UK Politics

[Honey Honey]

Those who would vote left in this country have been divided and will now be conquered.

With UKIP reduced to a little party for anti-islam cranks that leaves 5 left leaning party's attacking each other (plus in Labour's case attacking their own) versus 1 right wing party presenting themselves as the "stable" choice.

The British left has a terrible confirmation bias, wilful ignorance, bitchy problem which is pushing swing voters into the arms of probably one of the most sickening conservatives in modern British politics, Chairman May. She hates freedom, hates human rights, hates animal rights.

I have absolutely no hope for any immediate correction on the left after the election. Each division will blame the other not realising they are all to blame and have each played their part.

Since the left leaning candidates in my constituency are the epitome of the self defeating left I will probably abstain rather than give them any approval. 

[Fairy In Boots]

Thoughts on comerade Corbyn's manifesto? 

[Danny]

It's pissed the Daily Mail off so it must be decent.

Love their front page "Corbyn wants to take us back to the 70s"...and then next to it is an article "girl jobs and boy jobs ARE the secret of love". The gift that keeps on giving.

But seriously, who could argue against free tuition fees, a government that actually supports the NHS, etc etc. That's my swingvote inside me talking, I'd like to see a more indepth and balanced discussion to see if it all actually makes sense.

Theres no way I will be voting Tory, but with Brexit I would rather vote Labour if I believe they could do the best to keep us out of the shit than vote Labour for the sake of it, otherwise I'll probably vote something like Green or Lib Dem in protest.

[Fairy In Boots]

20 minutes ago, Danny said:

It's pissed the Daily Mail off so it must be decent.

Love their front page "Corbyn wants to take us back to the 70s"...and then next to it is an article "girl jobs and boy jobs ARE the secret of love". The gift that keeps on giving.

But seriously, who could argue against free tuition fees, a government that actually supports the NHS, etc etc. That's my swingvote inside me talking, I'd like to see a more indepth and balanced discussion to see if it all actually makes sense.

Theres no way I will be voting Tory, but with Brexit I would rather vote Labour if I believe they could do the best to keep us out of the shit than vote Labour for the sake of it, otherwise I'll probably vote something like Green or Lib Dem in protest.

Erm because we can't afford it. When will all you idealistic socialist realise socialism drags the standard down not up. 

Take Uni, we've essentially created a industry out of education. Higher learning should be for those who have the capacity to go on to great things to enhance society. As it is a piss up for 18-25's who come out with naff degrees they never use because they end up working in insurance. If you had free tuition you'll get even more jumping into it, bigger classes means poorer standards. 

The only way I'd be in favour of free tuition is if we drastically raised the bar for entry to uni. As is too many waste 2-3 years, but it's done because it fudges the fact youth unemployment would be horrific if we weren't letting all these kids have a jolly. 

[Danny]

7 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Erm because we can't afford it. When will all you idealistic socialist realise socialism drags the standard down not up. 

Take Uni, we've essentially created a industry out of education. Higher learning should be for those who have the capacity to go on to great things to enhance society. As it is a piss up for 18-25's who come out with naff degrees they never use because they end up working in insurance. If you had free tuition you'll get even more jumping into it, bigger classes means poorer standards. 

The only way I'd be in favour of free tuition is if we drastically raised the bar for entry to uni. As is too many waste 2-3 years, but it's done because it fudges the fact youth unemployment would be horrific if we weren't letting all these kids have a jolly. 

Apparently we can't afford a lot of things but it doesn't stop people voting for the party that funds the things we don't need and closes down and sells of the things we do need.

[Fairy In Boots]

3 hours ago, Danny said:

Apparently we can't afford a lot of things but it doesn't stop people voting for the party that funds the things we don't need and closes down and sells of the things we do need.

Diane abbot must be doing the sums then, perhaps Corbyn has a magical pot of money. In reality we're borrowing it again

[Honey Honey]

Free tuition is the reallocation of resources away from the poor and needy so that Tarquin and Henrietta can get a freebie for their Drama degree.

[Burning Gold]

As outraged as some people get over tuition fees, there's no one that isn't going to university because of them. If Labour pledged to offer realistic maintenance loans or address cost of living in some other way, they could have an effective policy; this is just political virtue signalling.

