The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Dr. Gonzo]

Also I think it’s pretty clear the timing of this is in relation to the noise of normalisation of ties between Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Iran and Hamas do not want a change to the status quo of geopolitical relations in the region. MBS may love Israel, but his subjects don’t.

So Hamas and Iran have sacrificed the  people of Gaza to push for this massive escalation. Everyone in the world knows Israel will respond massively disproportionately. And in terms of how the Saudi population will react, now normalisation of ties is basically a nonstarter. And that’s reflected in the Saudi foreign minister statement in response to the attacks.

The average age of people in Gaza is 15-18, their last election was 20 years ago - Hamas won’t hold any anymore. So these people live under a dictatorship where the leaders sit comfy in Qatar, are used as political pawns, and have leadership that’s constantly acted to ensure Israel’s treatment of them is as harsh as possible.

It’s easy to be sympathetic to them. They live in awful conditions and are oppressed by Israel and Hamas, neither of whom really view them as human. It is an awful situation for them.

But don’t think you’re doing them any favours by twerking for Hamas.

[Stan]

Just seen some harrowing stuff on social media I wish I didn't see .

There's no good guys here, is there? It's just cuntiness on both sides. 

[Mel81x+]

9 minutes ago, Stan said:

Just seen some harrowing stuff on social media I wish I didn't see .

There's no good guys here, is there? It's just cuntiness on both sides. 

And it hasn't even reached its peak yet. That's the worrying part. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

27 minutes ago, Stan said:

Just seen some harrowing stuff on social media I wish I didn't see .

There's no good guys here, is there? It's just cuntiness on both sides. 

Yeah some of the social media footage is absolutely horrific. To see people celebrate that or even just refuse to condemn it... it's pretty disgusting. When these are people who claim to stand for human rights but don't see the problem with acts like that... it really throws into question how much they actually care for human rights. One video of horrific violence against children is bad enough. I think I saw 3 by the time I decided "yeah, I'm not going to watch these videos anymore."

And the last part that I've bolded. It's a "no, but yes" sort of answer - there's a lot of nuance in this conflict. It's not black and white, there's no good vs. evil. Both sides have acted as oppressors and as the oppressed. The last Israeli leader that seemed serious about peace (Rabin) was assassinated by an Israeli far right lunatic (after Netanyahu put out a bunch of stochastic terrorism political slogans, banners, that encouraged extremist actions from extremist followers - it's a great shame for Israel that he became such a long lasting and prominent figure in Israeli politics, because he's done nothing to move either side any closer to peace. And Israel, as the more powerful of the sides, is the one who can make the first meaningful steps towards peace. And as a democracy, a lot of Israelis do bear a lot of responsibility for the apartheid state and their general lack of safety caused by this lack of peace.

And in Gaza, Hamas enjoys wide support. But they're also a dictatorship that took power before most of the people living there were ever born, feeding people gross propaganda and fueling extremism. And that extremism only comes back to bite Gaza in the arse when Hamas's terrorism draws the disproportionate response from Israel.

The status quo is a system that just feeds into the extremism on both sides, leading to an endless cycle of terror and oppression. I think a big part of the problem is Israel has made the mistake of fighting Hamas the way a conventional army is fought after attacks - airstrikes on Hamas targets. The problem with that is it's Gaza - Gaza city is the world's most densely populated place. Collateral damage is inevitable. Hamas knows this and plans for it and strategically puts it's military resources in places that will cause the most damage to innocents if (and when) Israel hits back. It's a riskier fight for Israel to send troops into Gaza and hunt for Hamas fighters the way US and UK special forces hunted down Al Qaeda. It would also reduce civilian casualties - which means less kids lose their parents after a Hamas attack, which means fewer kids don't grow up swearing to avenge their families and get revenge on Israeli families. It's not as quick, it's a lot more dangerous for their troops - it also sends a signal to Gazans that they aren't being collectively punished for being born as Palestinian Arabs and that their life isn't viewed as worthless by the IDF.

