Klopp v Pep

[Michael]

5 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Like I said, he can be criticised for selecting Bravo, Stones, Mendy, Danilo as targets. But the fact that they end up spending £50m on all of them is a reflection on their negotiating team more than him. Criticise him for transfers all you want, but criticise him for going after players that haven't cut the mustard, or criticise him for not developing John Stones into the next Rio Ferdinand that he was apparently going to be, but if the criticism is how much Man City have spent on players compared to Liverpool, that's on the guys who sign the cheques. 

Guardiola and his staff are obviously the ones who identify the transfer targets that they want. Sure, Pep is not the one who does the negotiating for the players, but he will be aware of what monetary region the players are valued at. He will also have the ultimate say on whether to go through with a particular transfer, unless the upper echelon's at Man City have been overruling him(something that I very much doubt). So I don't think that Pep can escape total responsibility regarding the transfers.

I mean it's not a case of Pep's Man City spending €20 million more or €40 million more or even €100 million more than Klopp during their respective spells at Man City and Liverpool, it's a huge amount more. If Pep targeted some expensive players who didn't make the grade, while Klopp brought in some much cheaper players who developed into world beaters, then they both should be partly judged on that in my opinion. Of course it's not the sole criteria that should be considered, but it is clearly a factor that ought to be taken into account when comparing the work of both respective managers.

[The Artful Dodger]

Guardiola's coaching ability is much underrated, look what he's made Sterling into? A world class player, that's down to Guardiola. He tends to bring the best out of talented players, but perhaps tactically overthinks things in big games. I couldn't pick between them, Klopp has the fact he's picked up clubs from mediocrity to the highest level but Guardiola's methods have resulted in complete dominance, even if Liverpool are now reaching similar levels. I'm not sure if that might just be a feature of the modern game, we're seeing teams win title after title on the continent, often with little competition. Champions used to lose 5-6 games a season, now it's 1 or 2. As much as I like seeing great sides I'd rather have a league where there are twists and turns.

[RandoEFC+]

I don't have any strong feelings about Guardiola. I do think that what Klopp has achieved at Liverpool is already harder than anything Guardiola has had to do at Barcelona, Bayern or Man City, even if Liverpool don't win another major trophy with him as manager.

However, I think a lot of people are over-reacting to one result here. Guardiola's Man City team that won back to back titles was every bit as ground-breaking as the current Liverpool side. Klopp and Liverpool have reached the heights that they've reached partly because Guardiola's City side set the standard for what you need to do if you want to beat them to the league in England. Mancini's and Pellegrini's City sides were nowhere near Guardiola's despite having the facility to buy pretty much any player that they want. 

The glaring failure in Guardiola's time at Man City is the defensive recruitment. He would obviously have been the driving force behind signing Bravo, Stones, Danilo, Mendy etc. Laporte, Ederson and Walker have been good but you could see a mile off the problems that they were going to have when they lost Vincent Kompany and we've just seen on Saturday the most glaring example of it catching up with them. That won't happen every weekend. This isn't new for Guardiola though. People make jokes about Barcelona and Bayern Munich never having to defend and followers of those leagues get up in arms about it but there's an element of truth to it. Guardiola's template, like others have said, is to totally dominate the game and minimise the amount of time you spend defending. The bloke's played midfielders at full back at times throughout his career because he wants that all-action skill set all over the pitch apart from in the very specialist areas. It's not a black and white case of "you can get away with that in La Liga but not in the Premier League" but it is harder to get away with it in England because more teams are more aggressive on the pitch and frankly, more teams have enough comparable talent to Man City to cause them problems if they're in decent form than Barcelona or Bayern ever had to deal with.

I don't know much about this Ruben Dias. Honestly, I'm not convinced he's what they need. This could be a lazy analysis but it often turns out to be true that if he was good enough to solve their defensive issues then Juventus, Real Madrid, PSG etc. would have been heavily linked with him. Laporte came from Bilbao (?) though without much of a transfer saga and he's been very good for them so it could go either way. I would say hopefully he turns out good but I can't say that I really care. Man City have such an odious institution behind them that I have no strong feelings about whether or not I want them to get in Liverpool's way or not.

