England National Team Discussion

[Danny]

10 hours ago, Dan said:

It screams five at the back but the back is entirely based to the right. You don't need that many right backs.

I've over time just shrugged my shoulders about players being overlooked but Maddison's face just doesn't fit with Southgate. I think he's massively unlucky. I say this as a fairly heavy critic of Maddison's form early season but he fully deserved our POTS. I thought he'd get in this time. That's killed any chance of the World Cup for him as well.

I just hope he doesn't think he needs to leave us. While I do think the big 6 bias isn't the sole reason for ommitting him (given the likes of Phillips, Coady, Guehi are in) but I don't think he'd have gotten away with it if Maddison had his record for say Chelsea.

Only two of those players will likely play at right back though, Walker will be a centre back and Trippier most likely left back if we go to a back four which provides more centre back cover as he did in the Euros.

The thing with Maddison though is that he has a lot of competition ahead of him. Southgate is a lot of things but he’s fair and also pragmatic. If you look at creators in the midfield that are less work horsey then you’ve got Foden, Grealish and Mount. Away from them we’ve also got Bellingham and Ward-Prowse who will play a slightly different role but still offer much of the same.

I feel for Maddison but I think there’s always a logic to what Southgate does and if a player who seems to deserve a call up doesn’t get it it’s not cos Southgate doesn’t rate them, it’s probably because he balances out the type of players he will call up and he’s already called up a few players similar to Maddison.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Counter argument. Foden is a forward, Grealish is a left winger and a pretty mediocre one at that, and I'd rather have Maddison than Mount in the team, especially in games where England are going to be defending 60% of the time. 

[Lucas]

On 24/05/2022 at 21:02, Dan said:

Maddison's very unlucky. That's virtually a guarantee he's got no chance of the World Cup either. He deserved to be in this time.

Face doesn't fit though. Southgate prefers workhorses over creators. Like most England managers.

Reminds me of Lee Bowyer. I'd say he marked his own card with Southgate and probably carries a negative stigma about him personally.

Hasn't Maddison had two or three occurances where discipline has let him down?

I seem to remember the incident where he pulled out of the England squad feeling unwell only to be pictured loving life in a Casino. I think he also had or went to some party with the Euro's like a couple months away?

I realise he isn't the only one, others are in the squad and had similar issues but I think the incidents have really stung Southgate enough to completely blank him as its happened more than once.

He takes discipline seriously having suspended players in the past for misdemeaners but it seems Maddison has burned more chances.

Not saying that doesn't mean he isn't worthy of a chance, I like Maddison as a player and he should have a shed load of caps by now, but I've seen this all before with Lee Bowyer.

Without doubt the form of his life for us between '99 and '02, one of the best scoring midfielders in the country in the O'Leary team, and he never got a look in due to a negative stigma of off field problems.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Lucas

[Stan]

30 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Hasn't Maddison had two or three occurances where discipline has let him down?

I seem to remember the incident where he pulled out of the England squad feeling unwell only to be pictured loving life in a Casino. I think he also had or went to some party with the Euro's like a couple months away?

I realise he isn't the only one, others are in the squad and had similar issues but I think the incidents have really stung Southgate enough to completely blank him as its happened more than once.

He takes discipline seriously having suspended players in the past for misdemeaners but it seems Maddison has burned more chances.

1 issue. That casino one. Which was blown way out of proportion. It was agreed with England he could return home. So he did. Once he's home, he's pretty much free to do what he wants within reason . For some reason Southgate seems to keep that in his memory.

You have Grealish guilty of drink driving and wrecking his car.

Kyle Walker having COVID parties.

Foden cheating on his missus while on England duty. 

Maguire and those shenanigans in Greece (?).

It's double-standards, to be honest. You say similar issues but going to a casino is hardly crime of the century and pales into sheer insignificance compared to the above. 

I don't get how discipline comes into serious play with Maddison if that is the real reason, but not for the others. 

[Lucas]

21 minutes ago, Stan said:

1 issue. That casino one. Which was blown way out of proportion. It was agreed with England he could return home. So he did. Once he's home, he's pretty much free to do what he wants within reason . For some reason Southgate seems to keep that in his memory.

You have Grealish guilty of drink driving and wrecking his car.

Kyle Walker having COVID parties.

Foden cheating on his missus while on England duty. 

Maguire and those shenanigans in Greece (?).

It's double-standards, to be honest. You say similar issues but going to a casino is hardly crime of the century and pales into sheer insignificance compared to the above. 

I don't get how discipline comes into serious play with Maddison if that is the real reason, but not for the others. 

I'm not disagreeing as others have had incidents but I think you missed the point about this happening more than once with Maddison. And that's ultimately why I think Southgate is excluding him. 

