Brighton 1-1 Liverpool - Saturday 28th November, 2020

[Mel81x+]

VAR can still be removed its not been around long enough to warrant its cementing on the sport. Sadly its removal will reintroduce the very reason it is here in the first place, clubs feeling like they got cheated due to poor refereeing decisions. I know this has been said before but its implementation and whoever made the decision on that implementation is where the problem lies. Football as a sport has general guidelines not rules and that's really the first domino that needs to fall in order for some consistency across the board. You cannot use the word 'interpretation' when it comes to making decisions with tool assistance because then you're not solving a problem you're making it worse as is evident from games that have suffered due to this. 

If they really want to make this thing work I say remove the hand-ball assistance and definitely remove in-the-box incident assistance. Start simple, decide offsides and DO NOT let the ref on the pitch have any say in how that works or the final ruling. If a goal happens due to an offside that falls into the realm of VAR but interfering in other aspects shouldn't be allowed until it is clear how the tool needs to be used to effectively referee games. Taking away all of the unnecessary complexities and simplifying it with the long-term goal to encompass all the things it does today will go a long long way to making it work across the board in a football game at any level. 

[Guest]

Like I've said before. The real issue with var is the fans. Fans in other sports aren't so self entitled. They don't complain about every decision that goes against them. They are more patient. Var doesn't work in football i dont think but it is the fans fault.  That's just my opinion  anyway. 

[LFCMike]

34 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Ignoring the whole VAR thing, I did question at the time why he took Salah off so early.

Surely the right call would have been Mane for Minamino at the time? Get the game safe first. You'd think on the break as well as the game draws to the end Salah would be huge on the counter.

At 1-0, it is always a risk trying to conserve minutes for players and I know it was unfortunate, but can't help but feel he shot himself in the foot there.

Klopp explained bringing Salah off in his post match. Said he only trained once after returning from having Covid then played in the week then another game today. He's just being careful with him

[LFCMadLad]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

So let me guess liverpool had a var decision go against them and so now we need to get rid of it and change the rules to suit them. 

Fantastic contribution, well done.

Idiot 

[Dan+]

2 hours ago, LFCMadLad said:

Would anybody be disappointed if VAR was fucked off completely? Geniune question. 

It clearly doesn't work in football and as a result, the game is being ruined. 

I'll be forever disappointed if it doesn't. The cons outweigh the pros but a staggering amount.

[N U F C]

Klopp's interview is an absolute embarrassment, fair play to Des Kelly for firing back at him.

[Dan+]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

In its current form I don't think anyone would complain but I'd sooner see pretty much everyone who has been associated with its implementation in the Premier League fucked off and get some of the people who have implemented technology successfully in sports like rugby and tennis come and have a go before we decide there's no method that will allow it to improve officiating.

I've personally seen nothing to change my opinion that the way they've tried to put new rules in that they think can be implemented now there are video replays, along with the lack of consistency and competence of the officials are the bigger problems.

Having more replays should lead to better decision making, there's no two ways about that. It's the human decision making behind when and how to use the technology that's pissing everyone off so I'd try some different humans.

For what it's worth I agree with that too - the people behind it need a total overhaul, the implementation has made the league a bit of a joke. Do think it's a bit of a myth that it's any good in Europe though. I've liked our Europa League games without it a lot more - despite the other night conceding an offside goal.

I do however firmly believe it will never properly work.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, LFCMadLad said:

Would anybody be disappointed if VAR was fucked off completely? Geniune question. 

It clearly doesn't work in football and as a result, the game is being ruined. 

I’d be delighted if they fucked VAR off forever

[Rick]

15 minutes ago, N U F C said:

Klopp's interview is an absolute embarrassment, fair play to Des Kelly for firing back at him.

How exactly? What did he say that was incorrect? Des Kelly is a pillock and incited a lot of the responses by being a cocky prick. 

[N U F C]

12 minutes ago, Rick said:

How exactly? What did he say that was incorrect? Des Kelly is a pillock and incited a lot of the responses by being a cocky prick. 

Why is he blaming Chris Wilder?

Why would Wilder do anything that he thinks is going to benefit other teams?

[Rick]

7 minutes ago, N U F C said:

Why is he blaming Chris Wilder?

Why would Wilder do anything that he thinks is going to benefit other teams?

Christ Wilder is allowed to spout of about other managers and teams being selfish though? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, N U F C said:

Why is he blaming Chris Wilder?

Why would Wilder do anything that he thinks is going to benefit other teams?

Tbf it must be so annoying when he’s trying to explain “this avoids injury” meanwhile everyone talks about other sides having an advantage.

Meanwhile those clubs that have no European football and few international players get an actual massive advantage and this season especially.

Idk why he specifically blamed Chris Wilder, must have been something said between the two that seriously pissed Klopp off.

Either way, I can’t blame Klopp for being annoyed. Getting robbed by a referee and then having to look at and speak to Des Kelly is absurd.

I’d have sent my assistant out to not answer any questions about anything

[LFCMike]

8 minutes ago, N U F C said:

Why is he blaming Chris Wilder?

Why would Wilder do anything that he thinks is going to benefit other teams?

