The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Redcanuck]

12 hours ago, Stan said:

I just cannot fathom how anyone can not agree to a ceasefire to stop civilians being killed.

Obscene.

The calls for a ceasefire have nothing to do with stopping civilians from being killed.  It's to stop the Israeli offensive.  It is designed to protect Hamas, to stop Israel from eliminating them and allow them to kill again another day. A ceasefire now will benefit Hamas , it will allow them to escape being fully punished for what they did on October 7th and it will allow them to claim victory.  If they are not finished now, the next time they attack Israel it will be worse. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Redcanuck

[...Dan]

Israel isn't interested in getting the hostages back.

[DeadLinesman]

5 hours ago, ...Dan said:

Israel isn't interested in getting the hostages back.

Never were to be fair. What’s 200 lives when you’ve been green lit to finally carry out the mass genocide you’ve been frothing at the mouth to commit for the past 40 years.

[6666]

Netanyahu has wanted to do this for a long time. There is no "we regretfully have to" angle to this. This is him living out his dream. Israelis dying is just the excuse he needed to go from close to the line, to fully over the line.

[MUFC]

 

[MUFC]

 

[Harry]

Statement from former Australian prime minister's

[OrangeKhrush]

the holy lands continue to spill blood, conflicts remain religious irrespective of the modern society.  this feud pre-dates the Roman Empire, it goes to when the Philistines invaded Canaan and Judea as the most powerful army in the known world. 

today it is a power struggle between the three dominant religions.   i joined a kibbutz in 2002, I've been to Jerusalem and there is no place on earth that you can feel hatred and malevolence.

I'm kind of tired of this while the people who could help seem happier to send munitions rather than step in as peace keepers. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

20 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

the holy lands continue to spill blood, conflicts remain religious irrespective of the modern society.  this feud pre-dates the Roman Empire, it goes to when the Philistines invaded Canaan and Judea as the most powerful army in the known world. 

today it is a power struggle between the three dominant religions.   i joined a kibbutz in 2002, I've been to Jerusalem and there is no place on earth that you can feel hatred and malevolence.

I'm kind of tired of this while the people who could help seem happier to send munitions rather than step in as peace keepers. 

Think this explanation, war as  a religious struggle, falls a bit short. Although some of the issues might be religion-induced, I'd be stupefied, if the marginalasation of Palestinians, and remarkable gap in standard of living between both nationalities would not massively contribute to the tensions. Although, I'm looking at this conflict from afar, this problems appear to have more social and ethnical roots to me than being a modern day religious crusade. In this regard, can see some similarities to the issues Northern Ireland had until the Good Friday Agreement and might be still having virulently.

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 28/10/2023 at 05:29, Danny said:

The irony in their claims of anti-semitism is that they are extremely Islamophobic in nature too, their arguments link Palestinians to ISIS and whoever else. 

There is a complicated history between Israel, Palestine and other nations in the region. But what cannot be denied, what is factual, is that Palestinians have routinely had their land stolen from them, by Israel and by Britain. To invoke suggestions of anti-semitism, comparisons to the holocaust to remove the human rights of 2 million Palestinians in Gaza, close to half of that being children. To conflate “from the river to the sea” as anything other than freedom for people who’ve been stolen from by an oppressive force. Maniacs.

Not a Jewish issue, in fact Jewish people worldwide are rallying against them, inside Israel too.

I think both sides are openly genocidal tbh. Just one side actually has the means to carry out a genocide and the other side are going to get massively fucked for Hamas lashing out.

It’s pretty clear if there’s going to be any humanitarian hope for the people of Gaza, it’s got to be Egypt or Jordan taking them in because Israel’s not going to lift a finger other than taking Gaza from them.

[...Dan]

 

[OrangeKhrush]

22 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Think this explanation, war as  a religious struggle, falls a bit short. Although some of the issues might be religion-induced, I'd be stupefied, if the marginalasation of Palestinians, and remarkable gap in standard of living between both nationalities would not massively contribute to the tensions. Although, I'm looking at this conflict from afar, this problems appear to have more social and ethnical roots to me than being a modern day religious crusade. In this regard, can see some similarities to the issues Northern Ireland had until the Good Friday Agreement and might be still having virulently.

