'd say any goals he gets are a bonus. Aguero and Kane have 8 and 7...I don't think there's much to worry about comparing Liverpool's attack to those of other sides.

[Mel81x+]

More of a playmaker than an actual striker if you ask me. Its an odd position he plays because you'd imagine him scoring more but he actually links the play from midfield and provides players with the opportunities to score, Salah and Mane being those two. What goes unnoticed is how much ground he actually tracks when we're defending as well because he drops unusually deep to afford defensive play outlets as well. 

[Cicero]

We could actually use a striker like Firmino in our set up 

[Storts]

1 hour ago, Mel81x said:

More of a playmaker than an actual striker if you ask me. Its an odd position he plays because you'd imagine him scoring more but he actually links the play from midfield and provides players with the opportunities to score, Salah and Mane being those two. What goes unnoticed is how much ground he actually tracks when we're defending as well because he drops unusually deep to afford defensive play outlets as well. 

Yeah - I think he's a really good player, and in a lot of games he's perfect for the way you play with his work rate and ability to drop in all over the front line. However I feel that in certain games the lack of a focal point can be a hindrance and when Firmino doesn't score enough you are asking so much of the other two. Salah has struggled in big games this season already - thankfully Mane has picked up the slack but I'm just really wondering thoughts about him and whether you should go all out for a proper traditional forward and let Firmino drop into the proposed Fekir position.

[CaaC (John)+]

Phone Jose and ask him you can have Firmino and you send us Lukaku.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Storts said:

Yeah - I think he's a really good player, and in a lot of games he's perfect for the way you play with his work rate and ability to drop in all over the front line. However I feel that in certain games the lack of a focal point can be a hindrance and when Firmino doesn't score enough you are asking so much of the other two. Salah has struggled in big games this season already - thankfully Mane has picked up the slack but I'm just really wondering thoughts about him and whether you should go all out for a proper traditional forward and let Firmino drop into the proposed Fekir position.

Yeah - I think he's still a very important player for us. But you're also right, his lack of goals this season has to be a concern. I think despite his goal return last season, he's never really an out and out goalscorer like you say.

I think he's probably the most important player to our setup, so this season with him not scoring as much and not being as effective generally (I think the whole front 3 has generally been less effective this season, despite Mane's good form - but Mane is definitely looking the best of the front 3 on current form), it wouldn't hurt dropping him back into midfield into what is more his natural position. I'm not sure Klopp will do that because I think he likes having a very well rounded striker in the front 3.

I'm also not sure if our midfield is the bigger problem or the front 3's form is the bigger problem. The midfield just has so much less energy, generally speaking, than we had last season. Part of it seems like we're playing more conservatively early on and just trying to grind out good results, as last season (around March or so) the side had a very poor month where the squad looked absolutely fucking spent and there's a theory among some of our fans that Klopp's got the side set up to conserve energy. No idea if that's true or if we're just more conservative because last season not being very conservative fucked us over a bit. I'm more inclined to believe in what I see with my eyes, which is the latter, than have any wild speculation as to what the fuck we'll be up too later in the season. There's just too many variables and I think it's just wishful thinking.

And as you know, I'm a pessimist so wishful thinking isn't really my strong suit 

It's a bit weird right now because there's definitely areas we've improved from last season that I'm very happy about. And there's definitely cause for concern about certain aspects about how we've played this season. We look better and more solid and difficult to beat in the league - but we're less potent and terrifying to face, particularly away from home in Europe where we've quite frankly been abysmal. As a result, I'm left thinking we've improved a bit compared to last season (because I think the league is the best barometer for how well we're doing) but it's not like all is rosey.

Honestly, it's a bit shit for both Spurs and us - having to operate as actual football clubs making steady improvement but also leaving the fans thinking "wish we could just be a bit better" while Manchester City gets to fart about always getting to make massive improvements year after year because they are financially doped up cunts. I think Spurs have been really impressive this season and if they'd been in a position to bring in depth to strengthen that already very strong squad they'd be up there as favourites to win the league... if Citeh weren't around. And regardless of how much we improve, I feel like we're both just left hoping that Citeh fuck up so we can have our chance to do what fans of our clubs have been waiting for far too long to see (our respective clubs winning the league).

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, CaaC - John said:

Phone Jose and ask him you can have Firmino and you send us Laluka.   

