Russia and Ukraine

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Long story short it’s about NATO and Ukraine joining NATO. NATO is effectively ran by the US, and a military alliance. If UKraine joins NATO it means the yanks can put troops on his border, Putin is not having it. Think Cuban middle crisis 2.0 except Kennedy had a brain and this senile old man is a front for the real people in power over in Washington the warmongering defence contractors. 
 

He’s not justified invading a sovereign nation but he’s been provoked by the impeding tanks on his lawn. Mexico for example can’t do fuck all with American approval, Russia wants the same from Belarus/Ukraine etc 

I suppose it makes sense from their point or view. If scotland were to separate from the uk and they wanted to form an alliance with an enemy if ours we wouldn't be happy about it. Not that I'm justifying what he has done I'm just trying to see both points of view. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Guest

[Michael]

2 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I think what I have said has been misinterpreted. Obviously this will get more media coverage because it is two large European  countries at war.

I'm just pointing out that some people wouldn't care if an African country invaded another one. Because they dont care about African people. 

Well yeah, there are narrow minded idiots out there, but I do think if a war in Africa took place on a large scale, there would be a lot of empathy around the world. I remember as a kid, there was a lot of outcry and empathy shown towards the genocide that happened in Rwanda. The world cared about what happened in Rwanda, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen etc. It's not just European countries that we care about. No one cares about the views of a minority of ignorant and bigoted people, or at least we shouldn't in my modest opinion.

[RandoEFC+]

31 minutes ago, Spike said:

I wasn’t because I had been drinking. You seem to think that I have an issue with defining what war crimes are, I don’t. I have an issue with the hypocrisy of it, the nature of war and the defining of the crimes are mutually exclusive there can be and never will be a war that is without war crimes, for both combatants. You keep bringing up bombing hospitals or whatever but that isn’t the only crime that can be and will be committed. The first hypocrisy is the loser being the only one punished, even then they are largely not, the second hypocrisy is they are charged by those guilty of the same atrocities, sometimes using a kangaroo court - another war crime.  Countries try to actively subvert the ICC and even if they didn’t who is holding them accountable? How many crimes are unreported and unpunished? It is nice to say things like ‘rape is a war crime’ but it still happens en masse, an estimated 200,000 German women were raped by American GIs alone, we know that is evil, they know that is evil but that is by definition a war crime, and what is the result? War creates a culture of violence and impunity. I will never stray from the idea the war is an implicit breaking of all war crimes. 

All war is a crime.

Fair enough.

[Fairy In Boots]

1 minute ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I suppose it makes sense from their point or view. If scotland were to separate from the uk and they wanted to form an alliance with an enemy if ours we wouldn't be happy about it 

More like if in 1939 Rep of Ireland would have allowed Nazi Germany to use its military bases. Of course the US aren’t the Nazi’s and the Russians aren’t us but would we have stood by? 
There’s plenty to take Putin to task over, this ironically until he went in arguably wasn’t one of them, in fairness Russia have a legitimate security concern, the west hasn’t listened after 8 years he’s had enough and escalated it. It’s why I said endgame is regime change/ no nato deal. I doubt very much he wants to get tied down occupying Ukraine long term, maybe just the Donbass area.

 

Crimea  was because it’s their warm sea port the Russian navy was there to suddenly have your Black Sea fleet in a pro NATO country was unacceptable to them. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Michael said:

Well yeah, there are narrow minded idiots out there, but I do think if a war in Africa took place on a large scale, there would be a lot of empathy around the world. I remember as a kid, there was a lot of outcry and empathy shown towards the genocide that happened in Rwanda. The world cared about what happened in Rwanda, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen etc. It's not just European countries that we care about. No one cares about the views of a minority of ignorant and bigoted people, or at least we shouldn't in my modest opinion.

Unfortunately mate I  don't think they are as such as a minority as we would like to think. They are a minority but there are a lot of people who unfortunately dont care about African countries. 

[Azeem]

Whenever this is over Europe should lessen it's security dependency on US and draft it's own working relationship with Russia. 

[Michael]

People in the centrally located city of Dnipro are volunteering to fight in their droves. Similar things are happening all over Ukraine. The Russians are not having things easy at all as it stands. Ukrainian media are claiming that 4,000 Russian military personnel have been killed, while the Russians are claiming that their own Russian casualties are only a handful, the truth is probably somewhere in-between. Nonetheless, it looks like the Ukrainian people are coming together to give the invaders one hell of a fight, in order to protect their motherland.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Michael

[Honey Honey]

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not because of NATO, rather it is precisely for the reason Ukraine wanted to be in NATO in the first place.

The poking the Russian bear is a Nigel Farage hot take, common today on the extreme political wings in Britain and the contrarian writers. Desperate to inflict some sort of score against our own politics. Everything must be framed as to how "the west" (an outdated cold war label and thought process) is in the wrong here. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Honey Honey said:

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not because of NATO, rather it is precisely for the reason Ukraine wanted to be in NATO in the first place.

