UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Danny]

17 hours ago, Carnivore Chris said:

I'm no longer English anyway. I no longer identify as being any particular nationality.

If a man can claim to be a woman(or viceversa, which is fine by me of course) or a person can claim to not identify as any gender, then surely that applies to your race or nationality as well?

 

 

If you feel that your identity is not based in nationalism then that’s fine...no one chooses their identity you just gravitate towards what feels like you. Hence why people identify as different genders rather than choose to be different genders 

[Honey Honey]

George Orwell wrote about the curious case of the English bourgeoisie pretending not to be nationalist whilst rim jobbing other nations. Transferred nationalism he called it, whilst arguing those people have not transcended nationalism at all.

"God, the King, the Empire, the Union Jack – all the overthrown idols can reappear under different names, and because they are not recognized for what they are they can be worshipped with a good conscience. Transferred nationalism, like the use of scapegoats, is a way of attaining salvation without altering one’s conduct"

George Orwell

 

 

[The Artful Dodger]

53 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

George Orwell wrote about the curious case of the English bourgeoisie pretending not to be nationalist whilst rim jobbing other nations. Transferred nationalism he called it, whilst arguing those people have not transcended nationalism at all.

"God, the King, the Empire, the Union Jack – all the overthrown idols can reappear under different names, and because they are not recognized for what they are they can be worshipped with a good conscience. Transferred nationalism, like the use of scapegoats, is a way of attaining salvation without altering one’s conduct"

George Orwell

 

 

It's odd how George Orwell has now been claimed by the right as some sort of English nationalist, I'd suggest it's because most of them have never read a single George Orwell book/article, instead reading one or two quotes such as the above.

The effete middle class were the biggest offenders in the whole sickening 'it's coming home' stuff we saw in 2018, one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen in England. Being a good Englishman is about humour, irony and self awareness, no time for this American bollocks. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by The Artful Dodger

[Honey Honey]

42 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

It's odd how George Orwell has now been claimed by the right as some sort of English nationalist, I'd suggest it's because most of them have never read a single George Orwell book/article, instead reading one or two quotes such as the above.

The effete middle class were the biggest offenders in the whole sickening 'it's coming home' stuff we saw in 2018, one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen in England. Being a good Englishman is about humour, irony and self awareness, no time for this American bollocks. 

Who actually claims him as some sort of English nationalist? Orwell, as I pointed out, argued for transcending nationalism as opposed to transferring nationalism.

Not sure there was any need for the xenophobic end to your post unless that was a lame part of the irony. Seems odd to on the one hand try to hit out at nationalism and on the other hand label something foreign that should be rejected. 

[The Artful Dodger]

9 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

Who actually claims him as some sort of English nationalist? Orwell, as I pointed out, argued for transcending nationalism as opposed to transferring nationalism.

I've seen him quoted by various people (granted, mainly on twitter) for his opposition to English liberals, as if he'd be supportive of this peculiar brand of English national feeling which has been reared over the past decades.

[Fairy In Boots]

10 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I've seen him quoted by various people (granted, mainly on twitter) for his opposition to English liberals, as if he'd be supportive of this peculiar brand of English national feeling which has been reared over the past decades.

Think it’s more a likening of 1984 totalitarianism to current regressive left outrage culture and people on the right love Animal farm because it’s a criticism of stallist communism. 

Allistair Stewart quoting Shakespeare’s is something I think Orwell would have criticised. 

I think old right / left disagreed but respected each other. 

New left and hard right just hate each other but don’t see the irony that they’re very similar 

[RandoEFC+]

The whole left right thing is tiresome now. We're in a weird place in society where very few people would use the term left wing or right wing to describe themselves because somehow both of them come with some sort of stigma.

Probably because politicians and journalists from both "sides" use the opposite to them as some sort of unspeakable insult when they're in an argument with someone from the other "side".

Clearly, my views fall more towards the left on most matters but I would find it ridiculous if someone called me "left wing" because now it seems like that (and "right wing") has connotations of some sort of rabid extremism where it has to define your entire belief system. Like I couldn't be "left wing" but also think the government are right to scrap this law where they're automatically releasing known terrorists halfway through their sentence.

Strange world we live in. I'd have thought after millennia of evolution it would be considered pretty normal for people to be capable of making their mind up on individual issues given all of the information but instead it just seems to be pick a side and blindly support/criticise whatever your leaders/the other team's leaders do, as loud as you can of course, and regardless of whether you actually know anything of what you speak.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

The whole left right thing is tiresome now. We're in a weird place in society where very few people would use the term left wing or right wing to describe themselves because somehow both of them come with some sort of stigma.

Probably because politicians and journalists from both "sides" use the opposite to them as some sort of unspeakable insult when they're in an argument with someone from the other "side".

Clearly, my views fall more towards the left on most matters but I would find it ridiculous if someone called me "left wing" because now it seems like that (and "right wing") has connotations of some sort of rabid extremism where it has to define your entire belief system. Like I couldn't be "left wing" but also think the government are right to scrap this law where they're automatically releasing known terrorists halfway through their sentence.

Strange world we live in. I'd have thought after millennia of evolution it would be considered pretty normal for people to be capable of making their mind up on individual issues given all of the information but instead it just seems to be pick a side and blindly support/criticise whatever your leaders/the other team's leaders do, as loud as you can of course, and regardless of whether you actually know anything of what you speak.

I think that weird place we're in stems from the fact that politics has become so tribal and moderates have been pushed to extreme ends. It does point to the horseshoe theory being accurate - how if you go far enough left or right, to the extremes you end up with roughly the same views just on opposite ends of the spectrum. You see it with populists on the left and right in the US & Europe... you even see it with Islamists in the Middle East compared to the religious right in the US.

