UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[RandoEFC+]

20 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Just took this online test. Apparently I'm 88% liberal democrat, 87% green party. 75% labour and 48% conservative. Although it is a bit open to interpretation 

Saw this and decided to go and do one myself.

Unsurprising really. I usually get closer to Green than Labour.

[Guest]

@RandoEFC I was glad I was less than 50% conservative. At the moment I wouldn't vote for them at any level. Even if I thought they were the best party in a local election I wouldn't vote for them because of the direction they are going in. As bad as boris is if moggy was the next primeminister I would consider leaving the country if things got bad.  Although I probably will never vote for them unless I felt they would do a better job with poverty or something like that 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Guest

[Dr. Gonzo]

Found it! Looks about right, I suppose

[RandoEFC+]

It's hard to know how accurate these things are at the moment. Labour and Lib Dems have had leadership changes since they last published a manifesto. 

[Guest]

On 02/05/2021 at 05:49, McAzeem said:

Well at least Mbache derailed topics to funny things like guinea pigs & Guerrero 

Unique will get banned soon I'm pretty sure of that.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

I see "woke" has made an appearance now. Surprised it took this long. 

The ironic thing is that I think unique has a traveller background. Woke and left wingers are the people who stick up for them where as right wingers hate them 

[RandoEFC+]

Just now, Gunnersauraus said:

The ironic thing is that I think unique has a traveller background. Woke and left wingers are the people who stick up for them where as right wingers hate them 

That in itself is a stereotype though, people see the world differently in a litany of different ways for different and valid reasons.

I still dislike the use of terms like left wing and right wing. Conservatism has plenty of redeeming qualities, the value of family, meritocracy and opportunity. It's important to acknowledge that. The current Conservative government in the UK are more focussed on other things though, such as convincing people like UNIQUE that people who would like to see asylum seekers given help in a country as rich as ours and want to have a Prime Minister with a shred of honesty and integrity about him are somehow self-interested, unpatriotic and "woke" which has been weaponised as the 2020s equivalent of 'political correctness gone mad'.

I don't know if it's just British people or whether it's a human condition but we seem to take basically no convincing to turn on each other and blame each other for all of our problems. It's pretty tedious but you can see how it appeals to people.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Unique will get banned soon I'm pretty sure of that.

Imo, we should always give people the benefit of the doubt and I'm not sure saying things like that is particularly helpful.

On this part of the politics forum, he should be free to let us know his political views. And as long as it doesn't devolve into anything that could be considered outright bigoted - I think it's fine, even if lots of people disagree with him. Being able to debate our political viewpoints is a good thing, even if we don't agree. He's come from a different forum where the political views there are a lot more uniform and a lot more right-wing than our forum. Here we've got more left-wing people, like me, @Inverted, @RandoEFC, we've got a lot of people who would probably identify as "moderates" - and without @Fairy In Boots active anymore, we've not got many conservatives to debate on here. Closest thing is probably @Cicero  - and I think he'd say "fuck off, I'm pretty fucking moderate"

As long as he's not crossing the pretty clear red lines I think we have on this forum, he's free to debate without fear of getting banned.

We don't all need to agree about everything all the time. Especially when you consider we're talking about the UK - for the last 10 odd years we've been run into the ground by Tories that have been pretty successful in continually getting elected, while the UK's other big party has sort of stagnated and become less relevant.

Even though I fundamentally disagree with Tories on a shitload of issues, I still think it's important to hear their side and try to understand how they think. At the end of the day we're all really on the same side and just want the UK to be a bit better than it is right now. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

I still dislike the use of terms like left wing and right wing.

Lol whoops, you posted right before I posted and called you fairly left-wing 

 

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

I don't know if it's just British people or whether it's a human condition but we seem to take basically no convincing to turn on each other and blame each other for all of our problems. It's pretty tedious but you can see how it appeals to people.

It's definitely not just us. You can see it happening in shitloads of countries all over the world, and I'm not sure it's a particularly new thing.

[Cicero]

Pretty moderate but with regards to social issues I’m more conservative. 