[Fairy In Boots]

1 hour ago, HoneyNUFC said:

Free tuition is the reallocation of resources away from the poor and needy so that Tarquin and Henrietta can get a freebie for their Drama degree.

Harv, that's just 70's class war bullshit, you're better than that. 

Look at the numbers going to university, we both know they've industrialised education so they don't look bad with the complete lack of apprenticeships/ jobs for school leavers. Half the cunts being churned out of universities are thick as pig shit and had absolutely no business going there in the first place.  

£9k is reasonable at present, repayment over 21k is to, if anything it should sharpen the focus of less advantageous students rather than them going on a three year jolly and dropping out. I get it you work hard/play hard but as a tax payer I'm not funding the fucking jolly. If you're a good student and you're going to bigger and better things this is small fry, a lad I know was dirt poor but smart he's a surgeon now his student loan is done by 30 because he applied himself. Another lad I know not as smart but from a more well off background, went uni, he has 20+ k debt for 5 years (1 was backpacking) he spent fuck arsing around without much to show for it aside from a degree in social studies which he applies shelf stacking in home fucking bargains. It's a situation that's repeated all over the UK, if I'd gone Uni growing up on a council estate where 90% of the jobs were dependent on MG Rover, I'd have applied myself because I knew what was riding on it. I'm not adverse to education being free I'm certainly pro free places at grammar schools for disadvantaged kids, but we can't fund everyone because frankly Uni should just be for the cream. 

Also in the real world it's only really the cream of the graduates that get on post uni anyway, most with bullshit degrees end up in menial jobs because they've not grasp on reality for at least 5 years out of uni. 

[Honey Honey]

41 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Harv, that's just 70's class war bullshit, you're better than that. 

Look at the numbers going to university, we both know they've industrialised education so they don't look bad with the complete lack of apprenticeships/ jobs for school leavers. Half the cunts being churned out of universities are thick as pig shit and had absolutely no business going there in the first place.  

£9k is reasonable at present, repayment over 21k is to, if anything it should sharpen the focus of less advantageous students rather than them going on a three year jolly and dropping out. I get it you work hard/play hard but as a tax payer I'm not funding the fucking jolly. If you're a good student and you're going to bigger and better things this is small fry, a lad I know was dirt poor but smart he's a surgeon now his student loan is done by 30 because he applied himself. Another lad I know not as smart but from a more well off background, went uni, he has 20+ k debt for 5 years (1 was backpacking) he spent fuck arsing around without much to show for it aside from a degree in social studies which he applies shelf stacking in home fucking bargains. It's a situation that's repeated all over the UK, if I'd gone Uni growing up on a council estate where 90% of the jobs were dependent on MG Rover, I'd have applied myself because I knew what was riding on it. I'm not adverse to education being free I'm certainly pro free places at grammar schools for disadvantaged kids, but we can't fund everyone because frankly Uni should just be for the cream. 

Also in the real world it's only really the cream of the graduates that get on post uni anyway, most with bullshit degrees end up in menial jobs because they've not grasp on reality for at least 5 years out of uni. 

 

Even if you aren't the sharpest tool in the box, or the 'cream', university virtually guarantees that you will go on to have a middle class lifestyle, ergo it should not be free. The Blair policy of taxing your productivity to pay for your education decision only when you make it into the middle class earners is the right one.

Student debt is not £21k, it is £35-40k because 18-21 year olds need loans to cover their living costs which has also gone up.

£35-40k debt puts us in the territory of those who go to university completely wiping out their productivity gains achieved by obtaining a degree. Worse than that, people who end up in the lower middle class will never pay it off whereas before they would. Graduates now have to take a complete punt on themselves and their position in the market place, that shouldn't be the case. Having such a large amount of people having to pay 1-2% extra tax to pay off their debt for a longer period than before also places an extra restriction and burden on the ability to raise more funds for the poorer in society through raising taxes on the middle earners in the future. Tax increases will become too big a squeeze on middle earners if they are already paying an extra 2%, of course Tory boys like Cameron and the shrink the state no matter what are too willfully ignorant to ever consider the idea that one day we might need or want to raise more tax. Whilst free tuition reallocates resources from the poor and needy onto the middle class like in Scotland, the David Cameron method reallocates future productivity to the super rich bond holders away from both middle class consumption and those in need in the working class. 

