UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[MUFC]

Bit off topic, but if we stay will share prices fly up? Is it a good time to buy and take a punt? 

[Bluewolf]

I hear they were using AC/DC's Highway to Hell as their anthem during this protest march... We have been on that stretch of road long before this debacle reared it's ugly head.. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

12 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Wealth is redistributied the “poor” in this country are still globally in the top 2% earning bracket.

 I’m not adverse to a social policy, However I’m realistic enough to know that a social policy also has negatives and requires a robust private sector to fund it. The average 35k p/a white collar worker that spouts “for the many not the few” is devoid of reality. If you live amongst the shit you grind to get out of it. Fuck Corbyn he’ll just give the idle cunts more to squander. 

No I answered it the first time, you never really countered, you just seem to be hung up on Nigel Farage a bloke who has no real power or wasn’t part of the official campaign, a campaign that distinaced itself from UKIP as UKIP started transforming into the BNP in Purple. You’ve not looked at that or even considered that Brexit is the result of a multitude of factors, you’ve pigeonholed it as racist and you’ve just repeated yourself ad Infinitum. I’m not offended by being labelled I’m just bored of your shite. 

Hahaha that first sentence 

[Tommy]

https://v.redd.it/ghxaj4mpqun21

[The Artful Dodger]

15 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I don’t even know what Jim broadbents auto corrected from tbh.  But I think you’ve underestimated just who voted for Corbyn at the last general election. You would call them blairites now but come GE time they roll out the “for the many not the few” story’s is a great example. 

 

I thought 'Jim Broadbents' was some sort of new 'Snowflake' type insult then.

[Batard]

If nothing else, the filter doth bring much mirth 

[The Artful Dodger]

Tommy Robisnon: 'All these Islam loving, cuck, fucking Jim Broadbents with their omnipresence in all middle of the road films are the enemy in our midst!'

Edited March 24, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Batard]

1 minute ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Tommy Robisnon: 'All these Islam loving, cuck, fucking Jim Broadbents with their omnipresence in all middle of the road films are the enemy in our midst!'

Tommy Robinson is an imbecile 

[Fairy In Boots]

13 hours ago, Inverted said:

We're one of the most unequal countries in the developed world. One of the least socially mobile. We have the wealthiest region in Western Europe and several of the poorest. Our wages have been stagnant for a decade. Our government spending as a proportion of GDP is one of the lowest in large European countries. Our child poverty and homelessness rates have soared. Our benefits system has been "reformed" into a intentional system of punishment and humiliation designed force people into insecure work which is basically not liveable. 

If wealth and resources were really being distributed effectively in this country, we wouldn't have hordes of uneducated thickos living in unimaginably grim post-industrial shitholes, scraping a living on poverty wages, who are so desperate and lacking in critical faculties that you can convince them that Nigel Farage is their savior. 

If you’re in a job and your wages have been stagnant for a decade then it’s really quite simple, Leave. Companies are only going to pay you if they value you and if they’re not giving £ then you’re probably not valued by them. 

Also if you’re forced into “unstable work” then do something about it, most don’t, they sit on their arse smoke a joint and rant about the system. I’m from the gutter, those who work hard try to better themselves get on those who believe they need to be kept by the state rot. 

Out of the group of lads I grew up with out of a dozen 5 (including myself) have got on and are enjoying middle class lifestyles now. The others are still rotting, do you know the difference? Benefit us 5 have never claimed a penny, you get laid off (which has happened I had a month of no work aged 19) the next day 9-5 you look for a job and you keep going. 

The others flounce in and out of work, are unreliable and sign on straightaway. They half arse interviews do token job hunts etc.  The safety net encourages laziness and lack of personal accountability, they’re getting their dole. 

Of course illness & circumstances should be exceptions but if you’re 20+ not working fit and healthy you’re a waster. Also worth pointing out that idleness has a massive impact on mental health and well being so pandering to idelness just exacerbates the problem. 

Corbyn would just increase the stagnation, it’s in a nutshell why socialism as an economic system always fails. It sounds great but in reality as great as you sound with your “Rich Bad / Poor Good” spiel, reality interjects and essentially you socialists are just flogging a chocolate teapot. 

Also on wages a good rule of thumb is once you’re 25 you should be earning similar amount in cash per annum. Eg 30-30k etc if you’re not you’re failing at life. I don’t I’m in the high earning tax bracket aged 33 and I have 0 higher education qualifications. But yeah social mobility blah blah. The harsh reality is there is social mobility, but not for those that don’t offer much. Socialists tend to fall into this category, it’s why they become so bitter north of 30. 