Wilder keeps mentioning Klopp is 'selfish' (I think everything he's said on this, even going back to last season when he backed up a direct title rival, proves otherwise) which is why Klopp mentioned his name today.

[N U F C]

8 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Wilder keeps mentioning Klopp is 'selfish' (I think everything he's said on this, even going back to last season when he backed up a direct title rival, proves otherwise) which is why Klopp mentioned his name today.

I've never came across any quotes from Wilder saying that but fair enough if he has. Just thought it was a bit strange to blame Wilder, I'm sure if the roles were reversed Klopp wouldn't be doing anything to benefit the bigger teams.

[LFCMike]

1 minute ago, N U F C said:

I've never came across any quotes from Wilder saying that but fair enough if he has. Just thought it was a bit strange to blame Wilder, I'm sure if the roles were reversed Klopp wouldn't be doing anything to benefit the bigger teams.

He hasn't shut up this week, Wilder!

It won't just benefit the bigger sides though. Let's wait until everyone is playing twice a week from next month and see how the likes of Wilder cope then

[N U F C]

21 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

He hasn't shut up this week, Wilder!

It won't just benefit the bigger sides though. Let's wait until everyone is playing twice a week from next month and see how the likes of Wilder cope then

Of course it's an advantage to the big clubs.

 

[Smiley Culture]

Klopp’s going to get a load of stick for coming across a bit arsey and the real point, how many games elite players play and the turnaround time between games, will be missed because of the way he’s portraying his message at the minute. The frustration is clear to see and people are just going to think he’s a bit of a dick, as they did with Sir Alex. 

[Burning Gold]

2 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Like I've said before. The real issue with var is the fans. Fans in other sports aren't so self entitled. They don't complain about every decision that goes against them. They are more patient. Var doesn't work in football i dont think but it is the fans fault.  That's just my opinion  anyway. 

I don't think it's the fans' fault because I don't think anything is the fans' fault. The entire reason we're here is for the fans, be they matchgoing or otherwise, so the idea that any issue with the 'product' is their fault is just completely nonsensical to me. It's like the CEO of a failing business blaming the customers for not buying his products, like Trump blaming the voters for not voting for him. It's just the complete wrong way around

That said... I do think, and I think I've said it before, there's a problem with the level of discourse around VAR. The media are allowed to kick off about the concept of it non-stop (often from a position of misunderstanding) instead of doing any actual analysis. There was one a few weeks ago, I think on final score, where a goal was correctly disallowed for handball and all both pundits could offer was "I don't know how that's handball" and that was considered acceptable punditry. I repeat, it was absolutely the correct decision. Today we have a situation where a goal was incorrectly disallowed for offside (I'd love someone to look at the image I've posted and tell me how I'm wrong) but no one's noticed because they're so keen to kick off about VAR in general

If you don't like the concept of VAR, that's fine, but you should be able to put that to one side and offer objective analysis. The failure to do that means the vast majority of criticism can be easily ignored for the ludditery and sour grapes it is. And then nothing changes, and nothing gets better

[LFCMike]

14 minutes ago, N U F C said:

Of course it's an advantage to the big clubs.

 

Not denying the bigger sides have better quality options in their squads. I think the sides not in Europe would also benefit from five subs when they're going to have more two game weeks between December and February than they're used to. 

[DeadLinesman]

3 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Like I've said before. The real issue with var is the fans. Fans in other sports aren't so self entitled. They don't complain about every decision that goes against them. They are more patient. Var doesn't work in football i dont think but it is the fans fault.  That's just my opinion  anyway. 

And like it’s been proven time and time again, it really isn’t. I support Warrington and Minnesota Vikings in respective sports. We’re the most entitled cunts in the world and we’ve won fuck all recently. I’ve been to NFL games in both the UK and US. I go most Warrington home games. I’ve seen the reality. All fans in almost any sport moan when things don’t go their way. They’re not patient at all.
 

Why do fans argue with umpires in Baseball? And refs in Basketball? You’ve said umpteen times that this is exclusive to football when the reality just isn’t that at all. How are football fans at fault when the Premier League and its referees have admitted they get stuff wrong? How is a fan at fault for the rules? How is a fan at fault for interpretation? 

[Burning Gold]

1 hour ago, N U F C said:

Of course it's an advantage to the big clubs.

 

I'm not sure it is. Liverpool have been hit pretty fucking hard on the injury front, but we're still able to largely field professional standard footballers. Teams like Sheffield United on the other hand are one or two injuries away from having to play a 38 year old Phil Jagielka or 34 year old Billy Sharp. Not only that, but a bad, injury hit season for the big clubs means they miss out on a trophy and maybe European football; an injury hit season for a Sheffield United means relegation

Also, even if you accept the premise that it helps big clubs, why is that more important than player safety?

[N U F C]

11 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

I'm not sure it is. Liverpool have been hit pretty fucking hard on the injury front, but we're still able to largely field professional standard footballers. Teams like Sheffield United on the other hand are one or two injuries away from having to play a 38 year old Phil Jagielka or 34 year old Billy Sharp. Not only that, but a bad, injury hit season for the big clubs means they miss out on a trophy and maybe European football; an injury hit season for a Sheffield United means relegation

Also, even if you accept the premise that it helps big clubs, why is that more important than player safety?