Please don't even joke about that. I would be so annoyed if we replaced Firmino with a lump like Lukaku.

[CaaC (John)+]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

Please don't even joke about that. I would be so annoyed if we replaced Firmino with a lump like Lukaku.

I spelt the guys name wrong and had to edit and correct it lol.

[Dr. Gonzo]

12 minutes ago, CaaC - John said:

I spelt the guys name wrong and had to edit and correct it lol.

I thought you did it on purpose just to spite him for his poor form this season 

[CaaC (John)+]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I thought you did it on purpose just to spite him for his poor form this season 

When Fellaini first joined United fucked if I could remember how to spell his name so I would call him The Tree or the bloody Mop!! Now he has a haircut I can remember how to spell his name, fucking weird. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, CaaC - John said:

When Fellaini first joined United fucked if I could remember how to spell his name so I would call him The Tree or the bloody Mop!! Now he has a haircut I can remember how to spell his name, fucking weird. 

I can't call him Sideshow Bob anymore now that he's had his hair cut. Truly sad times.

[Guest]

I divide offensive players in 2 ways: Supportive and goalscorers.

If you have too many supportive players, you will never score. Not all 9's are goalscorers. Firmino and Benzema are 2 examples. They are both excellent but neither have a big goalscoring instinct. That's been the issue with Real Madrid this season, after losing Ronaldo, they lost 40 of their goals. Now they have too many supportive players who will score every so often but they are not the one you will rely to put the ball at the back of the net.

In Liverpool's case, I haven't seen them this season but based on the last year, Salah and Mane are the goalscorers, with Firmino, Milner and Robertson being supportive players. That's not a reason to worry if you ask me, there is a good balance. 2 consistent goalscorers are the minimum I feel.

[Storts]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah - I think he's still a very important player for us. But you're also right, his lack of goals this season has to be a concern. I think despite his goal return last season, he's never really an out and out goalscorer like you say.

I think he's probably the most important player to our setup, so this season with him not scoring as much and not being as effective generally (I think the whole front 3 has generally been less effective this season, despite Mane's good form - but Mane is definitely looking the best of the front 3 on current form), it wouldn't hurt dropping him back into midfield into what is more his natural position. I'm not sure Klopp will do that because I think he likes having a very well rounded striker in the front 3.

I'm also not sure if our midfield is the bigger problem or the front 3's form is the bigger problem. The midfield just has so much less energy, generally speaking, than we had last season. Part of it seems like we're playing more conservatively early on and just trying to grind out good results, as last season (around March or so) the side had a very poor month where the squad looked absolutely fucking spent and there's a theory among some of our fans that Klopp's got the side set up to conserve energy. No idea if that's true or if we're just more conservative because last season not being very conservative fucked us over a bit. I'm more inclined to believe in what I see with my eyes, which is the latter, than have any wild speculation as to what the fuck we'll be up too later in the season. There's just too many variables and I think it's just wishful thinking.

And as you know, I'm a pessimist so wishful thinking isn't really my strong suit 

It's a bit weird right now because there's definitely areas we've improved from last season that I'm very happy about. And there's definitely cause for concern about certain aspects about how we've played this season. We look better and more solid and difficult to beat in the league - but we're less potent and terrifying to face, particularly away from home in Europe where we've quite frankly been abysmal. As a result, I'm left thinking we've improved a bit compared to last season (because I think the league is the best barometer for how well we're doing) but it's not like all is rosey.

Honestly, it's a bit shit for both Spurs and us - having to operate as actual football clubs making steady improvement but also leaving the fans thinking "wish we could just be a bit better" while Manchester City gets to fart about always getting to make massive improvements year after year because they are financially doped up cunts. I think Spurs have been really impressive this season and if they'd been in a position to bring in depth to strengthen that already very strong squad they'd be up there as favourites to win the league... if Citeh weren't around. And regardless of how much we improve, I feel like we're both just left hoping that Citeh fuck up so we can have our chance to do what fans of our clubs have been waiting for far too long to see (our respective clubs winning the league).

What a great post.

I think you're right - last season's goal tally was clearly at the top end of what he's capable of and I don't think he could ever be relied on to do that consistently. That point about his importance to the system is spot on. It's why I also thought Salah would regress this year. Not because he's not an excellent player, but because I feel like his goal return is also so reliant on the system you play, and when it is not working quite as effectively as it did for most of last season, he's clearly going to suffer the consequences. When Firmino isn't taking some of that pressure off as well then it just adds to it.