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Hahaha that first sentence 

€28k or $32k a year puts you in the global 1%. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

So do you suggest we pay our workers like Indonesian sweatshop workers? Probably.

I actually did leave so I could make as much money as I could for 10-15 years before I come back. And to be honest, if there’s a no deal Brexit I’ll probably be able to buy a pretty nice house in London and I’ll probably do that and rent it out until I come back

[The Artful Dodger]

Have to say yesterday's march has turned me complete against Remain. It was just middle class people from across the country, headed by Umunna, Soubry and Campbell. Its the continuity remainers who are taking charge. Left wingers who want real change must oppose them. People say the ERG bad but we've already got awful government and have done for 40 years. 

[LFCMike]

Hahaha that Brummie, one bad cunt him

[Fairy In Boots]

6 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

So do you suggest we pay our workers like Indonesian sweatshop workers? Probably.

I actually did leave so I could make as much money as I could for 10-15 years before I come back. And to be honest, if there’s a no deal Brexit I’ll probably be able to buy a pretty nice house in London and I’ll probably do that and rent it out until I come back

No and we don’t pay people cheaply we have a higher basic wage and personal tax allowances than Indonesia, businesses in breach these laws of this are prosecuted. 

I’m talking about benefits, they don’t work. A strong private sector with good job prospects is what we should be funding, not giving the poor more. As the saying go “give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to and you feed him for the rest of his lifetime”. Walk round a council estate for a month and watch a universal credit cycle. ***spoiler alert*** they’re queuing up in the post office day 1 and then they go the off license next door buy fags & scratch cards, all in named gear, all have a couple of hundred quids worth of body ink. Come week 3 they’re withdrawing £1 or £2 because cash machines only deal in £10’s and the £2 is for essentials. 

I’d have thrown billions in. Apprenticeships rather than a bank bailout personally I’d have built a very strong high tech based economy,  it’s what I’d do post Brexit to tbh. 

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Have to say yesterday's march has turned me complete against Remain. It was just middle class people from across the country, headed by Umunna, Soubry and Campbell. Its the continuity remainers who are taking charge. Left wingers who want real change must oppose them. People say the ERG bad but we've already got awful government and have done for 40 years. 

It wasn’t 1million people and it was all middle England white champagne socialists, they obviously don’t get the irony that they’re going to be “gammons” themselves in 5 years time. 

[RandoEFC+]

All of the people on this march and signing this petition that originally voted Leave I have no sympathy for. Can't be arsed with people cry arsing about how they didn't know all the facts and now they do they've changed their mind. Perhaps do your research next time you're going to vote on something as big as this?

I maintain that the campaigners on both sides were completely irresponsible in allowing their point scoring crusades to get in the way of presenting actual facts in favour of their side of the referendum, but voting either way without reading the information (and the information was out there if you looked past the front pages and news channels on television who invariably have their own agenda regardless of what anyone says) is completely stupid and makes me despise our electorate even more.

I'd love to think that people who now realise that they should have read up on stuff before deciding which way to vote will at least have learned a life lesson about their responsibilities as members of a democratic society but you know they'll do the same thing in the next election or important vote.

[MUFC]

May being forced out then?

[MUFC]

23 hours ago, MUFC said:

Bit off topic, but if we stay will share prices fly up? Is it a good time to buy and take a punt? 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

13 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

All of the people on this march and signing this petition that originally voted Leave I have no sympathy for. Can't be arsed with people cry arsing about how they didn't know all the facts and now they do they've changed their mind. Perhaps do your research next time you're going to vote on something as big as this?

This is partially why I want a no deal to go through. Maybe a big long recession would teach people there’s consequences to the votes they make. Probably not though, because they’ll just be fed more horseshit and blame everyone else for their problems.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, MUFC said:

 

I wouldn’t, but maybe - but it’s really hard to predict how Brexit will go and I think the delay makes it even harder to predict. For the first deadline to be met and with a No Brexit there’s a lot of political stagnation and stalemate that needs to be sorted out... in not that much time. And for the second delayed deadline, where there would be a cleaner break from the EU, we need to get a new deal in that both the EU and our MPs can agree on - and that’s been a nightmare for 2 years.