As I alluded to before, sadly for Maddison, I think he's got a negative stigma fairly or unfairly, with Southgate that seems too hard for him to shake.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Lucas

[Stan]

13 minutes ago, Lucas said:

I'm not disagreeing as others have had incidents but I think you missed the point about this happening more than once with Maddison. And that's ultimately why I think Southgate is excluding him. 

As I alluded to before, sadly for Maddison, I think he's got a negative stigma fairly or unfairly, with Southgate that seems too hard for him to shake.

Nah I understand the point made to be fair, I just think at what point will Maddison ever get a chance again - based on how this season and his form panned out, there's probably never been a better opportunity to be selected. If Southgate is always going to shun him, I'd genuinely he rather just be honest about it and say he's never going to be picked . It doesn't make sense to leave any player hanging after a misdemeanour or two and to then have that hanging over someone's head for 2-3 years. So no matter what Maddison could have done this season, it now appears like Southgate wouldn't have picked him anyway. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Nah I understand the point made to be fair, I just think at what point will Maddison ever get a chance again - based on how this season and his form panned out, there's probably never been a better opportunity to be selected. If Southgate is always going to shun him, I'd genuinely he rather just be honest about it and say he's never going to be picked . It doesn't make sense to leave any player hanging after a misdemeanour or two and to then have that hanging over someone's head for 2-3 years. So no matter what Maddison could have done this season, it now appears like Southgate wouldn't have picked him anyway. 

Maddison's too creative for Southgate to understand how to use imo. Man needs workhorses for his simplistic tactics.

[Lucas]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Nah I understand the point made to be fair, I just think at what point will Maddison ever get a chance again - based on how this season and his form panned out, there's probably never been a better opportunity to be selected. If Southgate is always going to shun him, I'd genuinely he rather just be honest about it and say he's never going to be picked . It doesn't make sense to leave any player hanging after a misdemeanour or two and to then have that hanging over someone's head for 2-3 years. So no matter what Maddison could have done this season, it now appears like Southgate wouldn't have picked him anyway. 

You should be able to forgive and forget if the player in question has done their talking on the pitch, I agree.

They are all relatively young men in the public eye who will make mistakes in life like we all have, and need nurturing so you'd like to think Southgate offers that support to all players, not just his favourites but here we are.

Anyway, it doesn't matter whose called up really, the tried and tested format from the Euro's will be rolled out for the first group game in Qatar with little to no varience. Southgate is far too one dimensional for me to get the best out of what he has.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

[Danny]

I know we talk about playing a more progressive team and we talk about Southgate’s limitations, but I do also wonder if we’re currently a match made even if there are what if moments.

Players like Sancho, Grealish and Foden are all the sorts we’d like to see in our team but being honest you have to evaluate the midfield options before making that kind of choice.

Our current midfield 2 is Kalvin Phillips and Declan Rice, we may add a Henderson for more combativeness or a Mount for more possession but really this isn’t a midfield that is going to be dictating tempo and constantly playing passes through the lines. It’s going to be high wing backs and Phillips/Rice’s distance passing to switch sides to a less congested area of the pitch.

Harry Kane is so instrumental to how we play because he is someone that can drop deep, drag a defender and pass through the lines. Because of that you need speed on the wings and so that’s going to Sterling and then one of Foden, Grealish, Saka and Sancho. Maybe Foden plays attacking mid instead of Mount, but ultimately I don’t think we can afford to have a midfield that isn’t industrious at all times.

Once you remove the Phillips/Rice partnership, or Henderson instead of Rice, and start chucking Bellingham and Mount in it falls apart. I think Phillips can play at the base of a tempo controlling team, but Rice would need someone better than Phillips behind him and better than Mount ahead of him to fit into that.

The key aspects to this team that can’t change are defensive solidity in our centre backs, Phillips/Rice partnership, aggressive wing backs who can defend too, and a Kane/Sterling partnership. Everything outside of that is up to debate, which in fairness, isn’t a lot.

If we ever move away from the back 5 I don't know but one thing I'm fairly certain this England team needs is an industrious midfield because I would say our midfielders in Phillips, Rice, Henderson, Bellingham and Mount all have in common is that none of them are dictate the tempo, break through the lines with a slick pass from deep type midfielder and all of them have varying levels of defensive nous. And that dictates how the rest of the team plays as Foden just isn't an attacking for England.

Sterling/Grealish - Kane - Sterling/Foden/Saka

Mount/Bellingham - Rice/Henderson/Bellingham

Phillips/Henderson

Chilwell/Shaw/Trippier - Maguire/Tomori - Stones - Walker/James/TAA

Pickford

 

That imo is as attacking as this current England team will get or should get during the next tournament.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Danny

[Waylander]

I don't disagree with the defence.

Midfield think Rice and Henderson. Think Philips is always a card risk.