 

[SirBalon]

It's simple...  It should be measured on how much their parents earn and from there on how the level of subsidy the tax payer should give.  I'm not paying for someone's offspring where their parents can afford it no problems as I don't expect anyone to pay for mine.  But I have plenty of friends where their children are doing a brilliant job in school which if they continue, they should have a clean cut shot at Uni!  There parents can't afford it I know and I'd hate to see those kids that have put so much effort in to make their parents proud have a shit debt to pay for when it's based on education.  I'm not even going to start on what I think all of this means.

[Fairy In Boots]

12 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

 

Even if you aren't the sharpest tool in the box, or the 'cream', university virtually guarantees that you will go on to have a middle class lifestyle, ergo it should not be free. The Blair policy of taxing your productivity to pay for your education decision only when you make it into the middle class earners is the right one.

Student debt is not £21k, it is £35-40k because 18-21 year olds need loans to cover their living costs which has also gone up.

£35-40k debt puts us in the territory of those who go to university completely wiping out their productivity gains achieved by obtaining a degree. Worse than that, people who end up in the lower middle class will never pay it off whereas before they would. Graduates now have to take a complete punt on themselves and their position in the market place, that shouldn't be the case. Having such a large amount of people having to pay 1-2% extra tax to pay off their debt for a longer period than before also places an extra restriction and burden on the ability to raise more funds for the poorer in society through raising taxes on the middle earners in the future. Tax increases will become too big a squeeze on middle earners if they are already paying an extra 2%, of course Tory boys like Cameron and the shrink the state no matter what are too willfully ignorant to ever consider the idea that one day we might need or want to raise more tax. Whilst free tuition reallocates resources from the poor and needy onto the middle class like in Scotland, the David Cameron method reallocates future productivity to the super rich bond holders away from both middle class consumption and those in need in the working class. 

 

21k is the repayment threshold, you don't start repaying until you're earning more than that as I understand it. 

I disagree about it guaranteeing a middle class lifestyle, the kid I know who works in Home bargain's I wouldn't class as middle class. There isn't a clearly defined middle/working class anymore anyway it's a relic of the 70's. I'd say your lifestyle is linked to your earning potential, electricians plumbers and brickies currently earn what most would class as traditional middle class earnings and they're traditionally working class jobs. What manufacturing we have left is hi tech and the wages most engineers can command now are well in the sphere of "middle class". 

You mentioned the free tuition in Scotland but more kids from a disadvantage background have gone to UNI in England than in Scotland since the higher fees were brought in.  

Also in terms of tax, I'd have thought the 3-4 years out of the labour market offsets the potential lower taxation potential anyway? And as above earning potential isn't strickly linked to education. It's the individual and their drive to earn, how many lads do we all know from various "working class" areas that have next to no higher education and have gone onto do well? I know loads and it's down to them pushing themselves no one else. 

It's the big problem with the left in this country, the philosophy of the UK has always been classic liberalism. To many go to uni get indoctrinated with socialist ethics come out think the state owes them and squander the opportunity they've had with their education. It's got fuck all to do with education or tuition fees it's the individual, those who want to get on do, those who don't look for people to blame. 

Just look at Scotland with free tuition yet more Kids in England take the risk, look at the difference in philosophy to Scotland leans left towards Socialism England right towards libertarian ideals. 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2016/jan/28/the-evidence-suggests-i-was-completely-wrong-about-tuition-fees

 

[DeadLinesman]

14 hours ago, SirBalon said:

It's simple...  It should be measured on how much their parents earn and from there on how the level of subsidy the tax payer should give.  I'm not paying for someone's offspring where their parents can afford it no problems as I don't expect anyone to pay for mine.  But I have plenty of friends where their children are doing a brilliant job in school which if they continue, they should have a clean cut shot at Uni!  There parents can't afford it I know and I'd hate to see those kids that have put so much effort in to make their parents proud have a shit debt to pay for when it's based on education.  I'm not even going to start on what I think all of this means.

