German elections 2017: Angela Merkel wins fourth term but AfD makes gains

[Honey Honey]

2 hours ago, StefBWFC said:

The democratic poison that is far-right wing ideology is continuing to establish itself as a perceived 'viable' notion in the Western world.

I'm genuinely not surprised any more, the once shocking event is now so commonplace it barely registers.

Sadly, that's kind of like fundamentalist terrorism in Western population centres. Kinda like the brown people that do those attacks. Kinda like the brown people who work in the shop down the road from me...

OH GOOD GOD, I'D BETTER VOTE FOR A RIGHT-WING PARTY TO KEEP MY COUNTRY SAFE!!

There is no other reason to vote for a far right party than misplaced fear of the 'other'. 

Non sequitur. 

There's no smoke without fire.

People with a fear of the other genuinely experience a fight of flight response. Political choices can fall in line with that, but it looks from this election result that most are suppressing their experience or don't vote anyway. If the German economy takes a bad turn this could get a lot uglier.

I don't know why the commentariat are acting so surprised. A vote like this was predictable from the moment large numbers of refugees were allowed in.

Good luck to those trying to switch other folks amgydala's off using placards and Facebook posts 

[Fairy In Boots]

This thread is gold 😂 Who needs right wing opinions I think it's obvious the only way to go is as far left as possible. Why have an alternative opinion? Let's just ostracise those who differ, it's what the right do because they fear things they don't understand and we're better than them 😂😂😂😂 fucking retards, I'm howling here. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think that the right, generally, has become more extreme. So extremist views are becoming the new normal. Trump, Brexit/UKIP, Le Pen, Wilders, AfD - 10 years ago these kinds of political positions were taken less seriously. Now they're relevant as the new face of many "conservatives" - although I don't think these extremists are "conservative" they want their own radical changes.

I don't think all opinions need to be treated equally. And I find that many right wing populist views are based on how people are feeling - rather than actual cold and hard evidence. For instance, the idea that NHS would get shitloads of money from us pulling out of the EU, or the idea that bilateral trade deals will be better for the UK than multilateral trade deals... despite the fact our biggest trade partners have told us it will not be helpful for our trade prospects. There's also been fearmongering around trade deficits and their impact to the economy - and there've been used in a very misleading way as well. Rhetoric that is reactionary and it's emotionally charged is effective to a large percentage of the electorate.

For as long as traditional conservatives are willing to stand by while extremist views become more normal to the right wing voter, that's as long as I'll remain staunchly opposed to right wingers around the world. With enough of these in power around the world, the global economy could be greatly damaged... and with enough bigots in charge of a country, history has shown us the dangers of that.

[Fairy In Boots]

12 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think that the right, generally, has become more extreme. So extremist views are becoming the new normal. Trump, Brexit/UKIP, Le Pen, Wilders, AfD - 10 years ago these kinds of political positions were taken less seriously. Now they're relevant as the new face of many "conservatives" - although I don't think these extremists are "conservative" they want their own radical changes.

I don't think all opinions need to be treated equally. And I find that many right wing populist views are based on how people are feeling - rather than actual cold and hard evidence. For instance, the idea that NHS would get shitloads of money from us pulling out of the EU, or the idea that bilateral trade deals will be better for the UK than multilateral trade deals... despite the fact our biggest trade partners have told us it will not be helpful for our trade prospects. There's also been fearmongering around trade deficits and their impact to the economy - and there've been used in a very misleading way as well. Rhetoric that is reactionary and it's emotionally charged is effective to a large percentage of the electorate.

For as long as traditional conservatives are willing to stand by while extremist views become more normal to the right wing voter, that's as long as I'll remain staunchly opposed to right wingers around the world. With enough of these in power around the world, the global economy could be greatly damaged... and with enough bigots in charge of a country, history has shown us the dangers of that.

lol Brexit was right wing is so old now, just fuck off with it. There's no doubt elements of the right welcomed it but so did elements of the left. It was about democratic freedom and rejection of EU's thinly veiled imperialism. I'd bet a million pounds darlings of the left like Tony Benn & Corbyn would have or did vote leave, you all fucking know they did to. Stop peddling this shite it's embarrassing. 

On topic it's not that people are extreme, it's more a push back against the progressiveness that's gotten out of hand & a total lack of outlet save right of centre parties (which are labelled far right). The "left" has gotten extreme also, the internet has polarised opinions and people don't want to climb down from a position where they're shown to be wrong. Faithcore is a good example, he says he hates nazi's them behaves like a Nazi then says "I'm out" when he can't compute the hypocrisy of his behaviour. Several fellow retards clap him blissfully unaware that they're pushing people to extreme parties with their total unwillingness to concede or discuss on any topic. I'm classed as far right when I'm right of centre on some issues and left of centre on the others, it's fucking madness really. I think Harv had it right around election time when he said "it's a lot of kids who just can't understand people have a different opinion so they think they're cunts" or something like that, that's correct. 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

The biggest voices for Brexit came from the right. There are some people like Corbyn that were anti-EU, but being anti-EU is a traditional right wing view.