They are their own nation but have failed to host an election since Hamas used force to ursurp power.    If people want change they should exercise their right to it.   Israel has no obligation to look after Palastinians unless they are in Israel as citizens or under work permits.   Qatar and others have sponsored billions to Palastine and instead of development it was put to weapons of war.  

The Palestinians are decedents of the Philistines who lived in the region of Gaza,  up to Ashkalon and Ashdod,  that was the extent of their historical title.   The West Bank was never theirs.   If resolving this on historical title is the to bring resolution then fine so be it,  I have my doubts whether giving them land will actually create peace,  after all Israel has given them Gaza and large parts of the west bank and it has done nothing.  

[Cicero]

Quality verbal gymnastics from DeSantis here. 

PBD - "Do you believe Netanyahu is taking advantage of the United States?" shows video of Netanyahu blatantly saying they can oppress Palestine because the USA will let them. 

DeSantis - "No I believe they are defending themselves from a terrorist organization"

PBD - "Do you believe this conflict will inevitably end on USA soil?"

DeSantis - "No I think we already have our own terrorist issues with the borders being open". 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Cicero

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think it's a bit weird the US gave weapons to Ukraine and put all sorts of conditions on them. Meanwhile the US is giving weapons to Israel, to target a much smaller area with a far higher likelihood of civilian casualties than anything Ukraine would be doing... and the US comes out and says there's no preconditions on how Israel can use these weapons. I think Ukraine's got a more legitimate reason to want to use the most advanced weapons possible on the Russian military that's invaded it than Israel has justification for this collective punishment of Gaza because Hamas uses innocents as human shields for propaganda purposes.

I mean ultimately it probably comes down to the fact that Hamas can't respond with nuclear weapons but Russia can, but it also comes off as a ringing endorsement for Netanyahu's wartime strategy. And given Netanyahu's public support in Israel currently, or lack thereof, should the US be giving him this kind of public support? He is a big part of what happened on October 7th in all honesty and is he the right man to be leading Israel forward as they respond to that attack?

The architect of the failed status quo should probably be nowhere near the drawing board for what happens now that Hamas has thrown the status quo out the window after October 7th.

[MUFC]

Yemen.

[Harry]

Good op ed by Tony Blinken. US secretary of state.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/31/antony-blinken-biden-aid-ukraine-israel-gazans/

 

[Stan]

So Israel bombed a refugee camp, but caveated it with saying they killed a Hamas serial commander at the same time.

Collateral by using civilians as an excuse. 

And yet it still won't be called genocide. 

[OrangeKhrush]

the complications of warfare when a nation refuses to fight as an armed force governed under the Geneva conventions and operates as a militarized militia.  Geneva conventions prohibit military facilities to be operated or conducted amongst civilians, it also prohibits non regalia and requires that an army must distinguish itself from civilians.

Hamas is the government of Palastine and should be forced to comply with rules of war.  the biggest condemnation should be the use of human shields and indoctrination of child soldiers both have been witnessed in this conflict it creates a situation where Israel can claim proximate risk to their armed forces by militants disguising as civilians which is happens, there only needs to be a risk for the action to be approximate use of force.

I am shocked nobody has stepped in to play as peace keepers and separate the schoolboy fight, in actual fact the evidence shows America wanting this to get a lot worse.

[OrangeKhrush]

21 hours ago, Cicero said:

Quality verbal gymnastics from DeSantis here. 

PBD - "Do you believe Netanyahu is taking advantage of the United States?" shows video of Netanyahu blatantly saying they can oppress Palestine because the USA will let them. 

DeSantis - "No I believe they are defending themselves from a terrorist organization"

PBD - "Do you believe this conflict will inevitably end on USA soil?"

DeSantis - "No I think we already have our own terrorist issues with the borders being open". 

this is both sides of the aisle, America's booming business is war and every one of these people are in the pocket of the industrial military complex.  

Wars are the only thing democrats and republicans agree on, so sad really.

[Redcanuck]

Hamas continues to use the people of Gaza as "Human Shields " .  It places its military infrastructure among the local population,  it's command posts, military supplies and the fuel and food it steals from the aid packages are under hospitals, schools and mosque and refugee camps.   They fire their rockets from the rooftops of people 's apartments and houses.   When Israel bombs these locations, civilians die, their deaths are clearly on the heads of Hamas.  If Hamas cared one iota for the civilian population of Gaza, they would come out of their tunnels and fight on open ground.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Redcanuck

[Stan]

Forgive me if I'm missing something, and again I'm not taking any side and definitely not defending Hamas here, but where are all the pictures of any aftermath of Hamas firing rockets into Israel? Which cities or villages or settlements in Israel are being attacked or bombed by Hamas? 