But at the same time there's Palestinians and Israelis that just want to live normal lives without security risks and fear of oppression. There's a lot of innocent people who's only crime is really being born in the wrong place at the wrong time - these people didn't choose their parents. They're not guilty of the crimes of previous generations. They're just people born in bad circumstances. I don't know if that makes them "good guys" but I don't think it makes them "bad guys" for being born where they were.

The world isn't a fairy tale, I think the notion of "good guys" vs "bad guys" is sort of misguided. It's comforting to remove nuance from things and have nice black & white sides to sit on... but even in world war 2, the Nazis were obviously evil. Does that make Stalin or Churchill automatically good guys for being opposed to them? Stalin's arguably worse than Hitler. Churchill's less evil than the both of them, but he also wasn't the greatest guy in history.

In a conflict with ethnic, racial, and religious tensions... where both sides are guilty of pretty significant atrocities... and over time the situation's just festered - you can pretty easily say that there's no good guys in the political machinery that led to today. But there's a lot of normal people on both sides who probably would all be a lot better off and happier if there was some lasting peace rather than being caught in the middle of being led astray by the bad guys running the show.

[Dr. Gonzo]

15 minutes ago, Mel81x said:

And it hasn't even reached its peak yet. That's the worrying part. 

Yeah, it's going to get pretty ugly, I think. Hamas threatening to execute hostages on camera - while Israel's called up 300,000 reservists to mobilise to go on the offensive. Just to put things into perspective, when Russia mobilised against Ukraine they went in with 200,000. So this is going to be a very heavy handed response from Israel by the looks of things. And that's without taking into account the airstrikes on Gaza that have already happened.

And if it's going to get pretty ugly... when it's already been pretty grotesque... it's hard to predict anything good coming of this.

[6666]

While the acts of during the rebellion are disgusting and while Hamas themselves are no angels, all of this is the fault of the Israeli government. They created this situation. You can call out the savage tactics while also looking at the bigger picture and knowing Israel are the bad guys. Expecting decades of violent oppression to just be accepted by the people being oppressed is ridiculous.

No different to Nat Turner's slave rebellion. Barbaric but the fault of the slave owners.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, 6666 said:

While the acts of during the rebellion are disgusting and while Hamas themselves are no angels, all of this is the fault of the Israeli government. They created this situation. You can call out the savage tactics while also looking at the bigger picture and knowing Israel are the bad guys. Expecting decades of violent oppression to just be accepted by the people being oppressed is ridiculous.

No different to Nat Turner's slave rebellion. Barbaric but the fault of the slave owners.

Nah, they're both bad guys. When Palestine was still under British mandate, many of the people who'd become leaders of the state of Israel were just terrorists the same way we'd view Hamas now. And Hamas are scum, the videos they've released themselves over the weekend prove it.

If you want to blame anyone as the creator of this situation... look at the UK and Europe, who decided that the best way to provide justice for the crimes against Jews Europe's inflicted (for centuries, not just the holocaust) would be to make the Middle East pay for it.

I agree that Israel (and the average Israeli citizen) has got a lot more power to determine how the future looks than Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, or any average Palestinian does. They live in a democracy. They have western support. They have an actual military. Breaking the cycle that feeds into extremism will only happen when they break the cycle.

The Nakba was a horrific crime against humanity. But surprise, surprise... so were the Jewish pogroms of the Arab world that went from the 1800s-1960s. This didn't just start in 1947. There's a long history of atrocity here. It's nowhere near as black and white as any slave rebellion.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

6 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

“I love human rights but I also support genocide” 

Just FYI this attack was probably ordered by the same people that oppress Iranians on a daily basis. If Iran gets bombed, Khamenei and co brought it on themselves.

I also doubt the government and military that struggled with a few hundred malnourished terrorists in trainers can wipe out a country.

But you do you, gleefully cheer on the videos of that child being ripped from her mothers arm and having her throat slit & all the other shit I saw this weekend.

I’m not going to pretend this is a flight between good and evil or oppressor vs oppressed. Hamas and the Israeli government are both bad guys. And a lot of innocent Israelis and Palestinians will die because they’ve got ethnic and racial hatred because of their sad little fairy tales.

