(QF) England (p)1-1 Switzerland - Saturday 6th July, 2024

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Dropped your little gripe eh? Funny what happens when I drop the insults, people can't hide behind 'don't be a cunt' and have to ignore the facts being sent their way. Okay, so I suppose you silently accept I haven't at any point hidden the win against Germany.

Okay your particular augment in summary is 'barely anyone is decent quality, we can't control who we face, we should be happy to still be in this tournament despite everything, because the results in future games aren't foregone conclusions'. Pretty fair summary I'd say.

1. Barely anyone is decent. 
True. Absolutely true. But you were bookies favorites, both for winners and top scorers. While I don't think that's fair, I know you accept that you're a much better team in theory than you have offered so far. So don't hid behind 'well we're all a bit shit in international football'. If it was truly a pot luck teams like England and Germany and Spain wouldn't qualify top of their qualification groups playing against teams like Sweden, Slovakia and Switzerland every 2 years.  

2. We can't control who we play. 
Never said you could of course, I just want some acknowledgement that a 3/4 tournament run like this is unprecedented. It literally couldn't have happened in the past, because the old Euro format had less teams, and went straight to a top 8 where the WORST possible team left would have been a Switzerland or Turkey. 

3. The fact that there is less hype and excitement is palpable. I don't expect you to be personally less excited to be in the tournament still no. All you can do at this stage is go 'fuck we suck, fuck we've been lucky, I hope tomorrow is a better day' as an optimist, or as a pessimist go 'fuck we suck, and unless god keeps offering us favors we're goners, but I have no personal preference for which each and every man choses and haven't alluded as such.  

What gripe? I’ve basically said the same thing the whole time, the only time I really tried to be antagonistic was when I said you were Brian with more swear words and you didn’t even bite (lol).

At this point, England can’t lose. We either get some mild heartbreak at getting expectedly knocked out and are gifted a chance to get a proper manager in. Or we keep getting lucky.

There’s nothing more to do than watch Southgate strangle all creativity and goals from this side of creative players and goalscorers and hope for the best.

Or the worst if you hate England.

[OrangeKhrush]

Minutes played:

510 Jordan Pickford, John Stones, Declan Rice, Kyle Walker

491 Jude Bellingham

 

464 Harry Kane

456 Bukayo Saka

453 Phil Foden

408 Kieran Trippier

390 Marc Guehi

210 Kobbie Mainoo

134 Trent Alexander-Arnold

118 Conor Gallagher

115 Cole Palmer

99 Eberechi Eze

 

93 Ezri Konsa

42 Luke Shaw

41 Ivan Toney

35 Jarrod Bowen

20 Ollie Watkins

1 Anthony Gordon

0 Dean Henderson, Aaron Ramsdale, Adam Wharton, Joe Gomez, Lewis Dunk

Southgate didnt pick the team it was the FA beurocrats that did and this shows that some players are wasting off season to be emergency extras.  Replace Gordon, Wharton and Dunk with Maguire, Phillip's and Graelish three players used to doing a lot of nothing.

Knowing Englands luck they will beat the Dutch and the media will be dick riding Southgate like a tactical genius.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Oh, as for 'The Netherlands sucked in 2012 silly billy' yes I am aware of that now. At the time they were world cup finalists at their last tournament, with an elite attack still, and desperate for a win after their L in the first round. I was praying and you better believe that. 

[Azeem]

1 minute ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Even in your crap list the ratio is much much better than 4 losses, 1 penalties loss, 1 win. (16% wins)
My list has us 11 games, 6 losses, 2 penalty wins, 4 wins.(36% wins)

Why are you comparing them to England ? no one says England are better or equal, compare to Spain or even France which are Germany's equal on the continent which is the whole point

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

What gripe? I’ve basically said the same thing the whole time, the only time I really tried to be antagonistic was when I said you were Brian with more swear words and you didn’t even bite (lol).

At this point, England can’t lose. We either get some mild heartbreak at getting expectedly knocked out and are gifted a chance to get a proper manager in. Or we keep getting lucky.

There’s nothing more to do than watch Southgate strangle all creativity and goals from this side of creative players and goalscorers and hope for the best.

Or the worst if you hate England.

Am I hallucinating? You literally said 'you don't give credit for his big knockout W' and I pointed out that I had, without qualification, done exactly that, twice. Then you ignored it in your next post. That gripe.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

5 minutes ago, Beelzebub said:

Why are you comparing them to England ? no one says England are better or equal, compare to Spain or even France which are Germany's equal on the continent which is the whole point

I can't actually believe what I'm seeing. 

I offered that England had won 1 game in 6, when it came to facing opposition that was considered equal or superior by myself. 
You then offered a shitty list of games in which you thought Germany were equals or underdogs with the same idea. That they struggled in those circumstances too. 