I'm aware Ashkelon suffered some hits soon after the 7th Oct event, but I don't see anything in the news about where Israeli cities are being targeted. There's a lot of attention, rightly so, about southern cities of the Gaza strip being obliterated, and it makes me sick to the stomach seeing the damage and hammering they've received there. But that's all BBC or Sky or ITV seem to show here. Their reporters seem 'safe' in the likes of Jerusalem or other parts of West Bank, but I don't recall seeing any pictures or videos or images of buildings targeted by Hamas.

To me, it begs the question of how much will Israel continue to bombard Gaza and the innocent civilians within, whilst continuing to seemingly hide under the 'Hamas officials are hiding within'?

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

32 minutes ago, Stan said:

Forgive me if I'm missing something, and again I'm not taking any side and definitely not defending Hamas here, but where are all the pictures of any aftermath of Hamas firing rockets into Israel? Which cities or villages or settlements in Israel are being attacked or bombed by Hamas? 

I'm aware Ashkelon suffered some hits soon after the 7th Oct event, but I don't see anything in the news about where Israeli cities are being targeted. There's a lot of attention, rightly so, about southern cities of the Gaza strip being obliterated, and it makes me sick to the stomach seeing the damage and hammering they've received there. But that's all BBC or Sky or ITV seem to show here. Their reporters seem 'safe' in the likes of Jerusalem or other parts of West Bank, but I don't recall seeing any pictures or videos or images of buildings targeted by Hamas.

To me, it begs the question of how much will Israel continue to bombard Gaza and the innocent civilians within, whilst continuing to seemingly hide under the 'Hamas officials are hiding within'?

 

I think rockets have been fired into Israel pretty regularly since October 7th - but there's far less casualties because Israel's got pretty effective defenses against Hamas rockets. They also haven't been the same sort of barrages that were used when Hamas attacked. Occasionally one gets through and there'll be a small number of casualties.

It's not going to grab the same headlines as the obliteration of Gaza. But both Hamas and Israel are purposely firing into where they know civilians are and they're both fucking arseholes for doing so.

I think it's a bit fucked too, the head of Hamas from the safety of his penthouse in Qatar saying that Palestinian civilians in Gaza aren't Hamas's responsibility, they're the UN and Israel's problem.

[Stan]

16 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think rockets have been fired into Israel pretty regularly since October 7th - but there's far less casualties because Israel's got pretty effective defenses against Hamas rockets. They also haven't been the same sort of barrages that were used when Hamas attacked. Occasionally one gets through and there'll be a small number of casualties.

It's not going to grab the same headlines as the obliteration of Gaza. But both Hamas and Israel are purposely firing into where they know civilians are and they're both fucking arseholes for doing so.

I think it's a bit fucked too, the head of Hamas from the safety of his penthouse in Qatar saying that Palestinian civilians in Gaza aren't Hamas's responsibility, they're the UN and Israel's problem.

Fair enough. 

I think it's getting to me just constantly seeing the news about it all. I feel so sorry for all civilians caught up in this who want no part in it

 

[OrangeKhrush]

There is a story going around that Israel and the west, namely west europe and north america will take on huge amounts of relocated people,  i am pretty sure that was not democratically decided but according to that rumour,  Israel is going to empty Gaza,  no other arab states will take the palastinians so again the undesirables will end up in places where people don't want them but to scared to say anything about it. 

Personally i don't think that story was true as America or the UK taking on mass refugees would lead to civil unrest.   I would say even france and germany at this point would decend into chaos if more are let in. 

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

There is a story going around that Israel and the west, namely west europe and north america will take on huge amounts of relocated people,  i am pretty sure that was not democratically decided but according to that rumour,  Israel is going to empty Gaza,  no other arab states will take the palastinians so again the undesirables will end up in places where people don't want them but to scared to say anything about it. 

Personally i don't think that story was true as America or the UK taking on mass refugees would lead to civil unrest.   I would say even france and germany at this point would decend into chaos if more are let in. 

Civil unrest? Are you sure?