No one is supporting genocide here. Only you sitting there saying "Hamas brought this on Palestine" As Israel prepares to use a militia raid as an excuse to kill tens of thousands. I made a clearly facetious comment on 'maybe if this shoe was on your foot you wouldn't be dancing quite so hard'. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

No one is supporting genocide here. Only you sitting there saying "Hamas brought this on Palestine" As Israel prepares to use a militia raid as an excuse to kill tens of thousands. I made a clearly facetious comment on 'maybe if this shoe was on your foot you wouldn't be dancing quite so hard'. 

Yeah but your statement was absolutely fucking stupid. The shoe is on the other foot, Hamas are backed by the Islamic Republic of Iran - the same people oppressing Iranians. Hamas's leaders knew what Israel's reaction would be because... why the fuck wouldn't they? This isn't their first rodeo. And if Israeli responses weren't proportionate before... it's only going to be worse for people in Gaza now that Hamas has made their worst attack on Israel in history.

It's the same flavour of oppression the people of Gaza face, they just get to eat a lot more of it because they're oppressed by Hamas AND the Israeli government. These are mostly 15-18 year olds, who've never even been given the chance to determine what kind of government rules over Gaza. They've got less freedom than your average Iranian (which is to say they've got less freedom than people with barely any freedom), they're fed loads of propaganda, and their leaders and "allies" view them as pawns to get slaughtered when it's convenient politically for them.

So Hamas leaders stay safe in Qatar, while Gaza's condemned to probably the worst brutality it's ever seen. How do Palestinians in Gaza benefit from Hamas's "rebellion"? Their suffering is only going to end if they get killed in Israel's response. Otherwise it's just more death and destruction for Gaza. All for the sake of subverting normal diplomatic relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel.

If you want to be proud of their latest "uprising," you do you. But don't pretend like Hamas didn't know this would result in a heavy handed response from Israel and that they weren't counting on that sort of response.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah but your statement was absolutely fucking stupid. The shoe is on the other foot, Hamas are backed by the Islamic Republic of Iran - the same people oppressing Iranians. Hamas's leaders knew what Israel's reaction would be because... why the fuck wouldn't they? This isn't their first rodeo. And if Israeli responses weren't proportionate before... it's only going to be worse for people in Gaza now that Hamas has made their worst attack on Israel in history.

It's the same flavour of oppression the people of Gaza face, they just get to eat a lot more of it because they're oppressed by Hamas AND the Israeli government. These are mostly 15-18 year olds, who've never even been given the chance to determine what kind of government rules over Gaza. They've got less freedom than your average Iranian (which is to say they've got less freedom than people with barely any freedom), they're fed loads of propaganda, and their leaders and "allies" view them as pawns to get slaughtered when it's convenient politically for them.

So Hamas leaders stay safe in Qatar, while Gaza's condemned to probably the worst brutality it's ever seen. How do Palestinians in Gaza benefit from Hamas's "rebellion"? Their suffering is only going to end if they get killed in Israel's response. Otherwise it's just more death and destruction for Gaza. All for the sake of subverting normal diplomatic relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel.

If you want to be proud of their latest "uprising," you do you. But don't pretend like Hamas didn't know this would result in a heavy handed response from Israel and that they weren't counting on that sort of response.

Stop projecting these traits to me, I'm not a straw man. 

Calling what has happened, and will escalate now anything less than genocide is sickening. That is pretty much my only point, that and the huge bias I have seen from the western media. Re read my posts. There is no pride, there is no me supporting the attack, there is no me supporting a genocide, only you. 



Waiting on the Israelites to get their final solution to the Palestinian problem.  

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

There is no pride, there is no me supporting the attack, there is no me supporting a genocide, only you. 

LMAO stop licking windows pal. I've said: Israel's commit Apartheid, Israel government is a big reason why the peace process has been such a dismal failure, but also Hamas have done fuck all for Palestinians. And for that, I support genocide? If you go back far enough in this thread you'll even see me saying what Israel's done since it's creation absolutely fits the UN definition of genocide (despite the Palestinian population growing).

Meanwhile you've said:

On 07/10/2023 at 16:16, Devil-Dick Willie said:

A barefaced lie but okay. 

in response to Hamas's attacks with the videos THEY RELEASED showing they were targeting civilians, after I said they'd done this attack all to target civilians.