I don't think you can say the right isn't becoming more extreme. Farage was relevant for the first time in his life, Trump won on a campaign of extreme right wing views, National Front was a serious contender for French leadership, Gert Wiilders was taken seriously, and we've got AfD in the reichstag now.

There's obviously going to be pushback to this on the left... and you're right, it's going to make more sides extreme.

Personally I think humanity is on a death spiral and this race to extremism is really just a race to the end of our planet. Too few people are willing to be reasonable.

[God is Haaland]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The biggest voices for Brexit came from the right. There are some people like Corbyn that were anti-EU, but being anti-EU is a traditional right wing view.

I don't think you can say the right isn't becoming more extreme. Farage was relevant for the first time in his life, Trump won on a campaign of extreme right wing views, National Front was a serious contender for French leadership, Gert Wiilders was taken seriously, and we've got AfD in the reichstag now.

There's obviously going to be pushback to this on the left... and you're right, it's going to make more sides extreme.

Personally I think humanity is on a death spiral and this race to extremism is really just a race to the end of our planet. Too few people are willing to be reasonable.

Bundestag, even though it's the Reichstagsgebäude.

[RandoEFC+]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The biggest voices for Brexit came from the right. There are some people like Corbyn that were anti-EU, but being anti-EU is a traditional right wing view.

I don't think you can say the right isn't becoming more extreme. Farage was relevant for the first time in his life, Trump won on a campaign of extreme right wing views, National Front was a serious contender for French leadership, Gert Wiilders was taken seriously, and we've got AfD in the reichstag now.

There's obviously going to be pushback to this on the left... and you're right, it's going to make more sides extreme.

Personally I think humanity is on a death spiral and this race to extremism is really just a race to the end of our planet. Too few people are willing to be reasonable.

The last paragraph is sort of my genuine fear. Too much absolute bollocks going on in a species that's spent thousands of years evolving through natural selection. When Donald Trump is president of America and you have the likes of Putin, Kim Jong-Un, ISIS and countless lesser known corrupt leaders in most continents routinely running around in power despite ranging from delusional to psychopathic and mentally unstable, you seriously have to question how far we've actually come since we lived in caves .

Maybe we should welcome the nuclear apocalypse and let nature try again.

[Fairy In Boots]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The biggest voices for Brexit came from the right. There are some people like Corbyn that were anti-EU, but being anti-EU is a traditional right wing view.

I don't think you can say the right isn't becoming more extreme. Farage was relevant for the first time in his life, Trump won on a campaign of extreme right wing views, National Front was a serious contender for French leadership, Gert Wiilders was taken seriously, and we've got AfD in the reichstag now.

There's obviously going to be pushback to this on the left... and you're right, it's going to make more sides extreme.

Personally I think humanity is on a death spiral and this race to extremism is really just a race to the end of our planet. Too few people are willing to be reasonable.

It depends who you listened to Farage was the popular mouthpiece but Gisela Stuart showed probably the only display of common sense from a labour politician in the last decade.ooking back its hard to look past the Farage on a boat picture but the tv displays when people actually explained that we couldn't do this or that because some unelected cocksucking parasite like Junker said so was damning. 

The national front in France have been on the rise and will continue to do so as The horrors of a feckless immigration system slowly reveal themselves on Europe, likewise in Holland. Sweden will lurch right next as will Italy. 

The fact Trump is labelled Far right yet was actually left of Hillary just shows what a complete mess western politics is in. The global hissy fit afterwards by people has been truly wonderful to behold. I thought Trump was the better of the two and still do, he's wrong on some issues but I don't think it's anything remotely resembling far right. Obama was arguably the worst president in my lifetime certainly him & Bush are the worst I've seen.

[The Artful Dodger]

Likewise when people label people label Merkel as 'left wing', palpable nonsense. The modern political cricis is one entirely of the centre, of capitalist economics and just like before you'll get a rise in right-wing populism but unfortunately we have no viable, present and aggressive left-wing anymore.

[Dr. Gonzo]

59 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

The last paragraph is sort of my genuine fear. Too much absolute bollocks going on in a species that's spent thousands of years evolving through natural selection. When Donald Trump is president of America and you have the likes of Putin, Kim Jong-Un, ISIS and countless lesser known corrupt leaders in most continents routinely running around in power despite ranging from delusional to psychopathic and mentally unstable, you seriously have to question how far we've actually come since we lived in caves .

Maybe we should welcome the nuclear apocalypse and let nature try again.

When the president of the United States has made a number of worrying comments regarding the use of nuclear weapons and nuclear proliferation, it's a reasonable fear. Kim Jong Un isn't going to end his nuclear program because he's seen what happened to Saddam and Gaddafi once they stopped their programs. US forced regime change. Their goal is survival of their regime - a nuke, under normal circumstances, prevents regime change. This hinges on people in charge understanding the ramifications of nuclear war.

