Everton 1-4 Liverpool - Wednesday 1st December, 2021

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I think Benitez will be on his way before long. Who comes in though?

Nobody good, I suspect.

[RandoEFC+]

Not angry, not even disappointed, I just don't care. Totally predictable performance and outcome against a side who routinely go and do that against mid-table/bottom half fodder, which is what we are, every week. No reason to expect any different because it's a derby. Anyone who thinks "the form boom goes out the window" in the derby hasn't been paying attention for a good 20 years or so. In isolation you can shrug games like this and City off but not when you go throwing in shite losses to Wolves, Watford and Brentford amidst the more inevitable humpings. 8 games without a win now. No manager can outrun that form regardless of how bad of a mess he inherited.

Fans can't even be arsed to boo properly at the end. Most of them just given up like me. Hard to bring yourself to care when you see the same players that have now spent a good one-third to half of their top level career picking up a pay packet you could only dream of whole jogging around getting 4-5 different managers sacked.

At least if we had a style of play or some exciting youngsters starting to make their careers there'd be something to get behind but right now there just isn't. No relationship with the manager, very few likeable or relatable players, nothing coming from the academy, no chance of signings in January and even if there were, we just expect the recruitment from upstairs to make things even worse anyway.

[Danny]

Think it’s incredibly reductive to boil what Trent does down to being a full back, of course that’s the most natural way to describe someone who starts on the right hand side of a back four but the reason you have players like Fabinho and Henderson in the team is to reduce the amount of defensive responsibilities that Trent has. He is more than anything a playmaker that occupies the right hand side of the pitch, similar to Ozil at Real Madrid, just with more defensive duties.

Looking at that goal of course you’d want him more alive to the danger Gray is possessing but look at the Liverpool defence and midfield. VVD and Matic become massively disjointed and lose the defensive live with Robertson as VVD steps forward. All 3 midfielders are pushed further ahead with Richarlison in the gap between defence and midfield causing VVD to push. Structurally the issue is the midfield there cos if Fabinho drops then VVD and Matip can stretch to cover Gray and Rondon.

 

[RandoEFC+]

About time. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Who got their hands on the ball more during the match, Pickford or Coleman?

[LFCMike]

20 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I think Benitez will be on his way before long. Who comes in though?

I think he might just survive that performance and result but they'll need to start picking up wins soon

[Danny]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Who got their hands on the ball more during the match, Pickford or Coleman?

Leave Seamus out of this 

[Smiley Culture]

The thing is, Everton sacking Benitez achieves little. Whoever is selecting the managers at Everton since Moshiri bought the club, Ancelotti aside (and even then, he didn’t really achieve that much, a 10th place finish isn’t really good enough), have been pretty woeful and uninspiring choices and don’t appear to be as part of some form of tangible strategy at Everton. Even as part of short-term decisions, I’m not sure what the appointment of Benitez is expected to achieve beyond survival and survival given the expectations at Everton amongst their fans, which aren’t particularly unrealistic, and the fact they’ve amassed a squad in recent years that must have cost £100m as a very bottom figure, is just not really good enough from their decision makers. 

 

[RandoEFC+]

Several reports of sack the board shouts and Kenwright out etc. after the game is good. I think our fans generally realise that they might be angry at the manager for presiding over these performances but very little is achieved by sacking another one and nobody can suggest who would do any better. 

[Reluctant Striker]

I wouldn't suggest Everton will end up like my club, but I often see similarities. During my lifetime Villa went from legit title contenders, consistent top half side, to kind of just being 1 of 7 ever present sides in the Premier League (with the Super League 6, minus City, plus Everton) being the greatest claim to fame. And that Villa vs Everton was & still just about is, the most played top flight fixture.

And Everton do just kind of seem stuck in a place of being the only Premier League ever present, not invited to the escape attempt.

Is it all just about finances? Is some of it how some sides adapted better to globalisation? I think there's a case Man United perhaps are behind on globalisation compared to Liverpool & Chelsea.

[Dr. Gonzo]

10 minutes ago, Reluctant Striker said:

I wouldn't suggest Everton will end up like my club, but I often see similarities. During my lifetime Villa went from legit title contenders, consistent top half side, to kind of just being 1 of 7 ever present sides in the Premier League (with the Super League 6, minus City, plus Everton) being the greatest claim to fame. And that Villa vs Everton was & still just about is, the most played top flight fixture.

And Everton do just kind of seem stuck in a place of being the only ever Premier League ever present, not invited to the escape attempt.