[Danny]

Johnson is flailing cunt, Lib Dems are as useful as dog shit on a shoe and Labour have a leader that will only question something the Tories do once they’re 100% certain the public will be on their side.

Literally if you don’t rim Johnson/the Tories what is even the point in voting other than being able to shout iF yOu DoNt VoTe YoU dOnT gEt A sAy

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

Johnson is flailing cunt, Lib Dems are as useful as dog shit on a shoe and Labour have a leader that will only question something the Tories do once they’re 100% certain the public will be on their side.

Literally if you don’t rim Johnson/the Tories what is even the point in voting other than being able to shout iF yOu DoNt VoTe YoU dOnT gEt A sAy

Tbh that’s probably the kind of attitude that keeps Tories in power, even when they’re not all that popular.

Labour are just completely inept - I do think the media plays a part in tearing down all Labour leaders after Tony Blair… but you couple the ineptitude in messaging & an unfriendly media and it’s no coincidence that they always struggle. The party’s tendency to always fall into infighting and NEVER having a strong opinion on any of the UK’s most pressing issues until they have an idea of how most people feel, also just leave them looking weak. Tories have infighting and then come election time they close ranks - Labour just keep having internal power struggles, while seeming like pandering to swing voters.

It really is a bit shit because I’d never vote Tory and if I’ve learned anything about my voting preferences is I’ll never vote for Lib Dems again after that Clegg-Cameron coalition. Never felt more betrayed by a political party and in recent years I think they’re just dishonest Tories.

But not voting basically guarantees Tories continuing their free run at seeing how badly they can fuck things up before more people notice.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Cicero said:

Pretty moderate but with regards to social issues I’m more conservative. 

Can you explain a bit more mate?

[Stan]

14 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Can you explain a bit more mate?

@Cicero is basically the one who puts up the spikes in porches or alleyways - he takes 'Homeless Prevention' to another level... 

[RandoEFC+]

Three polls out this morning, all pointing to landslide Tory wins over Labour in the three key battlegrounds - Hartlepool by-election, Tees Valley mayor and West Midlands mayor. Not good reading for Keir Starmer, if these polls are anything like accurate it points to those who voted for Brexit Party last time mostly flocking to the Tories, he's lost a bit of support on the 'left' but those voters aren't going to the Conservatives and even with them still on board, it isn't enough to make the difference. He's also failing to make any significant inroads in the much-discussed Brexit/Red Wall vote so it's not like he's gaining much of 'the right/centre' to make up for the (often overstated but still existent) losses on the 'left'.

However, the national polls have shifted in Labour's favour in the past week, with the exception of YouGov. Could lead to council gains in other parts of the country. It also looks like Anas Sarwar is going down as a relative success in Scotland and might see them beat the Tories to 2nd place there but it's far from a given. Some solace if those things come to pass but it's not enough really. If Labour do take a pounding as expected in those three key battlegrounds and the smaller success in other parts of the country isn't apparent, Starmer could come under a lot of pressure from within the party.

Sadly, a lot of prominent pro-Labour commentators are too obsessed with using poor Labour results in these elections to somehow vindicate Jeremy Corbyn's train crash election performance, while the most vocal critics of Corbyn are using the damage he did to the party's reputation as an excuse to cover up what will be a failure on the current leadership's part to make any significant gains this week. Both 'wings' of the party need to get their shit together and focus on making an offer to the public that will get them elected.

The biggest problem is winning back the Northern working class vote. These voters feel betrayed by Labour and see the Conservatives as the party who delivered on their priorities because of Brexit. We might disagree with those sentiments but that's how they feel. They also haven't forgotten some of the comments by Remain Labour MPs at the time about Farage and other pro-Brexit figures being 'foul racists' and whatever else. I don't know what Labour can offer this vital constituency because they don't really care about what Corbyn was fighting for and Starmer's attempts to move the conversation on from Brexit haven't won them over yet either. Andy Burnham is the only figurehead that comes to mind as someone who gives off the impression of standing up for your ordinary man or woman whilst also having solid leadership qualities but there's not much else there.