The poking the Russian bear is a Nigel Farage hot take, common today on the extreme political wings in Britain and the contrarian writers. Desperate to inflict some sort of score against our own politics. Everything must be framed as to how "the west" (an outdated cold war label and thought process) is in the wrong here. 

How do you see the conflict? I'm not that educated on it I'm trying to learn. Why do feel putin invaded Ukraine and his justifications of it

[RandoEFC+]

30 minutes ago, Honey Honey said:

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not because of NATO, rather it is precisely for the reason Ukraine wanted to be in NATO in the first place.

The poking the Russian bear is a Nigel Farage hot take, common today on the extreme political wings in Britain and the contrarian writers. Desperate to inflict some sort of score against our own politics. Everything must be framed as to how "the west" (an outdated cold war label and thought process) is in the wrong here. 

Thank you.

[Waylander]

I'm not surprised Ukraine is a flashpoint in following the last US election it was clear, Trump equals pressure on China and Biden represents Ukraine 'warming up'.

We will never know for sure what prompted the Russians to move so decidedly after the latest shooting match between the Ukrainians and Russian militants in Eastern Ukraine.

Some claim Zelensky mentioned getting nukes and that was the red flag.

Personally felt at the time before the invasion Johnson's rhetoric was way OTT about escalations and further escalations almost as though they are trying to provoke the Russians.

Well it certainly provoked them to go all the way. 

 

 

[Reluctant Striker]

36 minutes ago, Honey Honey said:

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not because of NATO, rather it is precisely for the reason Ukraine wanted to be in NATO in the first place.

The poking the Russian bear is a Nigel Farage hot take, common today on the extreme political wings in Britain and the contrarian writers. Desperate to inflict some sort of score against our own politics. Everything must be framed as to how "the west" (an outdated cold war label and thought process) is in the wrong here. 

Perhaps a slight mix of the 2?

One of Putin's widely stated views long before this week was that he saw the break up of the USSR as a big mistake. So yes, many of the former states not keen for the reunion would seek NATO, European allies as strong as possible. It seems a perfectly natural & obvious path for them to be following.

On the other hand, as others were suggesting toward earlier, if a historic (and current?) enemy of England was recruiting all the other 'home' nations of Britain & the UK, I'm sure there would be many being triggered by that. And yes, almost certainly the Farage, far right Tory type people & those that listen to them & their working class translators most keenly.

The real test would be whether Putin's Russia would ever align itself to a new non-NATO defence agreement. He does say that Russia sets the red lines on NATO. I do doubt he would move from that stance on any entity. NATO, EU, any new entity yet to be conceived. And whether the current NATO nations could contemplate making it clear they would welcome Russia itself as an ally as equally as their former Union nations.

[Machado]

Joning NATO would be the final hurdle in the westernization of Ukraine and possible the end of Putin's expansionist aspirations for a long, long time. However, what Putin fears is not NATO missiles in Ukraine, but a safe haven for democratic values on his doorstep. Forget NATO, If Russia were a free and democratic society, this war wouldn't be happening.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Machado

[Michael]

Maybe this is a bit of an insight as to the morale on the ground in Ukraine. The Russians don't seem so organised or as up for it as the galvanised Ukrainians perhaps appear to be.

Watch as this Ukrainian in his car, jokes with the Russians by offering to tow their tank that has run out of fuel back to Russia.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Michael

[Machado]

14 hours ago, Aladdin said:

Why?

Let's forget politics for a second, it's about humanity. I don't like the idea that Russia can invade whatever non-NATO country it wishes and the world will do nothing but watch. I don't like the idea that children have to wake up to air raid sirens because of some paperwork.

"With great power comes great responsibility" sounds great in spider man doesn't it. I'm not saying Europe or NATO have to police the world, but they have "flirted" with Ukriane without having intentions of helping in case this happened.

[Fairy In Boots]

1 hour ago, Michael said:

People in the centrally located city of Dnipro are volunteering to fight in their droves. Similar things are happening all over Ukraine. The Russians are not having things easy at all as it stands. Ukrainian media are claiming that 4,000 Russian military personnel have been killed, while the Russians are claiming that their own Russian casualties are only a handful, the truth is probably somewhere in-between. Nonetheless, it looks like the Ukrainian people are coming together to give the invaders one hell of a fight, in order to protect their motherland.

Both sides propaganda arms are in full swing the ghost of Kiev is fake snopes disproved that today but already t-shirts are being sold 

1 hour ago, Honey Honey said:

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not because of NATO, rather it is precisely for the reason Ukraine wanted to be in NATO in the first place.

The poking the Russian bear is a Nigel Farage hot take, common today on the extreme political wings in Britain and the contrarian writers. Desperate to inflict some sort of score against our own politics. Everything must be framed as to how "the west" (an outdated cold war label and thought process) is in the wrong here. 