Then you said: 

15 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I hate you so much rn. I'm 20% wishing Israel go full defcon 1 and fucking wipe iran off the map and populate it, just to hear you sob about the injustice of it all, and ask for western intervention that will never come. You should know better, of all people. The jewish dickriding in this thread is immense. 

You "hate me so much" because you've taken a side in this conflict that goes beyond the creation of Israel (which again... maybe blame the UK and Europe for thinking the Middle East must pay for Europe's centuries of inhumanity against Jews...) - which maybe you can say "oh I was being facetious" but it's still a ridiculously stupid statement.

I've already asked for western intervention in Iran and what's happened instead? The EU falls to its knees when presented with the opportunity to call the IRGC the terrorists that they are because they need sweet precious oil and gas & the US gives the IR $6b. You think I believe the west gives a single solitary fuck about human rights? Especially human rights of middle eastern people? Where's the nearest comedy club? Get up on stage and tell them your jokes next.

Then there's the "Jewish dickriding" comment, to conflate all Jews around the world with the government of Israel. While simultaneously telling me that I should have sympathy for Hamas of all people... because I'm Iranian? You might want to look into how most people in Iran actually feel about Hamas and Hezbollah - and you might want to take a look at how Palestinians (and honestly Arabs generally) feel about Persians. And despite that, I do have immense sympathy for Palestinians. Particularly those in Gaza, who are getting fucked in 2 ways. They've got leaders that don't give a fuck about them. They've got Israel who doesn't give a fuck about them. They're not welcome in Egypt. They've got 0 political freedom and no way to get out of the hell they were born in.

26 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Stop projecting these traits to me, I'm not a straw man. 

Calling what has happened, and will escalate now anything less than genocide is sickening. That is pretty much my only point, that and the huge bias I have seen from the western media. Re read my posts. There is no pride, there is no me supporting the attack, there is no me supporting a genocide, only you. 



Waiting on the Israelites to get their final solution to the Palestinian problem.  

Would I have been in support of the creation of Israel if I was alive back then? No. It was a stupid plan that was put together mostly by people who wouldn't have to deal with the consequences of their actions. But it does exist now - so what's the way for the world to move forward without a genocide for either the Jews or Palestinians living there?

Taking a side in this conflict is being in support of genocide. If you support Palestinians, what do you think that means for the Jews living there? If you support Israelis, what do you think that means for the Arabs living there. I don't take a side in this. Out of the current "sides" there are to take, nobody should be taking any sides. There's no "good" side. Israel's governments are cunts. Hamas are cunts. Hezbollah are cunts. The Palestinian Authority are cunts. Iran's government are cunts. Egypt's government are cunts. Lebanon doesn't really have a functional government, but when they did... they were... cunts.

Take the side of lamenting innocent people dying. Not shrugging your shoulders when people you've decided you don't like (because of whatever reason) get killed while they're just trying to live your lives because you're "supporting the good guys." Why take a side in this conflict between two bad actors that have bad goals? The UN should have sent peacekeeping forces there in 1967 to try to force change and prevent this from being an endless conflict.

[Dr. Gonzo]

There's a livestream of the bombing campaign in Gaza City, the camera pictures aren't all that clear because it's pitch black in a city being blown apart. The audio, though, is horrifying. The sound of bombs, ambulances, and screaming. And then the eerie silence once the screaming stops.

For those of you who've taken a "side" in this - just know that the vast majority of people in Gaza City didn't elect Hamas and if any of them were alive during the elections - there's a good chance they were just toddlers, they can get killed for any public expression against Hamas, and most ordinary people living in Gaza had no say in Hamas conducting this attack. They have nowhere to run to avoid the carnage. They have no choice but to be human shields for Hamas.

And here's El Salvador's half-Palestinian president saying the same things I've said about Hamas: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/el-salvador-president-who-has-palestinian-ancestry-calls-hamas-criminals/ or as @Devil-Dick Willie would call it, here's El Salvador's half-Palestinian president advocating for genocide of his own people.

[Azeem]

A reminder that Palestine was not the first choice place to create Israel. Earlier it was Texas then East Africa Palestine was like the fifth choice. Europe just needed a place to 'dump' the Jews given its own bloody history with them.

