Coronavirus (COVID-19) Outbreak

[RandoEFC+]

6 minutes ago, Bluewolf said:

 

So the big question is why have they waited until July 27th to bring it in as Mandatory when we should have been doing that right from the beginning... All this as well I might add when shops like Sainsbury's and Tesco's have abandoned their safe routes/one way systems around shops and have allowed people to gather in huge masses on beaches and protests etc.. Even as far back as just a couple of days ago Gove was saying one thing and Johnson another... It has been a cluster fuck of bad decision making since the get go and I pray people don't forget and start burying their heads in the sand when Johnson starts with his distraction tactics and flag waving/fist pumping make Britain great again Brexit shit.. 

The problem for them is that if it's a good idea now then it was a good idea 3 months ago so they're telling people to do it 3 months later than they should be. I've stopped paying as much attention to England now but most other countries seem to have had compulsory mask-wearing as a part of their process of lifting lockdown. Either that or they've just told their people it would be a good idea and they're more concerned about their health and or less bothered about wearing a mask than a large chunk of English people.

The lack of clear direction runs through this government's DNA though. Going back to the referendum, Johnson and Gove have always been of that "libertarian" mindset where they believe that people should make their own decisions regardless of what they're told by experts. People that work in transit or have degrees in international trade told us years ago that leaving the European Union would lead to more red tape, not less, and that we'd end up spending £700m on new border infrastructure as a result of leaving without a deal. But Boris trusts you and believes that you should have the right to choose to disagree with them if that's what your feelings tell you to do. Heard all of the scientists and health bodies tell you that masks will stop the spread of coronavirus? Well if you have a different opinion then Michael Gove trusts your instincts to do the right thing.

The libertarian view as they like to call it is an ideology like many others which works in theory, if you have perfect information flow and everyone acts in their logical best interests then they'll always make the right decisions for their own good. Unfortunately, neither of those factors are realistic so it doesn't work in practice. It's an unavoidable consequence that sometimes, people just need to be told what to do.

[nudge]

Mask wearing in public (both indoors and outdoors) was made mandatory here in the end of March, about a week after we went into lockdown. At some point in May, it was eased a bit and masks became mandatory indoors, in bus stops and public transportation only. Since the lockdown was lifted in June, masks are only recommended, but if the cases rise again to over 15 in 100000 of population, the government said it will make masks mandatory again. I don't really get the hissy fits about mask wearing, it's literally the easiest thing to do to help prevent the spread without huge inconvenience to anyone, while still being able to do things you normally do...

[Tommy]

3 minutes ago, nudge said:

 I don't really get the hissy fits about mask wearing

But muh freedom!!!!11

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, nudge said:

Mask wearing in public (both indoors and outdoors) was made mandatory here in the end of March, about a week after we went into lockdown. At some point in May, it was eased a bit and masks became mandatory indoors, in bus stops and public transportation only. Since the lockdown was lifted in June, masks are only recommended, but if the cases rise again to over 15 in 100000 of population, the government said it will make masks mandatory again. I don't really get the hissy fits about mask wearing, it's literally the easiest thing to do to help prevent the spread without huge inconvenience to anyone, while still being able to do things you normally do...

See, that to me is clear guidance and ruling from your government/hierarchy.

Over here we have ministers disagreeing with each other and government being ridiculously delayed in any guidance they do offer and several mixed messages from those in power. It screams incompetence when everyone doesn't sing from the same proverbial hymn sheet and just makes a mockery in trying to lead a country. 

To me I've seen a lot of fuss over the delayed guidance as opposed to actually wearing a mask (I know, there are some people who refuse to because they're just fucking idiots really and don't like having to make a decision themselves). But I think it's right to question why it's taken til end of July to make it mandatory to wear a mask when the virus hit UK, and badly, way back in March. There is the argument of wanting to protect the NHS and making sure they got PPE as well (but even then government seemed to mess that up with what they ordered from Turkey?!). Having said that, the peak of the virus was in April and heading in to May. There's about a 5-6 week period at the very minimum where it could have been made mandatory to wear face masks/coverings when going out. It just doesn't make sense to have it from 24th July when it could have been enforced earlier. Maybe if it was, it would have made people think twice about going to the shops/public transport unnecessarily before they were able to attain a mask (I appreciate there are mitigating circumstances where people had to go out). 

There's been several herds of horses that have bolted before this government shut the stable door. Too much too late!

[nudge]

10 minutes ago, Stan said:

See, that to me is clear guidance and ruling from your government/hierarchy.

Over here we have ministers disagreeing with each other and government being ridiculously delayed in any guidance they do offer and several mixed messages from those in power. It screams incompetence when everyone doesn't sing from the same proverbial hymn sheet and just makes a mockery in trying to lead a country. 

To me I've seen a lot of fuss over the delayed guidance as opposed to actually wearing a mask (I know, there are some people who refuse to because they're just fucking idiots really and don't like having to make a decision themselves). But I think it's right to question why it's taken til end of July to make it mandatory to wear a mask when the virus hit UK, and badly, way back in March. There is the argument of wanting to protect the NHS and making sure they got PPE as well (but even then government seemed to mess that up with what they ordered from Turkey?!). Having said that, the peak of the virus was in April and heading in to May. There's about a 5-6 week period at the very minimum where it could have been made mandatory to wear face masks/coverings when going out. It just doesn't make sense to have it from 24th July when it could have been enforced earlier. Maybe if it was, it would have made people think twice about going to the shops/public transport unnecessarily before they were able to attain a mask (I appreciate there are mitigating circumstances where people had to go out). 