How has your midfield changed? Clearly the introductions of Keita and Fabinho have really yet worked as planned. I know Henderson is pretty average on the ball, but his energy to me was critical to have you played in the middle. 

On that final point - it's so frustration, but we've learnt to live with it. There's so many what ifs for both of us over the last few years. A new midfielder here, another goalscorer there, but ultimately that is out of our control and we just have to continue to hope our managers can work with the squads they have (us more than you) and find that winning formula. It's definitely frustrating that we have taken 10-12-15 years developing the club as we have, only to see teams like Man City and Chelsea spend copious amounts of oil money to jump to the front of the queue. If you'd told me in the early 2000's that we'd finish above Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool and not win the league I'd have laughed at you. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

29 minutes ago, Storts said:

What a great post.

I think you're right - last season's goal tally was clearly at the top end of what he's capable of and I don't think he could ever be relied on to do that consistently. That point about his importance to the system is spot on. It's why I also thought Salah would regress this year. Not because he's not an excellent player, but because I feel like his goal return is also so reliant on the system you play, and when it is not working quite as effectively as it did for most of last season, he's clearly going to suffer the consequences. When Firmino isn't taking some of that pressure off as well then it just adds to it.

How has your midfield changed? Clearly the introductions of Keita and Fabinho have really yet worked as planned. I know Henderson is pretty average on the ball, but his energy to me was critical to have you played in the middle. 

On that final point - it's so frustration, but we've learnt to live with it. There's so many what ifs for both of us over the last few years. A new midfielder here, another goalscorer there, but ultimately that is out of our control and we just have to continue to hope our managers can work with the squads they have (us more than you) and find that winning formula. It's definitely frustrating that we have taken 10-12-15 years developing the club as we have, only to see teams like Man City and Chelsea spend copious amounts of oil money to jump to the front of the queue. If you'd told me in the early 2000's that we'd finish above Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool and not win the league I'd have laughed at you. 

For some reason, I don't know what it is, I don't think our midfielders are really performing at the levels they played last season other than Gini and Milner. Keita's been pretty hit or miss, but I don't think that's too unexpected it seems pretty typical for our players signed from the Bundesliga and he's shown a lot of his passing range and dribbling that is clearly why we've signed him. I also think that injury was very unfortunate, as the only way he'll learn and settle is by getting more game time and the injury has clearly hampered that a bit. Henderson... I don't really know what's up with him, he's not been as consistent this season. And Fabinho, other than against poor opposition, has been fairly disappointing. And he's arguably the midfield signing we needed the most (a real out and out defensive midfielder). If Henderson can find consistency again, you're right his energy is vital to how we play in the middle. And in the last few seasons we've been used to a very consistent and very good Henderson - I think he's one of our better midfielders and also one of England's better midfielders, so I'm hoping he finds his feet again.

But to me, the midfield and us pressing less generally this season, are the biggest differences to how we set up last season and our overall performances. Other than the European away games though, I don't really have much to complain about.

[LFCMadLad]

I honestly don't know why people can't see patterns in a managers approach to new players.

It should come as absolutely no surprise to our fans that Fabinho and Kieta haven't hit 100% yet. Neither did Robertson, neither did Ox when they first signed. Neither did Wiji for that matter. Klopp nearly always gives a player (especially in important positions like in midfield) around 6 months to get used to the style and system of the team before giving them a real run in the team. 

Kieta actually started pretty well but he's been injured for the best part of a month, only just returning to full fitness, whilst Fabinho has been extremely hit and miss... great one week, average the next. He's only actually started about 3 games though so let's not be writing him off already like our fans usually do with players that don't rip it up immediately. 

Some of our fans are so fucking funny.

We have made the best start to a Premiership season that We have EVER made and it's in our own hands whether we qualify from our CL group or not. We have conceded only 5 PL goals all season, which is a record in itself and have had the toughest run of games out of all the other top 6 clubs,........ yet our own fans are going into meltdown because of a few poor performances?

We are not at our best, far from it. 

Let that sink in a minute. We are in a great position, with a great team, that are playing well within themselves and for some strange reason people are acting like we are a club in crisis?

You couldn't fucking make it up 

[Harry]

Not being able to hit form this far into the season is a bit concerning mate, even if it is excellent to be saying that from second place. 