It is absolutely true that the defenders Man City have at the club now simply have to be successful. I don't know if I buy the criticism of Guardiola giving up on players that haven't worked out and asking for a new one, because that's what most managers do, including Klopp who gave up on Liverpool's centre back options and asked for Van Dijk (granted, I don't remember which ones out of Lovren, Klavan, Matip and Gomez were actually signed by him, if any). The criticism goes back to recruitment in the first place. Klopp hasn't had to do that many times because he and his team got their recruitment time first time, nearly every time. Guardiola and his recruitment team at Man City simply haven't when it comes to goalkeepers and defenders.

[Danny]

2 hours ago, Michael said:

I would never use the term underwhelming to describe Guardiola's spell as Bayern manager, as he clearly did very well domestically with them. However, Bayern have won every Bundesliga League title since Heynckes won the treble with Bayern in 2013. They have won plenty of German Cups during that period as well, so they were a dominant force in Germany with or without Guardiola in charge. The issue is that he failed to maintain the success level that Heynckes achieved in Europe with Bayern. 

That Bayern side was arguably the best side in Europe, yet they failed to reach a single Champions League final under Guardiola. Like it or not, the Champions League has always been the most prestigious and prized trophy for the elite clubs in Europe. 

Part of the reason they’ve won so many titles in a row is because title 2, 3 and 4 of that run was done by Pep

[Michael]

36 minutes ago, Danny said:

Part of the reason they’ve won so many titles in a row is because title 2, 3 and 4 of that run was done by Pep

Or we could say that Bayern just had a world class team over those years that was better than any other squad in Germany. Heynckes if anyone started the reign over that great Bayern side, winning the treble with them(not to mention them reaching the Champions League final the season before under Heynckes, where they only lost on penalties to Chelsea), a feat that could not be matched by any of the subsequent Bayern managers until the great Hans-Dieter Flick came along. It's also not too surprising to me that Heynckes and Flick share very similar approaches to the game when it comes to the tactics that they deploy. They have their teams press, keep possession but also play a much more direct type of football, as opposed to Pep's favourite prioritised passing method of playing the game.

[Danny]

1 minute ago, Michael said:

Or we could say that Bayern just had a world class team over those years that was better than any other squad in Germany. Heynckes if anyone started the reign over that great Bayern side, winning the treble with them(not to mention them reaching the Champions League final the season before under Heynckes, where they only lost on penalties to Chelsea), a feat that could not be matched by any of the subsequent Bayern managers until the great Hans-Dieter Flick came along. It's also not too surprising to me that Heynckes and Flick share very similar approaches to the game when it comes to the tactics that they deploy. They have their teams press, keep possession but also play a much more direct type of football, as opposed to Pep's favourite prioritised passing method of playing the game.

Yeah of course they did and that was due to recruitment and their managers, Pep deserves more credit. 3 league titles and 2 German Cups in 3 years, when he retires people will realise how hard it is for managers to Hoover up silverware as he does

[DeadLinesman]

1 minute ago, Danny said:

Yeah of course they did and that was due to recruitment and their managers, Pep deserves more credit. 3 league titles and 2 German Cups in 3 years, when he retires people will realise how hard it is for managers to Hoover up silverware as he does

Bayern Munich have been hoovering up domestic titles almost every year for the last 25 years. Let’s not get too excited. 

[Danny]

Just now, DeadLinesman said:

Bayern Munich have been hoovering up domestic titles almost every year for the last 25 years. Let’s not get too excited. 

And Pep has Hoovered up silverware everywhere he goes, context that is generally lacking in any discussion about him.

But if we’re picking arbitrary numbers then ten years prior to Pep taking over Bayern only won 5 out of 10 available titles, clearly for a side that wins all the time missing out on 5/10 titles would suggest that it’s not necessarily always that easy to Hoover up silverware in Germany.

[Harry]

On 28/09/2020 at 03:57, Spike said:

Every manager has their down days, Guardiola has won everything and done it several times, now we are questioning his ability? What is next? A thread about how Brian Clough was rubbish because his Forest was relegated? Guardiola is one of the hallmark managers of all time, he along with Luis Aragones revolutionised the sport and it's approach in the late 00s and early 10s. Klopp is a great manager but this argument is boring and pointless. Two fantastic managers, that have vastly different approaches to the game.