What happens with the much Iran nuclear deal, which Trump has been critical of, but was a very huge accomplishment, is a going to be critical with how the North Korea situation pans out. Much like North Korea, the Iranian government wanted nuclear weapons as assurance there would be no regime change. Furthermore, there's a very real need for peaceful nuclear power in Iran - Tehran is a massive city that experienced regular blackouts. Iran agreeing to halt nuclear weapon production and allow foreign inspection of nuclear facilities is a MASSIVE concession for a country that signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and under foreign law is not entitled to allow for concession (ironically, they was signed before the Islamic revolution - and a US designed project for nuclear power was scrapped by Khomeini as he deemed nuclear power "un-Islamic".

The North Koreans will be keeping an eye on whether the US keeps it's end of the bargain on the Iran nuclear deal, or if they go back on their word under Trump. If the US keeps it's word, I imagine a diplomatic resolution to ease some of the instability in the region is more likely. If they don't, I can't imagine North Korea making any concessions it may have regarding nuclear power.

I think we're seeing humanity not learn lessons taught to us through history. Before WWI, it was assumed that because of the giant land armies massed, no major power would risk war with another - because the horrors of war and the size of the armies would mean devastating losses. These armies were a deterrent - like nuclear weapons are today. But I fear we might be far enough removed from the last time nukes dropped for people to understand the utter devastation that can come from it.

Couple that with extremists (some ultra-religious and some not) who make arguments that sound an awful lot like genocide and say a bunch of shite that sounds very much like racial-purity Nazi bullshit (looking to America, they didn't even hide their pro-Nazi affiliation)... it's just very hard not to be worried about the state of the world.

I think we're a big economic crisis away from a lot of horrible shit happening. And markets enjoy stability - something we seem to be in short supply of. So I'm not incredibly optimistic about the future of anything. I would like to be proven wrong, but I simply don't have optimism.

24 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Likewise when people label people label Merkel as 'left wing', palpable nonsense. The modern political cricis is one entirely of the centre, of capitalist economics and just like before you'll get a rise in right-wing populism but unfortunately we have no viable, present and aggressive left-wing anymore.

Right-wing populists were aggressive and opportunistic, while the left has sat by and tried to work with centrists and lost footing. Right-wing populism in the UK and US was particularly effective by using emotional arguments that weren't rooted in fact, but were compelling because of the emotions evoked. Feel good arguments, which for Brexit were making promises on the outcome of Brexit and it's impact - when in reality, it was completely unclear what us leaving the EU entailed, or for Trump - lots of bluster about particular issues, but no actual substance to the policies proposed (for instance: explaining HOW Mexico would be paying for a wall, rather than US taxpayers).

The left needs to tap into this populist movement better. Their economic arguments need to have the same emotional charge as right-wing populists have effectively used... but I also think there's a danger in the ability to misinform and breed a new group of extremist idiots. Ultimately it would be nice if the electorate could be a little more thoughtful and informed, and not fall for emotional bullshit as easily.

[Tommy]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/19/german-coalition-talks-close-to-collapse-angela-merkel

 

Well, well, well. We might have fresh elections on our hands. 

[Panna King]

#Merkelout

[Panna King]

Merkel let a lot of Muslims in to German to get rid and cause terror to the German Jews, once again. 

[Batard]

6 minutes ago, VanPaddy said:

Merkel let a lot of Muslims in to German to get rid and cause terror to the German Jews, once again. 

Erm, what? 

[Panna King]

42 minutes ago, Batard said:

Erm, what? 

That is what the head of the Jewish community said. 

[Batard]

14 minutes ago, VanPaddy said:

That is what the head of the Jewish community said. 

He or she should know better than to say things like that

[Fairy In Boots]

But it’s a fact that Anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe. It’s linked very much with Palestine and the events there, if it goes off anti Semitic attacks spike. He’s right to say it because it’s a fact that the Jews suffer at the hands of Muslims in Europe, statically this is correct. 

[Spike]

2 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

But it’s a fact that Anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe. It’s linked very much with Palestine and the events there, if it goes off anti Semitic attacks spike. He’s right to say it because it’s a fact that the Jews suffer at the hands of Muslims in Europe, statically this is correct. 

I am not semitic nor have I ever been attacked, thank you.

[Kowabunga]

Seehofer apparently to resign as home minister (and "heimat" minister, I get, too) What can we expect from this development?

(Taken from the open letter)

@nudge @Faithcore (out of service) @BartraPique1932 @Rucksackfranzose

 @Tommy

 

[Rucksackfranzose]

17 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

Seehofer apparently to resign as home minister (and "heimat" minister, I get, too) What can we expect from this development?

(Taken from the open letter)

@nudge @Faithcore (out of service) @BartraPique1932 @Rucksackfranzose

 @Tommy

 

Well til now Seehofer didn´t resign yet.

What to expect depends on whether he resigns and if so what reasons he gives for resigning.