Russia and Ukraine

[Beelzebub]

An Italian University banned teaching a Russian author from 1800s but then backtracked after the response. Sanity prevailed 

[MUFC]

3 hours ago, Waylander said:

Having marched against the attack on Iraq close to 20 years ago and talking with members of the Respect group and Anti-War coalition  I am pretty sure 100s of millions probably wanted Bush to meet a quick and ugly demise as they bombed the water and energy infrastructure of Iraq.

They even used tanks to bomb the hotel where Western journalists were staying. 

The UN staff on the ground were also being attacked.

It was purely regime change yet they underestimated other players on the ground perhaps Russia will too.

Doesn't make this right yet seems to be an ugly cycle by which ever force thinks they can get away with it and normal people in the wrong place pay the price. 

 

Was the March in the summer of 2001? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Aladdin said:

An Italian University banned teaching a Russian author from 1800s but then backtracked after the response. Sanity prevailed 

This desire some have to want to punish anything with a hint of Russian-ness for this is weird tbh.

Yes illegal wars and war crimes are bad, nobody needs to convince me.

But banning literature because it comes from Russia, centuries before this, is fucking stupid. Nothing more than absolutely fucking stupid.

It’s also been weird/amusing seeing people and countries that are typically very anti-refugee be very quick to offer their support for refugees. I’d say it’s curious, but it’s not - it’s just been interesting seeing how this crisis has let the mask slip for so many people.

[Dr. Gonzo]

25 minutes ago, Stan said:

Just read that primary school children in Russia were arrested for laying flowers and placards stating 'no to war' outside the Ukrainian embassy in Moscow. 

Fucked up from Russia. 

Isn’t that pretty expected, even though they’re just kids?

It’s an opposition view in wartime Russia, while they’re also trying not to use the words war or invasion publicly. Then young kids start making peace protests outside their enemy’s embassy?

No way an autocratic government allows a protest like that during war time, even if they are just children.

Yeah its fucked up - authoritarian governments ARE fucked up

[nudge+]

4 hours ago, Rick said:

Most of these soldiers probably don’t agree with being there, and it’s very sad that they are losing their lives for something they don’t believe in, but they signed up to the military knowing they are pawns in somebody’s game. 

It's important to keep in mind that Russia has mandatory military service though, and a significant part of Russian troops in Ukraine are conscripts who didn't sign up for military service voluntarily. 

[Rick]

8 minutes ago, nudge said:

It's important to keep in mind that Russia has mandatory military service though, and a significant part of Russian troops in Ukraine are conscripts who didn't sign up for military service voluntarily. 

That is a good point. 

[Viva la FCB+]

34 minutes ago, nudge said:

It's important to keep in mind that Russia has mandatory military service though, and a significant part of Russian troops in Ukraine are conscripts who didn't sign up for military service voluntarily. 

I was just going to say this. Its really sad to see. I just watched a video of a captive Russian soldier looks like hes in his teens/early twenties getting tea and fed and crying on the phone he was given by the Ukranians to talk to his mom. I havent verified but the claim is none of the Russian soldiers have phones and I could totally see that. 

[Waylander]

1 hour ago, MUFC said:

Was the March in the summer of 2001? 

2003.

Here's an interesting thing I was working in the Southern Hemisphere and a young woman I was sitting near was in a religious group (Christian) she mentioned to me about the terrible regime for women's rights in Afghanistan. I thought that was kind of strange as Afghanistan was a poor country.

I asked what her Church said about women's rights in Saudi Arabia. 

Two weeks later I was back in the UK having lunch as 9/11 unfolded live on tv. 

[MUFC]

26 minutes ago, Waylander said:

2003.

Here's an interesting thing I was working in the Southern Hemisphere and a young woman I was sitting near was in a religious group (Christian) she mentioned to me about the terrible regime for women's rights in Afghanistan. I thought that was kind of strange as Afghanistan was a poor country.

I asked what her Church said about women's rights in Saudi Arabia. 

Two weeks later I was back in the UK having lunch as 9/11 unfolded live on tv. 

I might have the date wrong. Did it end on Hyde Park?