Klopp didn't win anything when they were both managing in Germany. And what does 'Klopp' built a side even mean? Let's not pretend he didn't break several transfer records for Liverpool for crying out loud.

Are we? Or are we just comparing him to Klopp?

Pep broke huge ground at Barcelona and created/revived/perfected a style that everyone wanted to imitate. Jurgens Dortmund didn't match that height, but they were the next team after that who came along and really caught my attention in a similar way.

On 28/09/2020 at 03:51, LFCMadLad said:

I know im biased but here is my take...

 

In Germany Pep took over the dominant side, bought all the leagues best players. Klopp built a team and made Pep look like a cunt.

In England Pep took over the dominent club and outspent everyone in the league. Klopp meanwhile built a team and is yet again making Pep look like a cunt.

Who is the best manager?

 

What does the best even mean? Its such a subjective term. I think Pep's accomplishments are greater and more influential. But Jurgen also has massive accomplishments and is currently the more in-form of the two.

Pep is looking like he needs to find some sort of tweak. He's been impressive at City, league perfection achieved, but they have always looked very beatable in the champions league under him, and I think this is a problem, and is definitely becoming a blight on his perfect Resume, as there were similarities with Bayern. After spending a half billion on the defence I feel like the city defence are as shaky as ever, and champions league success is looking pretty distant to Pep now- a decade since he last managed a CL final, despite every year going in with a squad most would place in the top 2 or 3 in the world.. 

 

[LFCMike]

While I think we all have to remember how difficult it is to win a European Cup, I'm sure we can agree that if he was to leave Man City without winning it with the most expensively assembled squad ever, it would be a failure. He's not even come close with them yet.

[Rick]

Pep getting knocked out of the Champions League by Monaco, Lyon & to a lesser extent Spurs with the players and resources of city is nothing short of a disaster. The club brought him in to win that trophy and he has looked a million miles away from it. 
 

Resting players again Lyon last season was criminal. The arrogance of resting players for a game you haven’t even qualified to be in was astounding. 

[Cicero]

Pep takes on more than he can chew given he tries to balance every competition. Which is probably a reason as to why he's done poorly with City in the Champions League. 

[RandoEFC+]

City do seem to be lacking something when it comes to the European Cup though. The pedigree does make a difference I think. You could argue that Liverpool found it easier to win the Champions League than the Premier League because they were used to doing it. City are used to winning the league but not European fixtures. It shouldn't be used as an excuse but you can tell it affects them when they're up against it. Guardiola was supposed to sort it but I don't think he will.

[DeadLinesman]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

And Pep has Hoovered up silverware everywhere he goes, context that is generally lacking in any discussion about him.

But if we’re picking arbitrary numbers then ten years prior to Pep taking over Bayern only won 5 out of 10 available titles, clearly for a side that wins all the time missing out on 5/10 titles would suggest that it’s not necessarily always that easy to Hoover up silverware in Germany.

This has to be a joke . Must be difficult only winning the league every other season. And 6 DFB Pokals.........

[Danny]

48 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

This has to be a joke . Must be difficult only winning the league every other season. And 6 DFB Pokals.........

Point being that its clearly not been possible for them to Hoover up league titles seeing as Werder, Wolfsburg, Stuttgart and Dortmund proved. They’ve just won 8 in a row now, that is hoovering up titles, they hadn’t done that in their recent history when Pep took over, Pep helped set the groundwork for this domination.

Jesus Christ 

[Rick]

39 minutes ago, Danny said:

Point being that its clearly not been possible for them to Hoover up league titles seeing as Werder, Wolfsburg, Stuttgart and Dortmund proved. They’ve just won 8 in a row now, that is hoovering up titles, they hadn’t done that in their recent history when Pep took over, Pep helped set the groundwork for this domination.

Jesus Christ 

I think you’re really grasping at straws. To say that Bayern Munich have been anything other than dominant in that league is a bit mad. 5 out of ten is still dominating, plus you sprinkle in many domestic cups and a champions league win in that ten years. 