If I'm not mistaken, Balfour the guy after whose name is the declaration to allow Jews to settle in Palestine said or wrote something in the footnote that creation of Israel will solve a dilemma of Europe. Sadly it came at the cost of Palestinians. 

[Azeem]

9 hours ago, Stan said:

There's no good guys here, is there? It's just cuntiness on both sides. 

Look at this way

Azov Neo Nazis vs Putin – Definitely cuntiness on both sides

but Ukraine vs Russia – No, Ukraine is being invaded and usurped

Hamas vs IDF – Definitely cuntiness on both sides

but Palestine vs Israel – No, Palestine is being systematically eradicated even if Hamas existed or not. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

24 minutes ago, Beelzebub said:

Look at this way

Azov Neo Nazis vs Putin – Definitely cuntiness on both sides

but Ukraine vs Russia – No, Ukraine is being invaded and usurped

Hamas vs IDF – Definitely cuntiness on both sides

but Palestine vs Israel – No, Palestine is being systematically eradicated even if Hamas existed or not. 

I agree with this take actually.

And I don’t think Palestine leadership, Hamas or the PA, nor the Israeli government since Rabin, has really had any interest in lasting meaningful peace.

[Azeem]

Nikki Haley, Jordan Peterson and many American politicians coming out with ' Give em hell' ' Wipe them out ' 

I'm not going to focus on Western hypocrisy but on the fact that Russian invasion of Ukraine is not even close to being the real brute inhumane invasions world has seen in Syria and looks like we will see in Gaza. 

[Mel81x+]

15 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah, it's going to get pretty ugly, I think. Hamas threatening to execute hostages on camera - while Israel's called up 300,000 reservists to mobilise to go on the offensive. Just to put things into perspective, when Russia mobilised against Ukraine they went in with 200,000. So this is going to be a very heavy handed response from Israel by the looks of things. And that's without taking into account the airstrikes on Gaza that have already happened.

And if it's going to get pretty ugly... when it's already been pretty grotesque... it's hard to predict anything good coming of this.

The real instigators are just watching on now, Israel has made its mind up in my opinion and like you said we just have to wait and see what the final outcome is. There is no "side" to pick here, they're both equally wrong imo and any chance they've both been given over the years since this whole thing started have been squandered or hindered. Saudi Arabia in particular has some hard decisions to make based on the outcome and that is going to be another thing to watch out for because they now can't sit idly by and watch all this happen without picking a side to support. 

[Michael]

7 hours ago, Beelzebub said:

Look at this way

Azov Neo Nazis vs Putin – Definitely cuntiness on both sides

but Ukraine vs Russia – No, Ukraine is being invaded and usurped

Hamas vs IDF – Definitely cuntiness on both sides

but Palestine vs Israel – No, Palestine is being systematically eradicated even if Hamas existed or not. 

The Azov Battalion are not made up of Nazis, that's pure Russian propaganda. Yes, they did have a Nazi problem years ago, but since they became a part of the National Guard, that is no longer the case. There are probably more far right members in the French or British military, than there are in the Azov Battalion. Moreover, why is there never any mention of the far right fascists fighting for the Russians in Ukraine? The Russian Imperial Movement and the Rusich Group, are just two white supremacist groups fighting for Russia in Ukraine. 

[OrangeKhrush]

Israel will lay seige to Gaza like the Romans did to the maccabis. No food, water or electricity, things will get desperate soon.  Eventually the Palastinians will have to out all HAMAS operatives for complete destruction of the terror group.   Palastinians need to be liberated from HAMAS first.

[OrangeKhrush]

3 hours ago, Mel81x said:

The real instigators are just watching on now, Israel has made its mind up in my opinion and like you said we just have to wait and see what the final outcome is. There is no "side" to pick here, they're both equally wrong imo and any chance they've both been given over the years since this whole thing started have been squandered or hindered. Saudi Arabia in particular has some hard decisions to make based on the outcome and that is going to be another thing to watch out for because they now can't sit idly by and watch all this happen without picking a side to support. 

