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Batard

Managers ‘stealing a living’

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Alan Pardew has managed Newcastle, Crystal Palace, West Ham and now West Brom. 

Tony Pulis helmed Stoke, Crystal Palace and West Brom.

Sam Allardyce prior to Everton managed (amongst others but specifically for this point) Newcastle, West Ham, Sunderland & Crystal Palace.

David Moyes after what is considered successful period at Everton, after failing at Manchester United, managed Sunderland and now has the hot seat at West Ham.

You won’t have failed to notice the tier of clubs here having all at some point recycled one of these British managers. Managers who journalists and ex-pros will complain don’t get a chance at clubs when they’re overlooked for foreign and perhaps better qualified coaches. You can add Steve Bruce to this list potentially as well.

My badly made point here is that these managers are ... shit. They’re not winners. They’re not worthy of better jobs based off of their managerial careers. When people bleat about young British managers not getting a chance, it’s not because of Marco Silva, Antonio Conte or Claude Puel, managers with proven records outside of England, it’s because of the sad sack collective of British managers who continue to steal a living delivering nothing but still hyping themselves up. 

The actual young British coaches, the likes of Gary Rowett and Paul Heckingbottom they’re overlooked for jobs because of their lack of experience ... but would either be worse than Alan Pardew? If Paul Clement gets the bullet at Swansea; you can bet your sheep that Tony Pulis will be appointed. And should a foreign coach get the role, the usual cries of British managers being overlooked will be peddled in dismay at Pulis missing out. 

Achieving survival is all these managers can actually say they’re capable of. Well maybe not Moyes. They’re not going to win trophies. They’re not going to bring new ideas. They’re stealing a living. 

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After watching Stokes performances recently, we can Mark Hughes to this list as well.

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Moyes took Everton to 4th and a number of other European qualifications, failed at Man Utd and arguably has an excuse for Sociedad and Sunderland if you give him the benefit of the doubt so West Ham is make or break for him before he really falls into this category.

Despite taking Bolton to 6th or so once, Allardyce falls into the "not a winner" category too. Maybe if he does something as Everton boss we can reassess that, but he also has the England corruption debacle hanging over his head. I wouldn't go as far as "stealing a living" though as when you pay for Allardyce you're paying for Premier League survival and he has always been successful in delivering that.

Pulis is a poor man's Allardyce, a one trick pony, did well with Stoke but it's painfully obvious how limited he is when he reaches a certain ceiling. At least Moyes and Allardyce have got into Europe and flirted with the odd cup final.

Pardew is an odd one, took Newcastle to a high finish and Palace to a cup final so arguably a cut above Pulis in that regard but also less reliable in staving off relegation form (off the top of my head).

I wouldn't say any of them are shit, or that they're stealing a living, because Allardyce and Pulis in particular have been brought in as fire fighters at various clubs and been successful in keeping them in the Premier League which is what said clubs are paying for. Out of the four I'd say Pardew is probably the one who least deserves to be given more chances. Pulis might join him soon, as will Moyes if West Ham end up sinking under his watch. Unless Allardyce somehow takes Everton down it's hard to put him into this category as he's been employed by about half a dozen clubs to stay in the Premier League and he's always succeeded in that.

EDIT (completely contradicted myself so reworded)

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You make some good Points. I was being deliberately controversial - although I really do think they’re all dreadfully inept managers beyond fire fighting - but the real question is,  @RandoEFC, are they really better than the emerging managers? The true ‘young British managers’

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Moyes, Hughes, Allardyce, Redknapp and Hodgson did get a shot at something better than survival clubs but failed.

Pardew never got that chance because he could never hold form down long enough to attract interest.

Pulis should have got the Spurs job after Harry Redknapp :ph34r:

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9 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

Moyes, Hughes, Allardyce, Redknapp and Hodgson did get a shot at something better than survival clubs but failed.

Pardew never got that chance because he could never hold form down long enough to attract interest.