Is it all just about finances? Is some of it how some sides adapted better to globalisation? I think there's a case Man United perhaps are behind on globalisation compared to Liverpool & Chelsea.

I don't think any club is ahead of Manchester United in terms of making their club a global commodity. Maybe Barcelona and Real Madrid, but I don't think any club is ahead of them in England. They're sort of like the the blueprint every club has used as it's tried to sell itself to other countries - and it's why they make so much money and have so much money to spend (even though they've not spent well compared to rivals in recent seasons, despite spending a lot). Chelsea and Liverpool have spent a lot of time and money playing catch-up to United in this regard.

And for Everton, I don't think it's finances. Before this summer, they spent quite a bit of money - I think it's over £100m (or around that) before Rafa came in. A big issue is they've spent a lot of money to overhaul their squad... but they've not actually overhauled their squad.

It's mismanagement of the club that goes above the manager, tbh. I think the last time they had a manager and the board singing off the same hymn sheet, it was under David Moyes. But since then, a lot has happened - shitloads of different managers, including a new owner with a lot of money coming in and the appointment of a highly rated director of football in Marcel Brand.

But something @RandoEFC's mentioned is there's a lack of transparency as to what the fuck is going on at Everton above the manager. All that money spent with really very little to show for it - but we don't know whether the decisions behind signing particular players are a manager's fault, Brands' fault or whether Moshiri is going above everyone's heads and making decisions he maybe should be leaving to the people he's hired to make football decisions for him.

I think short term thinking has hurt Everton big time in recent years and what Everton actually need is some serious long term planning. It feels like there's no vision for what would be considered positive growth for Everton in the next 5-10 years. And it seems before last season, Moshiri thought spending a lot of money would be enough to take a club to the "next level" and I think he's finding that by itself, spending money is just spending money.

And a lot of clubs have issues with depth in this league, but Everton really struggle when just a couple of important players are missing.

[Lucas]

On 29/11/2021 at 17:24, RandoEFC said:

I'm genuinely going out to avoid watching this.

I bet you wish you had now.

[Rick]

On 29/11/2021 at 17:43, Rick said:

I think we win this very convincingly. If it’s anything but a win against this side with the rut they are in, I’ll be gutted. 
 

1-4

Boom.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Liverpool have now won more Merseyside derbies at Goodison than Everton have.

[The Artful Dodger]

52 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Liverpool have now won more Merseyside derbies at Goodison than Everton have.

Ever or just in the Prem era? Ever would be mad.

[LFCMike]

 

[RandoEFC+]

8 hours ago, Lucas said:

I bet you wish you had now.

I genuinely tried. I think the time their youth team knocked us out of the FA Cup was a blessing in disguise though as I don't think it can get more embarrassing than that, not even last night. I've never been less arsed about Liverpool to be honest. Some clubs talk about their rivals becoming irrelevant to them because they're so much shitter. I don't think we've become irrelevant to Liverpool because it clearly meant something to them last night. No wonder, they've got their house in order so they have time to be bothered about the fact we got 4 points off them last season and injured a couple of their players in this fixture. Liverpool feel irrelevant to us now though. Just another team totally out of reach. Not that many years ago you used to be able to have a debate about a combined eleven and you could argue Baines, Lukaku, Fellaini, Jagielka, whoever, would make it in even if 7-8 of the players were theirs. Not anymore. This isn't the "rivalry" that I grew up with. There's no hope to be dashed in this fixture at the moment. I was totally numb watching that game last night. We don't have the luxury of getting angry about the derby because we have much bigger problems, and not in the "bigger fish to fry" sense.

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Ever or just in the Prem era? Ever would be mad.

Ever wouldn't even surprise me. The "Kenwright" era dates back almost three decades now and we haven't beaten them at home in 11 years or something. "In our lifetime" feels like a small proportion of all-time history but it's become quite a large chunk now.

[Inverted]

I think the weird thing is that there is no inherent reason why the successful teams need to be totally out of Everton's reach. 

When you strip Everton back to the material facts, they've got a big support and they've got resources which most top flight clubs across Europe would look at as being borderline-superclub levels.

For example, I'd guess that the difference between Celtic and Everton, resources wise, is much bigger proportionally than the difference between Everton and Liverpool. And it's not like Celtic are some super efficiently-run club like Salzburg or Ajax. 

But I'd still expect the game to be competitive. I'd probably expect to lose because yeah financially the odds are against us, but I wouldn't think of it as a write-off just because their budget is a few times bigger. 