Dangerous, dangerous territory. Life is about choices, and that's the choice of parents to help with tuition or not. Why should a child benefit from free higher education, just because their parents can't afford it? 

 

"Sorry your parents have some money but still don't want to pay for your degree, but Barry down the road gets it for free because his parents are in low paying jobs'. That's pretty discriminatory towards the kid that has no real say in the matter.

[SirBalon]

31 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

Dangerous, dangerous territory. Life is about choices, and that's the choice of parents to help with tuition or not. Why should a child benefit from free higher education, just because their parents can't afford it? 

 

"Sorry your parents have some money but still don't want to pay for your degree, but Barry down the road gets it for free because his parents are in low paying jobs'. That's pretty discriminatory towards the kid that has no real say in the matter.

Obviously that child should have to qualify for higher education through what he or she has achived beforehand and subsequently the amount of money you get subsidised. 

[Fairy In Boots]

[Honey Honey]

8 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

21k is the repayment threshold, you don't start repaying until you're earning more than that as I understand it. 

I disagree about it guaranteeing a middle class lifestyle, the kid I know who works in Home bargain's I wouldn't class as middle class. There isn't a clearly defined middle/working class anymore anyway it's a relic of the 70's. I'd say your lifestyle is linked to your earning potential, electricians plumbers and brickies currently earn what most would class as traditional middle class earnings and they're traditionally working class jobs. What manufacturing we have left is hi tech and the wages most engineers can command now are well in the sphere of "middle class". 

You mentioned the free tuition in Scotland but more kids from a disadvantage background have gone to UNI in England than in Scotland since the higher fees were brought in.  

Also in terms of tax, I'd have thought the 3-4 years out of the labour market offsets the potential lower taxation potential anyway? And as above earning potential isn't strickly linked to education. It's the individual and their drive to earn, how many lads do we all know from various "working class" areas that have next to no higher education and have gone onto do well? I know loads and it's down to them pushing themselves no one else. 

It's the big problem with the left in this country, the philosophy of the UK has always been classic liberalism. To many go to uni get indoctrinated with socialist ethics come out think the state owes them and squander the opportunity they've had with their education. It's got fuck all to do with education or tuition fees it's the individual, those who want to get on do, those who don't look for people to blame. 

Just look at Scotland with free tuition yet more Kids in England take the risk, look at the difference in philosophy to Scotland leans left towards Socialism England right towards libertarian ideals. 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2016/jan/28/the-evidence-suggests-i-was-completely-wrong-about-tuition-fees

 

How long in Home bargains and where in the country though? Many of those I graduated with in 2011 ended up working in Tesco type jobs and bar jobs, in some cases for years. When I came out I was unemployed for 4 months, got a basic job in admin, went to Canada after 6 months of that, came back was unemployed for 4 or 5 months, got a dirt low paying job in Gateshead. In the end everyone I know fell on their feet and are on an upward trajectory into a 30 year career in the middle income category in roles employers ask for graduates or advance graduates faster. Those who lived in the South fell on their feet in half the time it took those in the North and Midlands. I used to be pissed at how people who did worse than me at university from the south had better careers, so I moved to London and doubled my North East salary within a year. 

You don't have to go to university to achieve middle income but it does give you a statistical advantage in the service sector.

You need more than hard work, you need to make the right choices and have a bit of good fortune. University is supposed to help people statistically improve the probability that they make the right choice and that they have the chance to make the right choice. That can vary depending on what degree you choose.

There is no socialist indoctrination in university, the socialists are the cranks there too. What happens is not some deliberate indoctrination by lefty tutors as you hear a lot when an Oxford professor speaks out. Students are thrown together in a mix of individuals who had a good childhood from all over the country and world in an enviornment that is stable and consistent, that turns students into egalitarians. Any trend towards egalitarianism is as much a product of the university enviornment as trends towards UKIP are in Hartlepool. It's not because of tutors just as it is not because of the Daily express that Hartlepool is the way it is.