Israel has tried diplomacy, but you can't negotiate with terrorists.  The 7 October attacks may be the final push for Palastinians to rebel against their repressive regimes, stand up to the extremists or be complicit in their misdeeds.

do Israel have the right to institute an offensive, yes they do, they were attacked and some of the things done go well beyond the pale of liberation, terror organisations don't liberate, they just murder.  As terror groups thry operate in civilian areas which means loss of life is inevitable until Palastinians help Israel massacre the fundamentalists.

[Stan]

42 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

stand up to the extremists or be complicit in their misdeeds.

Bit harsh to label them complicit. How do you expect them to stand up?

43 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Israel has tried diplomacy, but you can't negotiate with terrorists. 

Have they? Seems like they've been bombing the shit out of Palestine for years/decades/generations. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

1 hour ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Israel will lay seige to Gaza like the Romans did to the maccabis. No food, water or electricity, things will get desperate soon.  Eventually the Palastinians will have to out all HAMAS operatives for complete destruction of the terror group.   Palastinians need to be liberated from HAMAS first.

Although I don't condone the recent attack, whether Hamas are a terror group or liberation fighters lies in the eye of the beholder. The transitions between legitime armed resistance and terror attacks always were, still are, and will ever be fluid.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Rucksackfranzose

[Mel81x+]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

stand up to the extremists or be complicit in their misdeeds.

So, what you're saying is, it's okay for innocent civilians to be bombarded and killed because they don't have a choice in how their country is being run and that its okay for another country to simply destroy their homes and kill them because one radical group decided to start a war. Alright I'll buy that. 

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

As terror groups they operate in civilian areas which means loss of life is inevitable until Palastinians help Israel massacre the fundamentalists.

If you're a civilian living in a country where all you've ever seen is oppression from a neighbor that has systematically taken more over time, you'd be hard-pressed to side with someone who doesn't have your best interests at heart (talking Israel here). This isn't to say Palestine is without fault here because they've caused a lot of irreparable damage to Israel but this call to war of eradication is the second most asinine thing I've heard during this entire war, the first being that one side simply gets all the support because they got bombed first and have better relations with the western world. That in itself shows how uneducated the masses are about this whole conflict and the terrible history surrounding it. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The 7 October attacks may be the final push for Palastinians to rebel against their repressive regimes, stand up to the extremists or be complicit in their misdeeds.

A reminder that collective punishment is a war crime.

It's incredibly difficult to stand up to a regime like Hamas. People have tried, they end up killed and their family members often get killed too. The people of Gaza are ruled by a terror group that does not give a fuck about them, they're basically held hostage by Hamas. The Palestinians of the West Bank don't have it great, but their situation is infinitely better than the people of Gaza under Hamas. It is not exactly easy to form meaningful resistance that leads to change against a regime like Hamas that has a total grip on power (and ability to exert meaningful violence) in Gaza. The world isn't a comic book, unfortunately... some things are just much easier said than done in the face of incredible oppression.

That it has come to this point I think reflects a massive policy failure of Israel with regards to how they've handled Gaza. Striking Hamas like it is a conventional military has not worked - Hamas uses schools and hospitals as strategic areas to hide military targets. Israel hasn't really cared if it's airstrikes cause collateral damage and have kind of taken the same position you have: "if you don't like getting killed, stand up against these people who'll kill you and your family if you stand up against them" - it's only led to an unbreakable cycle of violence. Now it seems inevitable they are going to send boots on the ground and try to eradicate Hamas. But modern urban warfare is chaotic and brutal - it is going to be a rough time for everyone involved.

Getting rid of Hamas is just the first step though. There needs to be serious work to de-radicalise the population of Gaza that was successfully radicalised from a lifetime of Hamas propaganda consumed, to rebuild Gaza. Otherwise I think this is just going to keep the cycle going, just kicking the can a bit further down the road to worry about at a future date. And then it's not truly a step for a lasting meaningful peace.

French journalists have confirmed reports that Hamas decapitated babies in their attack. Thank god I didn't see any footage of that, because what I did see was bad enough.

[MUFC]

Any truth in this?

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231010-tech-firms-struggle-as-israel-gaza-falsehoods-explode