[Guest]

On 01/03/2022 at 16:34, Stan said:

Is it?

In that sense, we can't ever complain about anything again?

What I mean is it directly caused by the war. Maybe cuntish is a strong word but I'm not comfortable moaning about petrol price increases  when it is being caused by a war 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, nudge said:

It's important to keep in mind that Russia has mandatory military service though, and a significant part of Russian troops in Ukraine are conscripts who didn't sign up for military service voluntarily. 

And many of them were told they were there as peacekeepers who'd be welcomed as liberators - not troops sent to invade. And some of the rations that captured troops have been found with are 20 years old and past their expiration date. I think low morale is a big reason Russia hasn't made gains as quickly as Putin would have hoped - and I think it's because a lot of kids are being forced to be invaders against their will.

People want western media and even things like wikipedia blocked off from Russia, but I don't see the point in that... that just cuts Russians off from having sources outside the narrative state media is pushing. It seems counterintuitive to block Russians from having access to information from around the world if the goal is to get more of them to understand they're the aggressors in this war and if we want Russians to speak out against the war.

And Russia already wants to block Wikipedia's entries on the invasion because Wikipedia's covering reports on how many civilian casualties there have been... so blocking Russians from Wikipedia access or sources that explain the invasion and the aftermath of the invasion... seems to play nicely into Putin's hands.

[Waylander]

17 minutes ago, MUFC said:

I might have the date wrong. Did it end on Hyde Park?

Yes think it did.

Though was the march before the big one that apparently was a million  though numbers disputed.

[Waylander]

I see Putin is being portrayed like Hitler and him and his people threatened with war crimes and he is calling the West the Empire of lies.

The Empire of Lies is clever as we can all see duplicitous actions by governments from time to time, despite from generation you are from.

Oliver Stone was saying social protests movements were being funded and using social media to generate support for protests and once big enough the police would be needed and then mercenaries would shoot protesters and the police.The social media protesters would blame the government and the police would think a coup attempt was underway. 

About a 100 were killed in 2014 to overthrow the elected government in Ukraine and move from a pro-Russian govt to swing back to pro the West and joining the EU.

Now I recall similar things happening in Syria with shooters being at the later protests and then a police crackdown and the slide towards war as foreign groups of mercenaries attacked from all sides. Assad was criticised as being a dictator and then stories started to come out from the Northern Sunni areas where local guys decided to form their own protective militias and later then the 'Islamic' mercs would come in and assassinate them, very reminiscent of Orwell's time in the Spanish Civil War with Soviet Russia attacking other anti-fascist forces.

With the Arab spring, we supported some yet not others especially if they were oil rich states.

The rumour mill is Putin has thwarted the West's desire for a new Afghanistan in Ukraine and are drawing up plans now for Myanmar though some senior people want action or a going away present delivered to the Russians.

There is also the US carrier fleet in the Med heading towards the East Mediterrean. Now Russia has a naval base in Syria and the Black Sea can only be access though the Hellespont which is Turkish territory. Turkey has been playing both sides in Syria and buying the Russian missile defence system so has history on both sides.

There is a major risk of escalation here if Turkey tries to stop say Russia sending ships through to confront the US fleet. 

Now perhaps the US might not go to the Hellespont and will just hang around to flex it muscles. 

 

[MUFC]

48 minutes ago, Waylander said:

Yes think it did.

Though was the march before the big one that apparently was a million  though numbers disputed.

I think I was there. Long March before Hyde Park. Was a hot day, so many people in flip flops.

[Dr. Gonzo]

So in the aftermath of this invasion, Finland and Sweden want to join NATO & Ukraine and Georgia have submitted applications to join the EU

[RandoEFC+]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

So in the aftermath of this invasion, Finland and Sweden want to join NATO & Ukraine and Georgia have submitted applications to join the EU

In this as well, Putin's actions are a total contradiction. Years of trying to intimidate these direct neighbours into staying out of these organisations, then saying thanks but I'm going to go and fuck Ukraine up anyway. Why wouldn't you apply to join at this point if you're Georgia, Ukraine, etc? Putin's invasion of Ukraine has provided them with Exhibit A of why they need to join with the rest of Europe, after spending years using all of the intimidation, manipulation, politics, dark money, etc. at his disposal to discourage it.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

10 hours ago, Rick said:

Who the fuck on here is celebrating anybody dying? Nobody here is “cheering on” Ukraine to kill every Russian soldier. We would all be more than happy for the fighting to stop completely. 
 