It's a long road ahead for Labour and anyone who wants to see a progressive government in this country. I don't think it's impossible that Starmer can build a coalition in time but he needs to show some progress and poor results on Thursday will only undermine his authority. The problem is that it doesn't look as if that road is going to feel any shorter than it did 18 months ago when the Conservatives won a crushing majority. I like the bloke myself but he needs more than people like me to win an election or even make significant gains in 2024. We can't go another four years only for the Tories to win another majority and the progressive parties to pretty much go back to square one.

Edited May 4, 2021 by RandoEFC

[LFCMike]

19 hours ago, UNIQUE said:

anyway im still waiting on the thoughts of people about putting foreign criminals up in hotels free of charge and leaving british people on the streets and kids left to starve. 

It's possible to help both homeless British people and people fleeing war torn countries. This government just chooses not to. Instead they use right wing media to turn people like yourself against refugees and poorer people in this country. All done while handing out billions to their mates

[RandoEFC+]

British government and French fishermen now engaging in passive aggressive posturing around Jersey following changes to post-Brexit fishing allowances.

I don't think it'll develop into anything of real significance but it does highlight what a successful peace project the European Union has been for the past few decades.

[Bluewolf]

So the French blockade the port and we send 2 navy ships to patrol and France send one of theirs to 'patrol' 

If they 'taunt us for a second time' I think we should just open fire and declare war on them... 

[Azeem]

And i thought Tajikistan Kyrgyzstan fighting was the most random conflict right now. 

[LFCMike]

 

[RandoEFC+]

Disastrous council results in most of the North East so far too. And the Hartlepool vote was also 2:1 in favour of the Tories. Couldn't be worse for Labour. 

[Stan]

Hartlepool's candidate doesn't even fucking live there. That's one hell of an embarrassment for Starmer/Labour. Hartlepool pandering to the Brexit vote, pumped cash up there, Labour not really bothered. Even Corbyn kept Hartlepool when the Red Wall was broken up there a few years ago.

[LFCMike]

6 minutes ago, Stan said:

Hartlepool's candidate doesn't even fucking live there. That's one hell of an embarrassment for Starmer/Labour. Hartlepool pandering to the Brexit vote, pumped cash up there, Labour not really bothered. Even Corbyn kept Hartlepool when the Red Wall was broken up there a few years ago.

It's not really a surprise is it when the now dominant force in Labour has spent the years following the referendum branding those in the North who voted leave thick and racist. I don't think Labour will ever recover from ignoring the referendum result in 2019

[RandoEFC+]

It's not about the candidates though, Conservatives making huge gains across the North East councils too. A lot of people are talking about 'realignment' which is increasingly carrying weight. The Northern working class vote has swung heavily towards the Conservatives. The only results that have come out from the South East so far (Colchester) have actually been positive for Labour. If that's echoed across other parts of England outside of the 'Red Wall' then Labour will make up for some of those losses. There's no doubt that Labour will be unable to return to power without making significant gains again in Northern working class areas but their core support base now is increasingly the liberal, metropolitan areas and the suburbs that have traditionally been Conservative but are trending towards Labour. There might be some solace from the council results in areas like that. There's no getting away from the fact that it isn't enough to get anywhere near power but they can use wins and progress in those areas to build some momentum, a new narrative and a new coalition in the long run.

[Stan]

11 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

It's not about the candidates though, Conservatives making huge gains across the North East councils too. A lot of people are talking about 'realignment' which is increasingly carrying weight. The Northern working class vote has swung heavily towards the Conservatives. The only results that have come out from the South East so far (Colchester) have actually been positive for Labour. If that's echoed across other parts of England outside of the 'Red Wall' then Labour will make up for some of those losses. There's no doubt that Labour will be unable to return to power without making significant gains again in Northern working class areas but their core support base now is increasingly the liberal, metropolitan areas and the suburbs that have traditionally been Conservative but are trending towards Labour. There might be some solace from the council results in areas like that. There's no getting away from the fact that it isn't enough to get anywhere near power but they can use wins and progress in those areas to build some momentum, a new narrative and a new coalition in the long run.

Labour lost Harlow to Tories.