 

On Firmino, I would like to see him score more, but at the end of the day he’s finishing the chances he does get. The overall reduction in cohesion between him and Salah this season has meant less chances for him, but we saw from last season he was capable of bagging a solid haul when the team is playing cohesively. 

He’s critical to that cohesion so whilst a 10% more clinical version of Firmino might be preferable, there aren’t too many players out there I’d willingly swap for him. Suarez probably.

I’m also pretty comfortable with Sturridge as second choice. But its a trade off with being more of a goal scorer, vs less cohesive with the rest of the attack.....

[LFCMadLad]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Not being able to hit form this far into the season is a bit concerning mate, even if it is excellent to be saying that from second place. 

 

On Firmino, I would like to see him score more, but at the end of the day he’s finishing the chances he does get. The overall reduction in cohesion between him and Salah this season has meant less chances for him, but we saw from last season he was capable of bagging a solid haul when the team is playing cohesively. 

He’s critical to that cohesion so whilst a 10% more clinical version of Firmino might be preferable, there aren’t too many players out there I’d willingly swap for him. Suarez probably.

I’m also pretty comfortable with Sturridge as second choice. But its a trade off with being more of a goal scorer, vs less cohesive with the rest of the attack.....

We say we are off form but in what way? Attacking wise? Because defensively we have been absolutely brilliant?!

Last season and in previous seasons we have been 'apparently' on form yet got slated for our inabilities at the back?! 

"Klopp can't sort a defense" people cried.. "he's all out attack with no balance" they said.

Klopp isn't perfect (who is?) but he's trying to find a balance within the team, whilst trying to keep us competitive. 

It's a hard fucking job, especially in a league as competitive as the EPL. Sadly though most people can't be arsed to look at the bigger picture, always wanting to jump straight in, slaggin players off after 3 games or the manager who has literally turned us on our head since he took over. 

Seriously, most seasons it's our own fans that amuse me the most 

[RandoEFC+]

Firmino is one of their best players. Not many strikers in the world that can offer what he does to the rest of the team. He probably needs to score a few more but he's never going to be top goalscorer and the way Liverpool play, he can get away with his goal tally as long as Mane and Salah continue to score as many as they do.

[LFCMadLad]

8 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

How you can be within touching distance of the top and off form is beyond me - as much as it pains me to say it.

Exactly. We have gone from being excellent attacking wise to excellent defensively. 

Just need to find a balance really. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

14 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

We say we are off form but in what way? Attacking wise? Because defensively we have been absolutely brilliant?!

Last season and in previous seasons we have been 'apparently' on form yet got slated for our inabilities at the back?! 

"Klopp can't sort a defense" people cried.. "he's all out attack with no balance" they said.

Klopp isn't perfect (who is?) but he's trying to find a balance within the team, whilst trying to keep us competitive. 

It's a hard fucking job, especially in a league as competitive as the EPL. Sadly though most people can't be arsed to look at the bigger picture, always wanting to jump straight in, slaggin players off after 3 games or the manager who has literally turned us on our head since he took over. 

Seriously, most seasons it's our own fans that amuse me the most 

 

I agree with you that we’re much improved defensively and we look obviously more competitive in the league than last season.

Doesn’t mean we can’t be concerned about things that do look concerning. And some things like “patterns” I think are overplayed. It’s not as though Robertson came in and was shite, his first performance was brilliant and he’s been brilliant almost every time he’s played. But Robertson also had to win his place from a Moreno that was in a rare patch of good form and it didn’t make sense to disrupt a defense that was winning games. I think that’s different to the Ox having a slow start tbh. Yeah it’s true Klopp has some patterns, like signing someone cheap from a relegated side that ends up being ace - 3 years of enjoying that.

I’d argue that all players settle in differently. Some hit the ground running, some settle in slowly, and some just never really make the grade. So yeah, Fabinho may be less shit than he’s been in the future. But he’s still shown much more bad than good and I can only judge him on how he performs. I hope he turns it around, but until then I’m going to prefer other midfielders to him.

11 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

How you can be within touching distance of the top and off form is beyond me - as much as it pains me to say it.

I think we’ve improved in some areas and gotten worse in others. Fans want to see a more balanced side.

Tbf I think Klopp and the squad also want to see a more balanced side and we’re working towards it. I don’t see a lot for us to complain about, even if I do see reason to be concerned.