Pulis should have got the Spurs job after Harry Redknapp :ph34r:

I would say Everton appointing Allardyce on a two year deal is a retrograde step. I know they wanted Silva and couldn’t get him, but Allardyce won’t improve upon Koeman. Well they won’t get relegated. So maybe that’s all that matters.

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The majority named in the OP scream of a play safe, lack of ambition to me. Managers who've proven they will do nothing beyond keep a team up (in some cases get the boot before they can take them down, in others actually go down).

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7 hours ago, Batard said:

I would say Everton appointing Allardyce on a two year deal is a retrograde step. I know they wanted Silva and couldn’t get him, but Allardyce won’t improve upon Koeman. Well they won’t get relegated. So maybe that’s all that matters.

Koeman had us 19th so this is highly unlikely.

Allardyce is probably just someone to keep things steady until summer. We had to employ someone. It's not the step we should be taking but it's better than Koeman and it's better than nobody so here we are. As for the length of contract, that's irrelevant, because if we want him gone in the summer he'll be gone and we had to offer it because if I was Allardyce I wouldn't have come out of retirement to basically serve as a long term caretaker manager on a 6 month contract either.

People have criticised us for taking too long to employ a new manager and in the next breath accused us of "panicking" and others criticise us for trying to go after big names and in the next breath say we're being unambitious by appointing Allardyce. It's hard to take seriously anymore. 

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I think its basically a given now for young British coaches, You want to manager a premier league club?, Then get one promoted through the Championship.

It's that straight forward cause no Premier League club will gamble its status on you.

To class the managers originally stated in this thread as Shit, is a pretty dumb thing to say.

Not sure if anyone has noticed, but for some clubs to keep their Premier League status, is pretty much like making the CL for others, so that list of managers given, who on the whole have wonderful records at keeping clubs in the top flight, earning those clubs £100M a time, are far better than the description given.

Rowett and Heckingbottom need to get their finger out n get promoted, afterall, the club presently in seventh position in the PL manager did just that and even he was overlooked by Everton Football Club.

 

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There are 92 professional clubs in England, as tedious as it is watching the same old boys get the same old jobs after getting sacked from similar positions, stealing a living is an exaggeration.

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5 minutes ago, Danny said:

There are 92 professional clubs in England, as tedious as it is watching the same old boys get the same old jobs after getting sacked from similar positions, stealing a living is an exaggeration.

Maybe. Maybe not. Perhaps this is simply prosaic thinking at the clubs. I wouldn't even put it down to a lack of ambition, I'd say more so a colossal fear of failure. However, if clubs are serious about building a legacy or achieving an identity, they have to start somewhere. It wasn't so long ago Manchester City were in the lower depths of English football. As much as spending big has helped, creating the culture behind the scenes by appointing people who share the same footballing ethos has underpinned everything they've done in recent years. You simply cannot understate how important it is having a team of people sharing a vision. The managers I've mentioned are old school British, the single point of failure. They come in drop the coaching staff and want to do it all. I don't think in the modern game that this is going to work anymore. Your vibe attracts the tribe. Hiring one of the managers I've listed isn't progressive thinking. I would advocate the likes of Pardew actually get back into the lower leagues and reinvent themselves. 

... But when I think about, I really do believe they're stealing a living xD

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What are these young managers doing? Having a good 6 months or season with Nottingham Forest or Millwall is all well and good, and I can understand why fans and neutrals want to see new blood in the Premier League, but from the perspective of an owner of a multi billion pound entity like a Premier League football club, gambling on somebody who has looked decent at a lower level over someone like Pulis who has achieved your stated objective of staying in the top flight multiple times already, would be absolute stupidity.

We can talk progressive but the most recent club that tried to do what people call "progressive" was Palace with De Boer and had they not sacked him and resorted to Hodgson instead they'd be in the Championship next season which is the opposite of progress. Swansea employed an English manager from a lower league in Paul Clement and they're headed down.