Kane, Sterling and Mount upfront as these are direct,

With Foden, Grealish and Saka if plan A does not work.

If playing a back four then the choice of any of the last line or more in midfiled like Philips or Bellingham depending on the opposition. 

Southgate needs to make subs on 70 mins if it is not working not 75mins.

 

[Cicero]

England's attack will always be unbalanced considering there are zero direct players and England's midfield will always be a weak spot given Rice isn't a traditional holding DM which would allow England to play a back 4. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 21/06/2022 at 12:57, Cicero said:

England's attack will always be unbalanced considering there are zero direct players and England's midfield will always be a weak spot given Rice isn't a traditional holding DM which would allow England to play a back 4. 

 

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think there's a few good young direct players at Southgate's disposal in attack & I'm not convinced that Rice is a must-start player for England.  But even if he is, put him in a midfield 3 with Henderson and Phillips and I think a decent 4-3-3 is possible. Or drop Rice to the bench throw in Mount or Maddison for a 4-2-3-1.

The thing is I don't think the manager likes playing with any tactics other than: "be strong defensively, hit them on the break, and work hard at set pieces" and he's not so interested in playing decent football as much as he is in just winning matches (which, in fairness to him, is his job). But I'm not sure that'll be enough to get us passed the better sides in a world cup.

[Danny]

On 21/06/2022 at 20:57, Cicero said:

England's attack will always be unbalanced considering there are zero direct players and England's midfield will always be a weak spot given Rice isn't a traditional holding DM which would allow England to play a back 4. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think there's a few good young direct players at Southgate's disposal in attack & I'm not convinced that Rice is a must-start player for England.  But even if he is, put him in a midfield 3 with Henderson and Phillips and I think a decent 4-3-3 is possible. Or drop Rice to the bench throw in Mount or Maddison for a 4-2-3-1.

The thing is I don't think the manager likes playing with any tactics other than: "be strong defensively, hit them on the break, and work hard at set pieces" and he's not so interested in playing decent football as much as he is in just winning matches (which, in fairness to him, is his job). But I'm not sure that'll be enough to get us passed the better sides in a world cup.

Phillips is the starting DM, Rice will play alongside him.

Maddison doesn’t make the team as he’s not versatile enough defensively and currently in this England midfield you have to be defensive minded at least partially.

[Cicero]

Tbh lads I don't even remember typing that. 

 

You'd think a pivot of Rice + Phillips with Mount at CAM could work. Still think they will get over ran by superior midfields. 

[SirBalon]

I think I’ll leave this here

Total legend!

 

[Danny]

 

[Danny]

Great call up for Ivan, he's more than deserved it this season and off the back of last season too. Do I think he'll see much game time with Kane around? No. But his penalty taking is second to none in this squad and so he will always be a good option come competition time. Not to mention he is really a direct replacement for Kane should he get injured or need resting, plus he adds a focal point up top that Kane doesn't.

Elsewhere the goalkeeping options look like but there we go.

Defence looks good, Maguire is always going to get selected because he has always played well for England. Until he doesn't he won't get selected, but he has confidence playing for Southgate and England and can play well in a back 3. It will be a talking point but honestly it's a non-starter for me, you have to trust the players who perform well for you and he is one of them.

The midfield looks good too, feel like I'd want Henderson's tenacity in there but all of those players are out and out number 6's or 8's, defensively capable as well as offensively, no room for Maddison and I think that's the right choice.

Good to see Rashford and Sancho not in the squad, think they need to do more this season to make their way in whereas the likes of Saka, Bowen, Abraham etc have been doing it this season and last.

Only real question mark is the inclusion of Jack Grealish but again it's a similar situation to Maguire, he's performed well for Southgate in the past and so that trust exists there.

[Dan+]

England's striking options are very good to be honest. I really like both Toney and Abraham. It's good depth to have.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Dan

[Danny]

Can't say I've seen a lot of Abraham at Roma but he was decent in England. I wonder if Southgate has looked at the formation Thomas Frank plays with us and whether or not he'd look into something similar as I think that would suit this England team quite well.

[Cicero]

Wonder if Southgate will ever try Toney and Kane together. 

[Danny]

15 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Wonder if Southgate will ever try Toney and Kane together. 

Both play the same game so probably not, but who knows maybe playing with Kane will allow Toney to get into the box more

[6666]

How is Coady getting into the side? And while Southgate will never give up on Maguire, he's not even as good as Rob Holding let alone Ben White.

And while I think Grealish is very talented, he doesn't have much credit in the bank with England and he's not playing often for Man City. With Phillips you can at least say he's been a big part of England's plans.

Looking through the team, there aren't many that are playing great right now.

[Stan]

Ironic that Rashford/Sancho pick up form and then they are dropped  

[Dr. Gonzo]

12 defenders and 5 midfielders looks funny