I gave my own list, and then pointed out that in mine or yours, Germany still had a FAR better record in games as equals or underdogs.

You now say 'why are you comparing them to England'. 
Is English that far your second language? if I offer a list of games, and you do the same literally for comparisons sake, yes, I'm going to compare them. Because that was the whole point. 

Edited July 8 by Devil-Dick Willie

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Am I hallucinating? You literally said 'you don't give credit for his big knockout W' and I pointed out that I had, without qualification, done exactly that, twice. Then you ignored it in your next post. That gripe.

Oh I was honestly just trying to get a reaction because I think this argument is silly and I’m being a twat

[OrangeKhrush]

Switzerland will feel pig sick they let that one go.  They had momentum at that point, just scored a goal and looked threatening.   Saka was brilliant and the goal was top stuff but Switzerland threw that away.

If embolo leaves that Schar ball in, it's a back post tap in and Switzerland win 2-1

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Oh I was honestly just trying to get a reaction because I think this argument is silly and I’m being a twat

And here I am neck deep in mouth breathers trying to be a nice boi and put aside my Australian language to make grounded points as a basis for debate. And you go trying to wind me up. What a naughty naught boy you are. 


It's 11.30, so I'll depart. I will point out that since I posted my manifesto not a single person has offered any counter to it except @Gunnersaurus, who felt Southgate would have done a bit better but probably still shit in the period prior.  Other than that, it's just been the basic point of 'okay we're shit but I still want us to win until we're knocked out'. Which of course you do and have every right to. And mr devil man making a list for comparisons sake but then saying 'nooooo you were supposed to compare germany to France and Italy' who aren't even the topic of discussion and are irrelevant to this conversation. I also couldn't come up with such a list because the only 4 teams who's games I tend to watch religiously are Germany, Australia, England and Hungary. Probably in that order of preference. 

@Spike take the night shift, use my baseline and take these fuckers to task please. If I wake up tomorrow and no Englishman has admitted their fucking dogshit team has reached 3 semis in 4 tournaments based on a fixture list that's kinder than a kindergarten teacher rather than any actual tactical or skill input, I will be sad. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

If @Tommy can stab someone in the neck for me, or possibly just wind up 2 or 3 people, I would also appreciate that greatly.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

And here I am neck deep in mouth breathers trying to be a nice boi and put aside my Australian language to make grounded points as a basis for debate. And you go trying to wind me up. What a naughty naught boy you are. 


It's 11.30, so I'll depart. I will point out that since I posted my manifesto not a single person has offered any counter to it except @Gunnersaurus, who felt Southgate would have done a bit better but probably still shit in the period prior.  Other than that, it's just been the basic point of 'okay we're shit but I still want us to win until we're knocked out'. Which of course you do and have every right to. And mr devil man making a list for comparisons sake but then saying 'nooooo you were supposed to compare germany to France and Italy' who aren't even the topic of discussion and are irrelevant to this conversation. I also couldn't come up with such a list because the only 4 teams who's games I tend to watch religiously are Germany, Australia, England and Hungary. Probably in that order of preference. 

@Spike take the night shift, use my baseline and take these fuckers to task please. If I wake up tomorrow and no Englishman has admitted their fucking dogshit team has reached 3 semis in 4 tournaments based on a fixture list that's kinder than a kindergarten teacher rather than any actual tactical or skill input, I will be sad. 

To your last point, haven’t I already admitted that several times though?

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

If @Tommy can stab someone in the neck for me, or possibly just wind up 2 or 3 people, I would also appreciate that greatly.

You lost me with the racist bit. 

 

[DeadLinesman]

7 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

They're wrong and Phil's bald head,

Leave me out of this sunshine.

[Gunnersaurus]

I got a bit of credit from @Devil-Dick Willie I'm gonna celebrate and go on a two day bender as my expectations are so low this makes me feel amazing 

[Dan+]

7 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The way I see it is we either inevitably fall apart at the first time we actually play someone decent, as has happened before under Southgate. And then worst case scenario is we’re knocked out and get a new manager. Or he keeps getting lucky as fuck.

Either way we can’t really lose

We can definitely lose because we've hit what is again a respectable stage of the competition, which we both know deep down will probably be enough to turn the FA's head and give him another tournament regardless of how we do from here. Lose to Holland, Southgate secures 2026 and I'd go as far as saying it's the worst tournament we could've had and it would've been better for us in the long run to have gone out in the groups or to Slovakia.

I can't give him credit for any of this this time around. It really has been a one in the thousands levels of fortune. None of this to me has felt by design. Should we go all the way, things may change, but for now I just think we're on a bit of a freak run carried almost entirely by individual quality - of which we should've been far more convincing with. To me a decent coach would've been able to rotate somewhat against some of the opposition we've had and has us fresher for the Dutch and the final if we made it. We've looked really leggy since day one.