The great irony of liberalism is it doesn't take hold unless everyone is pretty much the same. Socialism isn't liberal it is an authoritarian reaction to an environment where people aren't the same. In universities the socialists are a certain type of personality rather than a product of the university. A type that is in the minority. From my experience young revolutionary socialists tend to be uptight around people who are not like them. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the result of not being very cool as a child, of not fitting in, of not being able to flow in and out of different social settings and groups. Whilst Jeremy Corbyn is a top bloke I see a lot of his socially awkward mannerisms in the socialists I knew in my youth. Corbyn looks out of place with many people. He isnt socially fluid and that to me is classic socialist.

Students on the whole tend to be lib dems not labour. 

[Bluebird Hewitt]

Following the cyber attacks on NHS England, Corbyn has now suddenly added a £37bn pledge to the manifesto, including £10bn to upgrade IT systems and repair buildings. This will apparently be covered by tax increases and capital borrowing, according to the BBC.

Just adding things that have suddenly occurred just seems desperate really.

[Fairy In Boots]

On 12/05/2017 at 7:44 PM, HoneyNUFC said:

How long in Home bargains and where in the country though? Many of those I graduated with in 2011 ended up working in Tesco type jobs and bar jobs, in some cases for years. When I came out I was unemployed for 4 months, got a basic job in admin, went to Canada after 6 months of that, came back was unemployed for 4 or 5 months, got a dirt low paying job in Gateshead. In the end everyone I know fell on their feet and are on an upward trajectory into a 30 year career in the middle income category in roles employers ask for graduates or advance graduates faster. Those who lived in the South fell on their feet in half the time it took those in the North and Midlands. I used to be pissed at how people who did worse than me at university from the south had better careers, so I moved to London and doubled my North East salary within a year. 

You don't have to go to university to achieve middle income but it does give you a statistical advantage in the service sector.

You need more than hard work, you need to make the right choices and have a bit of good fortune. University is supposed to help people statistically improve the probability that they make the right choice and that they have the chance to make the right choice. That can vary depending on what degree you choose.

There is no socialist indoctrination in university, the socialists are the cranks there too. What happens is not some deliberate indoctrination by lefty tutors as you hear a lot when an Oxford professor speaks out. Students are thrown together in a mix of individuals who had a good childhood from all over the country and world in an enviornment that is stable and consistent, that turns students into egalitarians. Any trend towards egalitarianism is as much a product of the university enviornment as trends towards UKIP are in Hartlepool. It's not because of tutors just as it is not because of the Daily express that Hartlepool is the way it is.

The great irony of liberalism is it doesn't take hold unless everyone is pretty much the same. Socialism isn't liberal it is an authoritarian reaction to an environment where people aren't the same. In universities the socialists are a certain type of personality rather than a product of the university. A type that is in the minority. From my experience young revolutionary socialists tend to be uptight around people who are not like them. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the result of not being very cool as a child, of not fitting in, of not being able to flow in and out of different social settings and groups. Whilst Jeremy Corbyn is a top bloke I see a lot of his socially awkward mannerisms in the socialists I knew in my youth. Corbyn looks out of place with many people. He isnt socially fluid and that to me is classic socialist.

Students on the whole tend to be lib dems not labour. 

The guy at home Bargains is in the Midlands, I take your point about better wages down south but wages are inflated anyway down there. I bet not many own homes certainly within the M25.

Also I did say socialist ethics not socialist's, your actual communist's are still marginalised thank god. But Uni has started to go down the road of universal thought with a left tilt, a great example is safe spaces and bullshit teaching on gender etc. I'm pleased if your saying that Uni is still a place for open ideas from all ends of the spectrum, although I'm sure you can appreciate the more noise about "progressive ideas" is worrying. Uni should be exactly that, a forum where all schools of thought are challenged and free speech is at a core belief. From the outside looking in it seems in the last 10 years pc culture has crept in and that's being eroded. 

Education and certainly youthful institutions always seem to be left anyway, it's part of being young. We're all a bit idealistic at a young age and we grow more conservative as we get older. Perhaps it's the world showing us we can't change everything and you can't please everyone it's certainly why I'm more on the libatarian side of things I've just encountered too many cunts. 