The only English managers that have earned a shot at a bigger job are Dyche, possibly Hughton and maybe Howe. People like Rowett aren't in the conversation and won't be until they've managed in the top flight. You could make a case that Everton, Southampton and Leicester could be looking at people like that but why? At the end of the day people call people like Howe "exciting young talents" because they finish 15th with Bournemouth, which I'm not under playing as an achievement, but is that the success criteria for a club like Southampton? 

We just have to accept that clubs don't actually have a responsibility to give managers a chance just because they're British and they've met expectations at a lower club. It's like if I teach decent lessons for 6 months then go and ask to be head of the maths department because "it would be nice to see young British teachers given a chance".

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8 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

What are these young managers doing? Having a good 6 months or season with Nottingham Forest or Millwall is all well and good, and I can understand why fans and neutrals want to see new blood in the Premier League, but from the perspective of an owner of a multi billion pound entity like a Premier League football club, gambling on somebody who has looked decent at a lower level over someone like Pulis who has achieved your stated objective of staying in the top flight multiple times already, would be absolute stupidity.

We can talk progressive but the most recent club that tried to do what people call "progressive" was Palace with De Boer and had they not sacked him and resorted to Hodgson instead they'd be in the Championship next season which is the opposite of progress. Swansea employed an English manager from a lower league in Paul Clement and they're headed down.

The only English managers that have earned a shot at a bigger job are Dyche, possibly Hughton and maybe Howe. People like Rowett aren't in the conversation and won't be until they've managed in the top flight. You could make a case that Everton, Southampton and Leicester could be looking at people like that but why? At the end of the day people call people like Howe "exciting young talents" because they finish 15th with Bournemouth, which I'm not under playing as an achievement, but is that the success criteria for a club like Southampton? 

We just have to accept that clubs don't actually have a responsibility to give managers a chance just because they're British and they've met expectations at a lower club. It's like if I teach decent lessons for 6 months then go and ask to be head of the maths department because "it would be nice to see young British teachers given a chance".

So you can see the paradox? The complaints that young British managers are being blocked from jobs by foreigners ... when in fact it’s clubs maintaining the status quo. 

The reality is you don’t give people opportunities to succeed, it makes it significantly harder for them to do so. Remember it’s not about individuals stepping aside, it’s being given the chance to have ability and potential recognized. Things are never so black and white, there are always other shades and here is one of them. 

I’m content to call out the established nonsense that British managers don’t get a chance. There’s an element of circular logic in suggesting you have to have managed at the top level to be able to manage at the top level. Alan Pardew is not better equipped or qualified than most managers in the Championship. 

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3 minutes ago, Batard said:

So you can see the paradox? The complaints that young British managers are being blocked from jobs by foreigners ... when in fact it’s clubs maintaining the status quo. 

The reality is you don’t give people opportunities to succeed, it makes it significantly harder for them to do so. Remember it’s not about individuals stepping aside, it’s being given the chance to have ability and potential recognized. Things are never so black and white, there are always other shades and here is one of them. 

I’m content to call out the established nonsense that British managers don’t get a chance. There’s an element of circular logic in suggesting you have to have managed at the top level to be able to manage at the top level. Alan Pardew is not better equipped or qualified than most managers in the Championship. 

Fair enough but it's the Premier League. Managers clamour to have a crack at the Premier League from across the world which is why it's so hard for Championship managers to compete with Puel (title winner in France), Koeman (title winner in Holland), Pellegrino (cup finalist in Spain), Silva (cup winner in Portugal) etc.

Maybe the solution for English managers who hit the glass ceiling is to go and fill the gaps left in Europe by these managers and build the CV they'll probably never get a chance to in England.

Admittedly, the Pardew and co cycle has gotten beyond tedious. What we really need is for West Brom to get relegated along with Swansea when they employ Pulis to show that these guys have had their day and it's time to move on.