It’s basically making a bet on competence politically. It might happen, you never know - but I doubt it

[The Artful Dodger]

40 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I wouldn’t, but maybe - but it’s really hard to predict how Brexit will go and I think the delay makes it even harder to predict. For the first deadline to be met and with a No Brexit there’s a lot of political stagnation and stalemate that needs to be sorted out... in not that much time. And for the second delayed deadline, where there would be a cleaner break from the EU, we need to get a new deal in that both the EU and our MPs can agree on - and that’s been a nightmare for 2 years.

It’s basically making a bet on competence politically. It might happen, you never know - but I doubt it

I'm not sure how that logic works. We're going to have a recession anyway, it's the fundamental nature of our economy, brexit or no brexit. Getting a Labour government is far more important than Brexit for me, if we continue to have Conservative governments we'll continue to see plastic growth where real wages are stagnant and fall, the most vulnerable see services slashed and crime rates go through the roof in the poorest areas. The march of the Waitrose shoppers on Saturday was just navel gazing from middle England, they couldn't give a fuck about the poor, they're just worried about their holidays abroad.

Edited March 25, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Batard]

I was surprised to read that the EU referendum here did not include a legally binding application of the result. Well I say that, the French revolution is still contested to this day. 

Then when I read the EU Referendum act I understood why, it does not include anything regarding implementation of a result. It's also further interesting as Britain doesn't have a codified constitution. A EU referendum in ... well Europe would be to amend the constitution as part of the result. So a referendum in Britain only has force of law if the Act setting it up declares it. All considerably more complex than you'd first suspect. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/contents/enacted

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm not sure how that logic works. We're going to have a recession anyway, it's the fundamental nature of our economy, brexit or no brexit. Getting a Labour government is far more important than Brexit for me, if we continue to have Conservative governments we'll continue to see plastic growth where real wages are stagnant and fall, the most vulnerable see services slashed and crime rates go through the roof in the poorest areas. The march of the Waitrose shoppers on Saturday was just navel gazing from middle England, they couldn't give a fuck about the poor, they're just worried about their holidays abroad.

How bad a recession will be post-Brexit depends on what outcome comes out; a no deal would be particularly bad with WTO tariffs/non-tariff barriers.

There’s a lot of debate as to what a post-Brexit recession will be like and how deep of a recession it would be. But betting on no Brexit and a stock bump at this point sounds weirdly optimistic, imo

[The Artful Dodger]

The EU is not the problem but neither is it some ennobled angel of good for the working man, it's clearly something which has, chiefly, big business at its heart and punishes those who step out of line, the poor and weakest, see Greece. I'm more romantically attached to the idea of a united Europe and I fear the cultural repercussions of Brexit, the empowering of xenophobia etc. The Lexit arugment is increasingly winning me over though, I don't want to be on the same side as the twats who marched on Saturday, these people are the enemy just as much as Farage and Johnson. In fact possibly more so given the fact they pretend to be the friend of working people but are not at all.

[Stan]

Tell you what, @The Artful Dodger has done well to interview everyone on that march and come to the conclusion they are all as he labels. Kudos. 

[The Artful Dodger]

Want to bet me I'm wrong? There may well have been some poorer people there but it was largely a march of middle class people, with middle class interests. Nothing wrong with that but this attempt to paint it as some sort of mandate to unilaterally revoke article 50 is disgusting.

[Inverted]

2 hours ago, Batard said:

I was surprised to read that the EU referendum here did not include a legally binding application of the result. Well I say that, the French revolution is still contested to this day. 

Then when I read the EU Referendum act I understood why, it does not include anything regarding implementation of a result. It's also further interesting as Britain doesn't have a codified constitution. A EU referendum in ... well Europe would be to amend the constitution as part of the result. So a referendum in Britain only has force of law if the Act setting it up declares it. All considerably more complex than you'd first suspect. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/contents/enacted

It's impossible for anything to be binding really because essentially anything can be done by a Parliamentary majority. 

You could write in the Act establishing a certain referendum "this referendum shall be binding" and then the next day, if a few votes swung in the Commons, Parliament could delete that sentence. In fact it probably wouldn't even need to do that because if Parliament chose to ignore the result, there's no way of taking it to court to force it to do something. 

It's the same where a few years back it was written into law that the Scottish Parliament is permanent, which is meaningless because if a majority in the Westminster Parliament ever decided to abolish the Scottish Parliament, that line would have zero legal effect.

Despite the massive network of conventions and competing legal systems in Britain, the only real constitutional rule is that Parliament can theoretically do literally anything. It can make any decision, break any other existing law, and nobody can override it, nor can it bind itself to any course of action. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Inverted