[Fairy In Boots]

On 15/05/2017 at 9:43 AM, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Following the cyber attacks on NHS England, Corbyn has now suddenly added a £37bn pledge to the manifesto, including £10bn to upgrade IT systems and repair buildings. This will apparently be covered by tax increases and capital borrowing, according to the BBC.

Just adding things that have suddenly occurred just seems desperate really.

The blokes a fucking idiot and his bump in polls is just the fucking idiots voting along old tribal linesas always. There's no real plan he can't control his cabinet let alone his party, he'd be an unmitigated disaster in charge of a country. May and the current crop of Tories aren't brilliant but they're light years ahead of this current shower of clowns. 

[The Artful Dodger]

That's the best you've got ^^

The Tories are running this country dangerously close to a complete economic meltdown, inflation is starting to rocket up and living standards are dropping massively. More of the same is not the answer, Corbyn's manifesto is the first decent democratic socialist one Labour have offered in a long time, if any supposed Labour voter doesn't like it then they've never really been into what Labour are about.

Unlikely to win, but it's good to see Labour trying to represent what it always should do.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

The blokes a fucking idiot and his bump in polls is just the fucking idiots voting along old tribal linesas always. There's no real plan he can't control his cabinet let alone his party, he'd be an unmitigated disaster in charge of a country. May and the current crop of Tories aren't brilliant but they're light years ahead of this current shower of clowns. 

haha you can't seriously believe that bit surely?

we might as well regress to the 70s with May in charge. 

[Fairy In Boots]

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

That's the best you've got ^^

The Tories are running this country dangerously close to a complete economic meltdown, inflation is starting to rocket up and living standards are dropping massively. More of the same is not the answer, Corbyn's manifesto is the first decent democratic socialist one Labour have offered in a long time, if any supposed Labour voter doesn't like it then they've never really been into what Labour are about.

Unlikely to win, but it's good to see Labour trying to represent what it always should do.

I agree that the Tories need to start delivering real change. The Tories we've had since Blair have been Blue Blairites anyway, I'm not convinced by May at all and think a decent Organised opposition is greatly needed because they've got a free reign to deliver dross. 

However Corbyn's manifesto would be an absolute disaster, this shit just doesn't work. You talk about economic meltdown from the Tories then crow about what appears to be a suicidal borrowing plan that Chavez would have been proud of and looks like Diane Abbot has been involved with the maths. How's he going to deliver Brexit nationalise the EU and borrow a few Trillion off the ECB? It's ok those earning over 80k can pay. 

As I said above it's great all this socialist ideals "we're all equal yah yah yah, tax the rich and give to the poor" it sounds fucking fantastic it really does. It just doesn't fucking work though, even if we as a state bought into it and gave it a good effort l, the rest of the world wouldn't and we'd be fucked as those wealthy enough would leave. I actually appreciate that it's a different option rather than two of the same and a personality squabble. Hopefully he inspires more well thought out and reasoned efforts in the elections to come because although he's alternative, this is by and large stupidity. 

1 hour ago, Stan said:

haha you can't seriously believe that bit surely?

we might as well regress to the 70s with May in charge. 

The 70's seem to be some sort of nostalgic utopia for Jez, and yes I do mean it. In terms of organisition the man and his party are a complete mess. 

[Honey Honey]

For the last 9 years the conservatives have been telling us we can't afford anything and in 7 years of them in power we've somehow managed to afford a large deficit, tax cuts and added a trillion to the debt.

The Labour plan isn't anywhere near as unaffordable as the Tories claim, they are just reverting back to their old message that they know still sticks.

[Inverted]

I love how English right-wingers believe it's better to give up some economic stability to regain their pride and sovereignty, but it's not worth an economic risk to restore dignity to the disabled, feed kids and care for the sick. 

Pure ideology.

[SirBalon]

3 minutes ago, Inverted said:

I love how English right-wingers believe it's better to give up some economic stability to regain their pride and sovereignty, but it's not worth an economic risk to restore dignity to the disabled, feed kids and care for the sick. 

Pure ideology.

There's a lot of hypocrisy flying around at the moment and there's even more stupidity than hypocrisy.  There's only one social class that's going to suffer at the end of this and the rest will either move away or get a backhanded fix.