Lol because Farage used the term poking the bear you’ve chucked him in this, it’s precisely about Nato, Putin has said as much for 8-9 years. As soon as The pro Russian government collapsed due to protests when they aligned themselves with Russia over the west (still a valid term) he took action. He’s an autocratic ruler with a huge border and the expansion of nato concerns him because it weakens Russian influence and means a larger border would have to be defended which is poking a paranoid man even more.

German and France were reluctant about Ukrainian membership of NATO back in 2008 because they saw this coming. Nato already border them in 5 countries now a huge land border to the south is encircling him, are we surprised he’s going in to foster regime change with a puppet similar to what he has with Belarus?

Edited February 26, 2022 by Fairy In Boots

[Guest]

I do think @Fairy In Boots has a point. I'm not justifying the invasion but as I said if scotland wanted to form a coalition with an enemy of England I think alot of people would support an invasion of scotland. It may not be right but people dont always think like that. I'm sure Putin wants Russia to have more power as well but I do think it's possible he made the decision because of the worry of Ukraine potentually joining  nato . From what I have read anyway as I said I'm not an expert on the politics of it all.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

4 hours ago, Tommy said:

Uhhhhh. Anyone wanna tell em that GPS exists? 

[Fairy In Boots]

3 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Uhhhhh. Anyone wanna tell em that GPS exists? 

I’ve not even fact checked it, if you really think on the first day of an invasion a civil service sector can rename street signs across the land to say fuck off you’re having a laugh. Most probably tried to get out, I have a Ukrainian work colleague with a 21 year old brother at university in Kiev who has a Slovak mother, he tried to get out border was closed to men 18-60. So among all this contractors went out and changed street signs? 
 

Even more ridiculous than the Klitcho’s posing in army garb in snow when it’s not snowing in Kiev at present 

[Honey Honey]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

How do you see the conflict? I'm not that educated on it I'm trying to learn. Why do feel putin invaded Ukraine and his justifications of it

Russian nationalism, the racialist type of which Putin subscribes to, doesn't see Ukraine as an independent country, it considers it as an extension of Russia, part of Russia, ethnically Russian. Particularly parts of Ukraine. It considers Russia to have been robbed of Ukraine. For 20 years Ukraine has been attacked by various means, from tanks to trade wars by the Kremlin all to prevent Ukraine from breaking away from their influence and control. Strong forces in Ukrainian politics would like to join the European Union. Putin won't stand for it. This is all why Ukraine flirts with joining NATO. Hanging over Ukraine's expression of freedom is the stench of Russian nationalism and the threat of Russian tanks if Ukraine dare do what the Kremlin doesn't like.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Honey Honey said:

Russian nationalism, the racialist type of which Putin subscribes to, doesn't see Ukraine as an independent country, it considers it as an extension of Russia, part of Russia, ethnically Russian. Particularly parts of Ukraine. It considers Russia to have been robbed of Ukraine. For 20 years Ukraine has been attacked by various means, from tanks to trade wars by the Kremlin all to prevent Ukraine from breaking away from their influence and control. Strong forces in Ukrainian politics would like to join the European Union. Putin won't stand for it. This is all why Ukraine flirts with joining NATO. Hanging over Ukraine's expression of freedom is the stench of Russian nationalism and the threat of Russian tanks if Ukraine dare do what the Kremlin doesn't like.

I get that part and I'm sure Putin does want Ukraine to be part of russia. However dont you feel that to a certain extent that you can understand Putin not wanting Ukraine to join nato when its enemy can put troops on their border ?

[Honey Honey]

23 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I get that part and I'm sure Putin does want Ukraine to be part of russia. However dont you feel that to a certain extent that you can understand Putin not wanting Ukraine to join nato when its enemy can put troops on their border ?

No. NATO is a defence agreement. It doesn't station troops capable of an offence. 

A Ukrainian membership of NATO brings an end to the ease with which Russia can drive its tanks into Ukraine when it wants. It is symbolic of the end of imperial Russia.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Honey Honey said:

No. NATO is a defence agreement. It doesn't station troops capable of an offence. 

A Ukrainian membership of NATO brings an end to the ease with which Russia can drive its tanks into Ukraine when it wants. It is symbolic of the end of imperial Russia.

When you say capable of an offence you mean there wouldn't be enough to mount an attack? 

[Tommy]

Even Elon Musk joined the cause. 

 

[Honey Honey]

13 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

When you say capable of an offence you mean there wouldn't be enough to mount an attack? 

Not a land invasion. A point to fire missiles or send in the air force sure, but you don't need to be in Ukraine to have missiles in range of Moscow. You'd need the unanimous approval of 30 nations for an offensive just to fire a weapon. Not happening. Especially given the majority will do absolutely anything they can think of before attacking anyone.

As stupid as Putin often sounds, and maybe he is as stupid as say someone like Trump, but I doubt among the whole lot of the hierarchy that they are all deluded idiots when it comes to NATO. Not impossible I suppose. 

NATO are solely a threat to Russian nationalists ambitions and probably their pride, aww bless. Tossers.

Given that early Putin Russia probably could have joined NATO and may have considered it, I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years after he's gone it is back on the cards.