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If more promising young British managers had the balls to properly have a go in another country - and not just do a Moyes and turn up with no real effort to adapt or learn the language - we might be able judge better which ones have elite potential.

Unless you did something insane and took a mid-table championship side to the PL as league winners, or beat Celtic to some silverware in Scotland, or take Celtic on an Ajax-style run in Europe, it's hard to imagine what you could do in Britain to stake your claim to a big PL job. 

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Why would you not appoint someone proven to make you over one hundred million pounds if you're a Stoke, Palace, West Brom etc.?

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These names aren’t appointing themselves, it’s a case of club owners with a lack of ambition other than to stay in the Premier League and it is the Stoke’s, West Ham’s and Everton’s who should be getting slated, not these managers. 

 

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8 hours ago, The Palace Fan said:

Why would you not appoint someone proven to make you over one hundred million pounds if you're a Stoke, Palace, West Brom etc.?

If a club is prepared to accept mediocrity and stagnation for 100m, then maybe that highlights a critical failing in the game. 

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I wouldn't rule out the owners believing they are appointing a manager who can take them to new heights. In some cases they probably briefly do before regressing. 

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54 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

I wouldn't rule out the owners believing they are appointing a manager who can take them to new heights. In some cases they probably briefly do before regressing. 

I think it's probably a combination of panic and a lack of due diligence. No one appointing Alan Pardew does so thinking they're going to do anything but descend down the league.

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1 hour ago, Batard said:

If a club is prepared to accept mediocrity and stagnation for 100m, then maybe that highlights a critical failing in the game. 

I'd rather that than gamble on employing another Frank DeBoer to be honest. That's how teams in our position eventually drop.

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13 minutes ago, Batard said:

I think it's probably a combination of panic and a lack of due diligence. No one appointing Alan Pardew does so thinking they're going to do anything but descend down the league.

Maybe now, but Palace were swindled by Pardew's mates in the media and around the club who were ignorant of his failings because of their hatred of Newcastle United. Ian Wright particularly. 

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14 minutes ago, Batard said:

I think it's probably a combination of panic and a lack of due diligence. No one appointing Alan Pardew does so thinking they're going to do anything but descend down the league.

Alan Pardew improved us significantly in the first half of his reign. He gave us a cup run and turned us in to a top half team. Whilst it didn't end on ideal terms some of the views towards him are somewhat warped.

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13 minutes ago, The Palace Fan said:

Alan Pardew improved us significantly in the first half of his reign. He gave us a cup run and turned us in to a top half team. Whilst it didn't end on ideal terms some of the views towards him are somewhat warped.

He did the same at Newcastle. Long term the man becomes fixated on himself which I highly suspect is the reason his teams implode. 

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There's one English coach doing decent overseas. Not a fashionable enough name to get a chance at home though. Graham Potter.

Shocking that he's the only English manager in European competition out of 48 teams given the pedigree of English football.

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1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

 

There's one English coach doing decent overseas. Not a fashionable enough name to get a chance at home though. Graham Potter.

Shocking that he's the only English manager in European competition out of 48 teams given the pedigree of English football.

He was on a podcast recently. His story is quite something. He’s seen as a hero there.

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If English Managers want to succeed then they need to go to countries in Europe to build a reputation as the culture of quick sackings in England does nothing to help the development of Managers.

If this culture had existed years ago then the likes of Moyes, Pardew and Allardyce would not be getting jobs. David Moyes would have been sacked for Evertons finish in 2003/04, Sam Allardyce would have been sacked for nearly taking Bolton down in 2002/03, and Alan Pardew would have been going for failing to get West Ham out The Championship in 2003/04. 

The next generation of Managers after them are the ones that have suffered. The likes of Gary Monk at Swansea, Steve Clarke at West Brom and Nigel Adkins at Southampton who were all sacked for doing rather well and have never recovered. 

If Graham Potter had managed clubs over here he would probably have been written off after six months the at a shit house like Wigan.

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