Goals or not, Firmino is imo our most important players. And I think he’ll manage to improve his game over the course of the season. It’s part of adjusting to tactical changes and playing in a bit of a more controlled and disciplined side.

[LFCMadLad]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I agree with you that we’re much improved defensively and we look obviously more competitive in the league than last season.

Doesn’t mean we can’t be concerned about things that do look concerning. And some things like “patterns” I think are overplayed. It’s not as though Robertson came in and was shite, his first performance was brilliant and he’s been brilliant almost every time he’s played. But Robertson also had to win his place from a Moreno that was in a rare patch of good form and it didn’t make sense to disrupt a defense that was winning games. I think that’s different to the Ox having a slow start tbh. Yeah it’s true Klopp has some patterns, like signing someone cheap from a relegated side that ends up being ace - 3 years of enjoying that.

I’d argue that all players settle in differently. Some hit the ground running, some settle in slowly, and some just never really make the grade. So yeah, Fabinho may be less shit than he’s been in the future. But he’s still shown much more bad than good and I can only judge him on how he performs. I hope he turns it around, but until then I’m going to prefer other midfielders to him.

I think we’ve improved in some areas and gotten worse in others. Fans want to see a more balanced side.

Tbf I think Klopp and the squad also want to see a more balanced side and we’re working towards it. I don’t see a lot for us to complain about, even if I do see reason to be concerned.

Goals or not, Firmino is imo our most important players. And I think he’ll manage to improve his game over the course of the season. It’s part of adjusting to tactical changes and playing in a bit of a more controlled and disciplined side.

As usual Gonzo I agree with almost everything you say. Just wish people would have more trust and patience before jumping on the media and fanboy bandwagon. 

We are in a good way..... without getting out of second gear. 

[Mel81x+]

Last season we were an extremely offensive unit and it showed in Europe with the way we were decimating teams with the front three playing switch leaving defenses confused on who to actually cover. Does this team still have that in them? They do but things have changed from last season and I think the manager has the right idea here. We paid the price for being offensive and not working on a more controlled midfield or for that matter a better defensive line to compliment all the open spaces we left from being so offensive. 

Klopp realizes this and has brought in personnel (VVD being the best signing out of all our defensive bolstering from last season) but to expect it all to just 'click' is a bit weird. When Firmino came in people were asking questions about why we paid such a hefty price for a player that was clearly not getting goals and that was never the intention for him. Fast forward a few months and look what was achieved, we were in a UCL final and playing some of the most attractive football in the world. But to think that it was the only way to win games and solidify a position in the league would have been foolish because you need a balanced side to achieve any of that. Fabinho and Keita are both great additions as is our goalkeeper but we have to give them time to show their true potential. People wondered why Klopp kept Andy out after his super performance in that cup game and I'll raise my hand and say that I thought the same but fast forward a few months again and I can't think of anyone I'd want in his position right now. 

Do we need a striker? Yes we do. Having the ability to change tactics in the second half or to make changes to starting lineups when you're up against teams which play far more defensively is what good sides do and we're getting there. I always have time for Klopp because he has a philosophy which he isn't ready to desert but he also recognizes that we have deficiencies and will plug them but not with the risk of destroying the cohesion he has spent building over the last few seasons.

[IgnisExcubitor]

To add to the points made by others, we are no longer playing the chaotic way, which we did last season, where we had those 5 or 10 mins spells in the every game where we would completely decimate the opposition. 

We have changed our tactics, where we are now controlling matches. It's not as exciting as last season, but we have become more efficient, which explains us not dropping silly points and closing out games. Hence the brilliant start to the league, despite playing Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea away. 

When the attackers find form, this team will come closest to the best team we had in past couple of decades, which was Rafa's 2008-09 side. 

As for Firmino, similar arguments were made at the start of the last season. He ended up with 25 goals and 14 assists in just the PL and UCL combined. And he is the player that makes out system click. I have no worries about him.

[The Artful Dodger]

Firmino was pivotal last season to Liverpool's attacking success,. his intelligence and hard work was central to whole front 3 dynamic. Something has changed about the whole side this year, I don't think you can say it's a bad thing as they look very much a better side in terms of the league, able to churn out results and never look under too much pressure. I don't think the free-flowing football is coming back though and Firmino is suffering, partly because of the change but also his own performances are just lacking.