 

[RandoEFC+]

11 minutes ago, Inverted said:

I think the weird thing is that there is no inherent reason why the successful teams need to be totally out of Everton's reach. 

When you strip Everton back to the material facts, they've got a big support and they've got resources which most top flight clubs across Europe would look at as being borderline-superclub levels.

For example, I'd guess that the difference between Celtic and Everton, resources wise, is much bigger proportionally than the difference between Everton and Liverpool. And it's not like Celtic are some super efficiently-run club like Salzburg or Ajax. 

But I'd still expect the game to be competitive. I'd probably expect to lose because yeah financially the odds are against us, but I wouldn't think of it as a write-off just because their budget is a few times bigger. 

 

None of this is incorrect, but also none of it is remotely relevant to the current form of the team and the 'material facts' of the players each team has at their disposal. This game shouldn't be a write-off, no, but football isn't played on a banker's Excel spreadsheet. We've been fucking up for years and the net result is that we have a squad that's lucky to get out of games against Man City and Liverpool losing by less than three goals.

[Lucas]

4 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I genuinely tried. I think the time their youth team knocked us out of the FA Cup was a blessing in disguise though as I don't think it can get more embarrassing than that, not even last night. I've never been less arsed about Liverpool to be honest. Some clubs talk about their rivals becoming irrelevant to them because they're so much shitter. I don't think we've become irrelevant to Liverpool because it clearly meant something to them last night. No wonder, they've got their house in order so they have time to be bothered about the fact we got 4 points off them last season and injured a couple of their players in this fixture. Liverpool feel irrelevant to us now though. Just another team totally out of reach. Not that many years ago you used to be able to have a debate about a combined eleven and you could argue Baines, Lukaku, Fellaini, Jagielka, whoever, would make it in even if 7-8 of the players were theirs. Not anymore. This isn't the "rivalry" that I grew up with. There's no hope to be dashed in this fixture at the moment. I was totally numb watching that game last night. We don't have the luxury of getting angry about the derby because we have much bigger problems, and not in the "bigger fish to fry" sense.

I'd agree, it reminds me very much like the Manchester derby in the 90's when City often lost and were perceived as a bottom half struggler, whilst their neighbours cleaned up.

Your club is extremely toxic right now. Reminds me of us under the Bates era. Horrible to see really. Club is in an absolute state.

I've read a lot on Everton this morning actually and this tweet is one that has resonated with me

The club needs a deep clean from top to bottom.

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Ever or just in the Prem era? Ever would be mad.

Ever

[RandoEFC+]

2 hours ago, Lucas said:

I'd agree, it reminds me very much like the Manchester derby in the 90's when City often lost and were perceived as a bottom half struggler, whilst their neighbours cleaned up.

Your club is extremely toxic right now. Reminds me of us under the Bates era. Horrible to see really. Club is in an absolute state.

I've read a lot on Everton this morning actually and this tweet is one that has resonated with me

The club needs a deep clean from top to bottom.

Yeah I saw that one too. We've had other players in a very similar situation, Bolasie, Besic, Kenny, Niasse. Players so far off the standard required that they'd spent over a year out of the team yet they'd been given contracts long enough to still be around, and lucrative enough to leave them without an incentive to move on.

We were heading in the right direction in the first Brands-Silva transfer window when we signed Richarlison, Digne, Mina, Gbamin who were all in their early 20s and apart from Gbamin who has been ruined by a freak run of injuries, those players remain some of our best assets. The following year was a mess though because the club didn't deliver a right back to replace Coleman and ended up with Sidibe on loan, Iwobi has been an expensive mistake so far and Delph has been a total misfire too. Since then Moshiri has employed Ancelotti and Benitez who signed Allan, Rodriguez, Rondon, Townsend, etc. Admittedly our hands were tied this summer but the signings have flown in the face of what Brands started in his first summer here and I honestly don't know what he does anymore. He wasn't behind those signings and if he was the one who pushed for Doucoure, Godfrey and Demarai Gray who are legitimately good transfers, he deserves praise for that. Like I said, though, the lack of transparency from the club makes it hard to know whether those are his or Ancelotti's or Benitez or the chief scout or what. Probably deliberate so the fans can't focus their ire on the source of the real problems.

[LFCMike]

Interesting to know what Brands meant by 'is it only the players?' in that exchange with the fan by the directors box @RandoEFC 

[LFCMike]

'You can't do that anymore' 

 

[Whiskey]

8 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

'You can't do that anymore' 

 

Fucking hell