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, Dan said:

We can definitely lose because we've hit what is again a respectable stage of the competition, which we both know deep down will probably be enough to turn the FA's head and give him another tournament regardless of how we do from here. Lose to Holland, Southgate secures 2026 and I'd go as far as saying it's the worst tournament we could've had and it would've been better for us in the long run to have gone out in the groups or to Slovakia.

I can't give him credit for any of this this time around. It really has been a one in the thousands levels of fortune. None of this to me has felt by design. Should we go all the way, things may change, but for now I just think we're on a bit of a freak run carried almost entirely by individual quality - of which we should've been far more convincing with. To me a decent coach would've been able to rotate somewhat against some of the opposition we've had and has us fresher for the Dutch and the final if we made it. We've looked really leggy since day one.

Tbf I was never really convinced by him and think all our recent tournament runs have been kind of flukey, so I’m genuinely not too concerned by that.

I think he’s a bad manager, but not a liar and he did seem to indicate before the tournament went on he thinks the only way he’s allowed to continue further is if he wins it. Maybe he’s wrong and the FA keep him on after this.

So worst case scenario is more Southgateball. For me, yeah that’s not great but ultimately… he’s better than the worst England coaches of my lifetime despite being absolutely inept tactically. So worst case scenario, we have a disappointing underperforming England side. But it’ll do the bare minimum, probably, and qualify for tournaments it should qualify for - which is better than some managers we’ve had by a lot tbh. Aka: the England I have known my entire life lol. Here, we lose nothing & gain nothing.

Second worst case scenario is we go out and he’s sacked. Then we get Potter or someone else that’s a bit meh in as England coach and see if they can do a job. Bit of an unknown but maybe we play some football that doesn’t put me to sleep.

Best case scenario, we win a couple of more games looking unconvincing as ever and we do something I’m not sure I ever thought I’d see happen in my lifetime: watch England win something. Made all the more funny if it happens under a manager I do not rate in a footballing sense at all & who somehow winds up the non-English just by being very lucky.

I honestly don’t rate Southgate at all, but watching the fume on here and especially social media by non-England fans, has me feeling okay with any of these 3 scenarios.

[Spike]

1 hour ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

@Spike take the night shift, use my baseline and take these fuckers to task please. If I wake up tomorrow and no Englishman has admitted their fucking dogshit team has reached 3 semis in 4 tournaments based on a fixture list that's kinder than a kindergarten teacher rather than any actual tactical or skill input, I will be sad. 

I have it in black and white that we as Australians are in fact [just] 'English people but cool', if that isn't a endorsement of the superiority of our moral fibre than what is. This is just another circumstance of the son having to beat the shit out of the father for being a dumb cunt, as we both have experience in for some reason.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

I have it in black and white that we as Australians are in fact [just] 'English people but cool', if that isn't a endorsement of the superiority of our moral fibre than what is. This is just another circumstance of the son having to beat the shit out of the father for being a dumb cunt, as we both have experience in for some reason.

Being cool doesn’t make you more moral. John Lennon is objectively cooler than Paul McCartney, but John Lennon was a wife beater which means McCartney probably had more morals.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Being cool doesn’t make you more moral. John Lennon is objectively cooler than Paul McCartney, but John Lennon was a wife beater which means McCartney probably had more morals.

All four Beatles have been accused of domestic violence in their lives, and they are from Liverpool which is closer to where you grew up, so with that logic you probably tried to test the 'one punch can kill' mantra you learned from Home and Away on Yoko Ono.

Home and Away is just TV mate, grow up.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

All four Beatles have been accused of domestic violence in their lives, and they are from Liverpool which is closer to where you grew up, so with that logic you probably tried to test the 'one punch can kill' mantra you learned from Home and Away on Yoko Ono.

Home and Away is just TV mate, grow up.

I’m pretty sure I learned one punch can kill from you.

Wait were you on Home & Away?

[Spike]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

I’m pretty sure I learned one punch can kill from you.

Wait were you on Home & Away?

Scott Irwin in 1997

[Reluctant Striker]

On England there are plenty not happy with how the side have been playing. There's no tangible tactical masterclass going on. We have won 1 match all tournament within 90 minutes. 1 further match in extra time. And 3 draws with 1 penalty shoot out win.

At our best, they have been matches we would win easily. At our worst they are the matches we can easily mess up. And now it's Netherlands & if we squeak through that, it's Spain or France.

Will it be celebrated if they win the tournament? Absolutely. Had we won in 96 & 20/21 we may have had more room for true perfectionism. But right now we just need a big W.