I get what you're saying to an extent.

Perhaps not Liverpool with the injuries they've got at the moment but when you look at the benches of City, Chelsea etc some weeks the quality is crazy. It's such a huge advantage to let them make 5 changes.

[Stan]

Now that we're getting some key players back, I'm all for 5 subs as we approach a very busy part of the season .

Only seen the Salah offside thing and I think he's level, therefore onside. Agree with @Burning Gold that I can't fathom how the right foot is the furthest body part left. Surely there's part of his torso further left?

5 hours ago, Lucas said:

I don't like it in terms of it effecting the spectacle of the game but I do think it can work and it has on many occasions. It's just how we go about tightening it up.

The offsides need clearing up, as does the whole handball thing. If we can stop taking random measurements with all these lines and say stick with where the foot is, I think gradually people will come round to it. The consistency of these decisions is the issue. 

As for penalties, that will always come down to interpretation. It's just that one ref see's as a foul, others don't presently. So ultimately, maybe we need to look at developing referee's further.

Regarding referee standards, this has been said for years, to be fair. Way before VAR came in. It starts at the top and Mike Riley at PGMOL. He has to go as while referees arguably haven't got worse, they certainly haven't got better, in my opinion. Only one or two could be classed as of a very good/decent standard and that's poor considering the stature of the league.

VAR has muddied the waters somewhat and while I think it can be a good thing for football, there's just far too much confusion and ambiguity about the rules. Maybe that's as a result of VAR coming in or not - that can be argued all day and night. It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario - refs weren't that great to start off with, the handball rules weren't clear either, VAR comes in and confuses the issue even more so how can the referees get better without the rules being clear? 

The concept of VAR is good - the execution of it not so much.

4 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Like I've said before. The real issue with var is the fans. Fans in other sports aren't so self entitled. They don't complain about every decision that goes against them. They are more patient. Var doesn't work in football i dont think but it is the fans fault.  That's just my opinion  anyway. 

I don't believe this is the case. It can't be the fans' fault for how technology is implemented. Far too many contentious calls which either 1) should be positively overturned/confirmed by VAR or 2) which are decided by referees on pitch, then you have some referees who clearly find it difficult to overturn decisions. Not that I'm picking on Man Utd but the two Fernandes incidents really stick out like a sore thumb - the Villa one and most recently the one against West Brom. Purely simple decisions that should have been simply overturned. That has nothing to do with the fans.

Like above, VAR has potential to work in football but if it's not being used correctly, it'll never work. You'd like to think technology will advance and progress and equally, you'd like to think the Premier League will harness it as such. Right now it's just a mess. As a fan of VAR, it's hard to accept it in its current form. I'm not a fan of the decisions any more where they're so minute like the Salah one, where it's scrutinised in to far too much detail. We're talking the width of a blade of grass. I don't think this was ever the intention of how to use VAR. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I agree with @Stan agreeing with me. This is first and foremost a referee competence issue.

Mike Riley was a man who as a referee, at best, was shite and controversial (and I won’t even comment on what I think a worse case view of him would be). Having someone like that in charge of all referees in England means that we will have officials that are shite and controversial.

And it’s no coincidence we’ve only got one decent standard ref in Michael Oliver, and that every week there at least 1-2 (but often many more) moments of absolute contention in what the officials have done in any given match. The shite rolls downhill and Mike Riley’s the turd rolling down the hill.

I also agree that VAR’s current interpretation often defies common sense and isn’t being used the way I’d have imagined it was intended. But I’m not sure if it’s really fixable at this moment and I’d absolutely advocate binning it off at least until we’ve got a few more than 1 decent referee.

But I wouldn’t shed a tear if VAR went away forever. Good idea, but clearly humanity is far too stupid to figure out how to make it work with football right now - and there’s bigger issues for us to focus our brainpower on than video review in football.

[Harry]

Can't believe the impact of VAR in this game. Would've been 3-0 without it.

The more I reflect on VAR the more I move towards the camp that would rather see it removed than kept in its current form. (Improve VAR is still the best option)

What does it currently do tho? Four things.

1. It takes clear offsides that could have been missed by the referee out of the equation. Good.

2. It takes a whole bunch of super close open play goals that anyone watching would describe as being onside, and says "well actually when you put a microscope on it that's technically offside". Bad.

3. It picks up clear and obvious fouls in the penalty area missed by the referee. Good.

4. It picks up lots of incidental minor contact. When you review penalty box scraps with a microscope there is always little bits and pieces. This results in a much higher number of penalties awarded. Bad.

As I see it the system has eliminated the infrequent bad decisions which used to exist, and instead delivered a much higher number of controversial decisions which amount to more open play goals disallowed and more penalties awarded. That is just not what I want to see. It turns football into more of a sticklers game.

I don't know why I never felt the technology implemented in cricket or tennis to be a problem, but I really feel the technology implementation in football is so flawed its hard to believe it's not deliberate.