[The Artful Dodger]

The problem with Bayern Munich as an example is that they deliberately look to decapitate their opponents, and not just grow themselves. By the time Guardiola took over they had already surpassed Dortmund by destabilising them by buying arguably their best player at the time. Competition since then has been pretty dismal. That's why Europe is looked at as the barometer for them.

[Danny]

23 minutes ago, Rick said:

I think you’re really grasping at straws. To say that Bayern Munich have been anything other than dominant in that league is a bit mad. 5 out of ten is still dominating, plus you sprinkle in many domestic cups and a champions league win in that ten years. 

I never said they haven’t been dominant, clearly they were as they won the most titles within that period, was pointing out that prior to Pep turning up Bayern were not guaranteed silverware, in the same ten year period United won 6 league titles and lost out to Arsenal and Chelsea, they won one more title than Bayern did in that period, but you wouldn’t put that down to it being easy or dominant, you’d put it down to good management. Bayern could go on and win 10 titles in a decade now and that is partially down to Pep.

Its just a reoccurring theme lacking any sort of critical thinking, Guardiola is seen as a failure, or overrated, or whatever because he’s not winning or getting to CL finals now. But he’s smashed the granny out of every domestic competition he’s been in. The owners may have wanted him in to win a CL, but anyone who knows about football knows that’s not always possible to just go out and win a CL, lets not forget in this very debate which manager has won the competition more, yet is being slated more than the other. Look at the money (yes I’m aware it’s not as much as Guardiola, but he still spent a lot) Fergie spent at United, consistent seasons spending £50-£70m back when the transfer record was at around £30m. Yet he only won two Champions League titles in his life, but somehow it’s barely ever mentioned when talking about how he was as a manager.

There is a Messi-like agenda against Pep in this country, the “can he do it in the Prem” nonsense, Peps first season in England was full of people giving it the hes been found out rhetoric. There’s nothing wrong with critiquing his failings, his European record at City has been abysmal. But when people start waffling about how he’s not all that when he’s set a points record and won every domestic competition in the same season...behave please.

[Spike]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

Are we? Or are we just comparing him to Klopp?

Pep broke huge ground at Barcelona and created/revived/perfected a style that everyone wanted to imitate. Jurgens Dortmund didn't match that height, but they were the next team after that who came along and really caught my attention in a similar way.

 

 

What daya mean 'are we'? The very existence of the thread is proof to that, there is a further four more pages of that line of thought.

[Spike]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

I never said they haven’t been dominant, clearly they were as they won the most titles within that period, was pointing out that prior to Pep turning up Bayern were not guaranteed silverware, in the same ten year period United won 6 league titles and lost out to Arsenal and Chelsea, they won one more title than Bayern did in that period, but you wouldn’t put that down to it being easy or dominant, you’d put it down to good management. Bayern could go on and win 10 titles in a decade now and that is partially down to Pep.

Its just a reoccurring theme lacking any sort of critical thinking, Guardiola is seen as a failure, or overrated, or whatever because he’s not winning or getting to CL finals now. But he’s smashed the granny out of every domestic competition he’s been in. The owners may have wanted him in to win a CL, but anyone who knows about football knows that’s not always possible to just go out and win a CL, lets not forget in this very debate which manager has won the competition more, yet is being slated more than the other. Look at the money (yes I’m aware it’s not as much as Guardiola, but he still spent a lot) Fergie spent at United, consistent seasons spending £50-£70m back when the transfer record was at around £30m. Yet he only won two Champions League titles in his life, but somehow it’s barely ever mentioned when talking about how he was as a manager.

There is a Messi-like agenda against Pep in this country, the “can he do it in the Prem” nonsense, Peps first season in England was full of people giving it the hes been found out rhetoric. There’s nothing wrong with critiquing his failings, his European record at City has been abysmal. But when people start waffling about how he’s not all that when he’s set a points record and won every domestic competition in the same season...behave please.