35 minutes ago, Dan said:

We can definitely lose because we've hit what is again a respectable stage of the competition, which we both know deep down will probably be enough to turn the FA's head and give him another tournament regardless of how we do from here. Lose to Holland, Southgate secures 2026 and I'd go as far as saying it's the worst tournament we could've had and it would've been better for us in the long run to have gone out in the groups or to Slovakia.

I can't give him credit for any of this this time around. It really has been a one in the thousands levels of fortune. None of this to me has felt by design. Should we go all the way, things may change, but for now I just think we're on a bit of a freak run carried almost entirely by individual quality - of which we should've been far more convincing with. To me a decent coach would've been able to rotate somewhat against some of the opposition we've had and has us fresher for the Dutch and the final if we made it. We've looked really leggy since day one.

I don't see Southgate continuing even if we win the tournament. I think he'll consider it the right time to let someone else try at the North American World Cup.

[Tommy]

Guess who is going to be the referee at England vs. Netherlands 

[Viva la FCB+]

46 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Guess who is going to be the referee at England vs. Netherlands 

Ah man i completely forgot about his unhinged whinging after that. This is kinda poetic. 

[Dan+]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tbf I was never really convinced by him and think all our recent tournament runs have been kind of flukey, so I’m genuinely not too concerned by that.

I think he’s a bad manager, but not a liar and he did seem to indicate before the tournament went on he thinks the only way he’s allowed to continue further is if he wins it. Maybe he’s wrong and the FA keep him on after this.

So worst case scenario is more Southgateball. For me, yeah that’s not great but ultimately… he’s better than the worst England coaches of my lifetime despite being absolutely inept tactically. So worst case scenario, we have a disappointing underperforming England side. But it’ll do the bare minimum, probably, and qualify for tournaments it should qualify for - which is better than some managers we’ve had by a lot tbh. Aka: the England I have known my entire life lol. Here, we lose nothing & gain nothing.

Second worst case scenario is we go out and he’s sacked. Then we get Potter or someone else that’s a bit meh in as England coach and see if they can do a job. Bit of an unknown but maybe we play some football that doesn’t put me to sleep.

Best case scenario, we win a couple of more games looking unconvincing as ever and we do something I’m not sure I ever thought I’d see happen in my lifetime: watch England win something. Made all the more funny if it happens under a manager I do not rate in a footballing sense at all & who somehow winds up the non-English just by being very lucky.

I honestly don’t rate Southgate at all, but watching the fume on here and especially social media by non-England fans, has me feeling okay with any of these 3 scenarios.

I don't even think it's necessarily just Southgate himself though, I think the FA want him there more than he wants to be there. The way he'd been acting early doors in this tournament was peculiar, almost as if he just wanted this over with ASAP. The performances felt a bit like that as well. I think it would've all made far more sense if Bellingham hadn't scored against Slovakia, but here we are.

DDW made a quite interesting point about our best tournament performance under him actually being 2022. I can see that. We had three wins by 3+ goals, topped our group, knocked out a tricky Senegal with ease and fell to a side who were probably as good as the winners Argentina. I think having watched what has panned out this time around there's a case that despite exiting in an earlier round, this tournament hasn't lived up to that one. It was the one tournament where I don't think he really had much luck with the draws.

There's a real case for me that he has delivered par from pretty much day one of his tenure. He's beaten the majority of teams he's expected to beat. He's hardly beaten anybody who he wasn't. The constant that goes against him is that he's lost a lot of the tight 50/50s. Croatia, Italy, arguably France.

England haven't been good for pretty much any of our lifetimes though. We hardly ever turn up in tournaments. Hodgson was a disgrace in 2016, a tournament that I rank as England's worst of my footballing lifetime (born in 1993 but I'll judge anything from 2002 onwards) and yet I think we were seconds from basically equalling that this time around with almost eerie similarities. 2014 was abysmal as well, tough group but but into context by the fact Costa Rica ended up topping it, so was it really that tough? 2012 decent group effort, pretty bad knockout showing. 2010 a disgrace, 2008 didn't even qualify, 2006, 2004 and 2002 all pretty much par for me - very much on the end of tight margins which seems to be the theme with England, but the theme as well is that in all of them we weren't given kind draws. Southgate's luck with draws has been barely believable and he's still yet to convert it into a trophy.

There's a lot of arguing going on in here but I think the truth is to be revealed this week and that nobody can really definitively say. If England go out this week I think basically every word DDW has said has been correct, and up until now, it's correct because we haven't won anything. If England do end up winning this tournament though, everything that you, Stan etc.. say about not caring about the performance if we're winning is totally valid. I think the not caring about the performance is fine when a trophy is won, but up until then, with no precedent of this actually delivering England any tangible success then I can't make any case for it.

We shall see. It's going to be interesting. This has provided a quite interesting read for me in the last hour or so