BUT, if you’re trying to tell me that there’s no difference in soldier getting killed in conflict and civilians being bombed in their homes then you are off your head. Most of these soldiers probably don’t agree with being there, and it’s very sad that they are losing their lives for something they don’t believe in, but they signed up to the military knowing they are pawns in somebody’s game. 
 

I’m not rooting for anybody to be killed, other than Putin himself. That fucking oaf needs a bullet in his brain before he starts bombing every cunt. 

So Russia, who has compulsory conscription, has an army of willing, nationalist soldiers? No. They have an army that's a mix of conscripts, desperate lower class who needed the job and willing soldiers. You numbskull. 


Edit, I see @nudge has already told you this and you've since acknowledged it.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Devil-Dick Willie

[RandoEFC+]

Just now, Devil-Dick Willie said:

So Russia, who has compulsory conscription, has an army of willing, nationalist soldiers? No. They have an army that's a mix of conscripts, desperate lower class who needed the job and willing soldiers. You numbskull. 

It's also worth mentioning that they'll have been told like the rest of the public that they're liberating the oppressed Ukrainian people from their neo-Nazi government.

You could just point stuff like this out calmly and politely like nudge managed to do instead of insulting everyone who doesn't know quite as much stuff as you. Admittedly, it depends whether your ambition is actually to help others understand the things you seem to think they should understand, or whether it's to carry on being all edgy and superior about the whole thing...

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 minute ago, RondónEFC said:

It's also worth mentioning that they'll have been told like the rest of the public that they're liberating the oppressed Ukrainian people from their neo-Nazi government.

You could just point stuff like this out calmly and politely like nudge managed to do instead of insulting everyone who doesn't know quite as much stuff as you. Admittedly, it depends whether your ambition is actually to help others understand the things you seem to think they should understand, or whether it's to carry on being all edgy and superior about the whole thing...

Not superior, just really frustrated. A lot of posts just have an energy around them that creeps towards celebration of dead Ruskis. 

[6666]

2 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Not superior, just really frustrated. A lot of posts just have an energy around them that creeps towards celebration of dead Ruskis. 

People like to follow the narrative being provided by the media.

[Rick]

23 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

So Russia, who has compulsory conscription, has an army of willing, nationalist soldiers? No. They have an army that's a mix of conscripts, desperate lower class who needed the job and willing soldiers. You numbskull. 


Edit, I see @nudge has already told you this and you've since acknowledged it.

Take back the numbskull comment right this minute. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

11 minutes ago, Rick said:

Take back the numbskull comment right this minute. 

I'm off my head for saying Russian soldiers don't deserve to die more or less than anyone else, but you're not a numbskull for saying they do, due to your not knowing about conscription nor considering the socioeconomic factors that contribute to most people joining the military? 

I don't want to get all playground but that seems a little unfair. 

[Rick]

‘‘Twas a joke. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

5 minutes ago, Rick said:

‘‘Twas a joke. 

Then ya caught me. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/03/2/7327539/

Dunno how good of a source Pravda is - looks like it's currently owned by the Communist Party of the Russian Federation which makes me feel like this: 

But according to this report, "Ukraine has seized Russian military plans concerning the war against Ukraine from the 810th Brigade of the battalion tactical group of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet Marines. These documents were approved on 18 January."

These plans indicate that the war is (or was) meant to last just 15 days and they anticipated they'd have control of Ukraine by now. I think considering the slow progress the Russian army has made, with the high casualties due to Ukraine's stronger than anticipated resistance to invasion... coupled with the western backing Ukraine will be receiving for the entirety of the conflict & the implosion of Russia's economy post-invasion... there's no way this war just lasts 15 days unless Putin gives the order to pack it all in.