For some reason on one hand it is 'the magic of the cup' and on the other hand it is a resounding failure. People are not consistent with their views on cup competitions, why is that only Guardiola is deeply questioned for not winning the CL? It is the most difficult cup to win in club football, and he has won it twice already. What do people want from Guardiola, exactly? Every game to be 10-0? HE has made records in every country he has worked , including the first manager to win the FA Cup, League  Cup, and League title in the same season. Not even Fergie did that!

Guardiola is a ballsy manager, he makes huge risks and they sometimes backfire, and he never compromises his ideals as a coach, never resorts to the easy solution and always goes for what he wants not what he should do necessarily. That stubbornness ends some managers, look at Marcelo Biesla, Andre Villas-Boas, and now even Frank Lampard, but Guardiola has consistently delivered success without ever changing his idealism.

[Michael]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

I never said they haven’t been dominant, clearly they were as they won the most titles within that period, was pointing out that prior to Pep turning up Bayern were not guaranteed silverware, in the same ten year period United won 6 league titles and lost out to Arsenal and Chelsea, they won one more title than Bayern did in that period, but you wouldn’t put that down to it being easy or dominant, you’d put it down to good management. Bayern could go on and win 10 titles in a decade now and that is partially down to Pep.

Its just a reoccurring theme lacking any sort of critical thinking, Guardiola is seen as a failure, or overrated, or whatever because he’s not winning or getting to CL finals now. But he’s smashed the granny out of every domestic competition he’s been in. The owners may have wanted him in to win a CL, but anyone who knows about football knows that’s not always possible to just go out and win a CL, lets not forget in this very debate which manager has won the competition more, yet is being slated more than the other. Look at the money (yes I’m aware it’s not as much as Guardiola, but he still spent a lot) Fergie spent at United, consistent seasons spending £50-£70m back when the transfer record was at around £30m. Yet he only won two Champions League titles in his life, but somehow it’s barely ever mentioned when talking about how he was as a manager.

There is a Messi-like agenda against Pep in this country, the “can he do it in the Prem” nonsense, Peps first season in England was full of people giving it the hes been found out rhetoric. There’s nothing wrong with critiquing his failings, his European record at City has been abysmal. But when people start waffling about how he’s not all that when he’s set a points record and won every domestic competition in the same season...behave please.

Yes, I mean they only won the treble under Heynckes the year before Pep arrived. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I literally always expect Bayern Munich to be one of the best sides in Germany. It's like expecting Juventus to do well in Italy (other than when they were relegated due to being cunty cheats)... and even then, we (we being most people) expected them back up and competing shortly after promotion.

[DeadLinesman]

2 hours ago, Michael said:

Yes, I mean they only won the treble under Heynckes the year before Pep arrived. 

 

C’mon mate. You can’t go round spouting facts like that. Pep made Bayern. They were nothing without him! Forget 3 decades of near dominance! It’s the Pep years that have made them so successful now!!!

[Burning Gold]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

For some reason on one hand it is 'the magic of the cup' and on the other hand it is a resounding failure. People are not consistent with their views on cup competitions, why is that only Guardiola is deeply questioned for not winning the CL? It is the most difficult cup to win in club football, and he has won it twice already. What do people want from Guardiola, exactly? Every game to be 10-0? HE has made records in every country he has worked , including the first manager to win the FA Cup, League  Cup, and League title in the same season. Not even Fergie did that!

Guardiola is a ballsy manager, he makes huge risks and they sometimes backfire, and he never compromises his ideals as a coach, never resorts to the easy solution and always goes for what he wants not what he should do necessarily. That stubbornness ends some managers, look at Marcelo Biesla, Andre Villas-Boas, and now even Frank Lampard, but Guardiola has consistently delivered success without ever changing his idealism.

Does doing weird shit like going 3-4-3 against Lyon, or dropping Sterling to play Gundogan on the right vs Liverpool, count as compromising his ideals?

[Spike]

9 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

Does doing weird shit like going 3-4-3 against Lyon, or dropping Sterling to play Gundogan on the right vs Liverpool, count as compromising his ideals?

What are you talking about? You say that as if he set up like Diego Simeone with in a 4-4-2 with a deep defensive block looking to attacking once every 18minutes on the counter. Formation does not equal strategy or tactic, it is just the dissemination of the two.