Most people have a wide array of political views that doesn't neatly fit them inside of any party's manifesto. And most people are fairly moderate and not on those ends of the horseshoe. But we live in the age of the 24/7 info streams and the internet's made it easier than ever to communicate with each other - and that's led it to be pretty easy to push people towards the extremes imo. You see something political online you agree with or disagree with, and if you look into it long enough you'll find enough shite out there pushing you to one side and away from another.

I don't think the political realm is going to move away from the extremes and back to the moderates anytime soon, at least not without something getting much worse than it does.

Until then, I think we'll just keep seeing people treat politics as though you're the fan of a football club and your biggest rival club is everyone who happens to disagree with you. You see it all the time online, where people don't actually debate politics based on policy - but just resort to insults and saying shite that amounts to "haha, get fucked we won"

[Tommy]

Awww yisssss. 

 

 

[Stan]

What a shitshow

 

[Inverted]

One thing the Tories have shown with complete clarity and shamelessness in government has been a complete disregard for the law. The posts of attorney general and lord chancellor have become complete jokes under their rule, on top of the judicial system being routinely demonised, and constitutional conventions being ignored. 

Wouldnt be surprised to see us in a Poland or Hungary kind of situation before this government's term is up. 

[RandoEFC+]

Colin's going to have a real ball after the transition period ends.

[Dr. Gonzo]

21 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Colin's going to have a real ball after the transition period ends.

Gonna follow this account, you just know someone this stupid is going to be entertaining.

and of course he’s from the fuckin midlands 

[Fairy In Boots]

On 14/02/2020 at 17:24, RandoEFC said:

Colin's going to have a real ball after the transition period ends.

 

21 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Gonna follow this account, you just know someone this stupid is going to be entertaining.

and of course he’s from the fuckin midlands 

Colin is a lefty remainer parody account, there was a staffing issue at Amsterdam as the airport themselves have had to comment on it. It’s been taken up though and presented as fact by all our remain loving media outfits 24hours after it was revealed as a parody. But yeah fake news is all Russians 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Fairy In Boots

[Dr. Gonzo]

Any proof it’s a parody account? Because it doesn’t look like anything other than a genuine idiot and if you search his name + parody... you don’t get any hits

[RandoEFC+]

 

 

[Danny]

This man won by a landslide...

 

 

[RandoEFC+]

Anyone else following this story? This guy is usually well on top of things despite bizarrely being BuzzFeeds political journalist. He was the first I saw breaking the Sabisky story.

I think it's been a real mistake allowing Dominic Cummings to become such a forefrontal figure (is that a phrase?). Then again I don't see how they could have avoided it with how closely he has worked with Johnson. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Anyone else following this story? This guy is usually well on top of things despite bizarrely being BuzzFeeds political journalist. He was the first I saw breaking the Sabisky story.

I think it's been a real mistake allowing Dominic Cummings to become such a forefrontal figure (is that a phrase?). Then again I don't see how they could have avoided it with how closely he has worked with Johnson. 

Wait are you saying it's bizarre that Buzzfeed's got a good political journalist?

I used to think it was pretty bizarre that Buzzfeed was turning out to produce regularly good investigative journalist content. But it turns out they've gone well out of their way to hire really good journalists. Their clickbait pays the bills for their serious news work... and lately they've actually broke a lot of stories that get picked up by the bigger, more trusted, news sources... even though Buzzfeed's done all the hard journalistic legwork for them.

In any case, I'm not surprised people are finding Cummings impossible, or nearly impossible, to work with. It doesn't bode well for the UK to have political advisors unable to give honest advice when it flies in the face of "the party line" - that's sort of the exact situation the US is facing now. Where career public servants are finding their work impossible to when their opinion formed over decades in the field flies in the face of what the populists want to push.

I don't think BoJo is particularly ideologically principled. I think what he believes in most is whatever he believes gives him the most power. So if enough in the government find Cummings impossible to work with and bring those grievances to light... it might make Cummings' position as chief aide untenable. On the other hand, if BoJo doesn't feel like good and honest advice from public servants is going to be helpful in keeping his government in power... he's not going to give a fuck how aggrieved they are.

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-google-privacy-eu-exclusive-idUSKBN20D2M3?utm_source=reddit.com

So um... why is UK data for UK citizens going to be lumped under US jurisdiction... rather than UK jurisdiction?

[RandoEFC+]

Why does this Labour leadership contest take so long? It doesn't get announced until 4th April ffs.

It seems like Keir Starmer will win anyway. I would personally have preferred Lisa Nandy, I guess she still has a chance, just as long as it isn't Long-Bailey. 

Angela Rayner seems to have the Deputy Leadership in the bag as well. I think Starmer/Rayner is probably a good combination as Starmer will better appeal to the people who aren't left-wing extremists as party leader but the very influential Momentum/Corbynite wing of the party will still have one of their leading lights as deputy leader.

What happened to the Lib Dem leadership by the way? Didn't Jo Swinson step down or did she end up staying on?

[God is Haaland]

[Dr. Gonzo]

25 minutes ago, God is Haaland said:

It's not showing up.

[Fairy In Boots]

On 15/02/2020 at 18:17, Dr. Gonzo said:

Any proof it’s a parody account? Because it doesn’t look like anything other than a genuine idiot and if you search his name + parody... you don’t get any hits

Yes the history of the account. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Yes the history of the account. 

wow such parody