There's been several herds of horses that have bolted before this government shut the stable door. Too much too late!

Oh yes, it's absolutely down to poor leadership, no doubt. To be fair, there have been a lot of mixed messages and misinformation throughout this pandemic, the WHO is a big culprit in all this, especially when it comes to the mask fiasco. Those last 6 months have clearly shown the levels of incompetence prevalent in high positions of governments and health authorities worldwide.

[Bluewolf]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

The problem for them is that if it's a good idea now then it was a good idea 3 months ago so they're telling people to do it 3 months later than they should be.

 

1 hour ago, nudge said:

Mask wearing in public (both indoors and outdoors) was made mandatory here in the end of March, about a week after we went into lockdown.

 

1 hour ago, nudge said:

I don't really get the hissy fits about mask wearing, it's literally the easiest thing to do to help prevent the spread without huge inconvenience to anyone,

 

57 minutes ago, Stan said:

See, that to me is clear guidance and ruling from your government/hierarchy.

Over here we have ministers disagreeing with each other and government being ridiculously delayed in any guidance they do offer and several mixed messages from those in power. It screams incompetence when everyone doesn't sing from the same proverbial hymn sheet and just makes a mockery in trying to lead a country. 

Wearing a mask is common sense and so far not heard anyone kicking off about having to wear one, at least not over here anyway, we tried to get them introduced at work in the early phases but our technical department were worried about the potential contamination threat so they booted the idea... Anyone that cares about someone they love family or friends would not be objecting to this but because it's come in so late in the day people are bound to fight it, it's just the way people are and the mixed messages don't help.. 

They know they are on dodgy ground with it that's why... pushing everyone back to work and easing of lockdown rules but also knowing that we could have a potential second wave has them worried.. The mentality of some of the public will be that if I can go protesting and lay around on a beach without having had to wear one why should I bother now it's all getting better?? All arse about face and I wouldn't really want to be the Police trying to enforce it shop after shop because some idiot is refusing to wear one.. they struggled with keeping people from gathering in groups and being out where they shouldn't be so I don't foresee them having any better luck trying to control this either... Going on the past with this lot it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't do another U-turn and drop the whole thing after 3 weeks anyway... 

[Honey Honey]

1 hour ago, Bluewolf said:

 

So the big question is why have they waited until July 27th to bring it in as Mandatory when we should have been doing that right from the beginning... All this as well I might add when shops like Sainsbury's and Tesco's have abandoned their safe routes/one way systems around shops and have allowed people to gather in huge masses on beaches and protests etc.. 

The first few months were spent debating whether masks work or not. Evidence was mixed. Studies since have found it to be effective for Coronavirus. The World Health Organisation only last month changed its guidance to say everyone should be wearing masks rather than their original stance of everyone infected should wear a mask. A part of the shift to masks is because you can have it and spread it and not know.

Despite mass protests, big beach crowds and Liverpool title celebrations there was no spike in cases. You can say that's luck and chance falling kindly or that the virus doesn't spread well outdoors, or both.

What we do know is the virus is spreading in enclosed places of poor hygiene and conditions. Slaughterhouses, factories, farm housing. 

Generally the population, myself included, are becoming less and less risk averse as time goes on.

[Bluewolf]

6 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

The first few months were spent debating whether masks work or not. Evidence was mixed. Studies since have found it to be effective for Coronavirus. The World Health Organisation only last month changed its guidance to say everyone should be wearing masks rather than their original stance of everyone infected should wear a mask. A part of the shift to masks is because you can have it and spread it and not know.

Despite mass protests, big beach crowds and Liverpool title celebrations there was no spike in cases. You can say that's luck and chance falling kindly or that the virus doesn't spread well outdoors, or both.

What we do know is the virus is spreading in enclosed places of poor hygiene and conditions. Slaughterhouses, factories, farm housing. 

Generally the population, myself included, are becoming less and less risk averse as time goes on.

Well that's fair enough if that's the case... shame our government have waited so long to bring it in when others had been doing so a long time before now.. even without the science it would have made sense to reduce the risks wherever possible as early as possible.. They are probably only doing it now because they finally have enough PPE on the shore to go around unlike before.. bit hard to enforce something if you don't even have the product available to do so... 

See you managed to get the Liverpool celebrations in there as well mate, had to be done, I was going to mention it but felt it might have tainted the seriousness of my post a tad.. 

[Bluewolf]

Just reading that shop staff will be excluded from having to wear masks.... 

[Mpache]

So do any of you believe you may have had COVID? Besides Cicero, Leicester Dan and Arsenal Dan that is. Whether you felt symptoms or not.

I WANT to believe I had it and was asymptomatic. My cousin's boyfriend spent Christmas with us when he was very sick and no one knew or even thought it could have been COVID. He was feeling the same symptoms. There were also 2 people with the virus in front of us on the humanitarian flight back to Canada.

No confirmation from my side though, I am hoping I had it so that if this does prove to create immunity I wouldn't have to worry anymore. You never know though.

[nudge]

27 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

The first few months were spent debating whether masks work or not. Evidence was mixed.

I would say that it was not really the case of evidence being mixed, but rather the case of there being few scientific studies on mask wearing by general public outside of medical setting + fear of mask hoarding which would have led to panic and mask shortages in hospitals. In other words, absence of evidence was mistaken for evidence of absence... while in reality, you don't need a scientific study to understand that any barrier on nose/mouth will play a part in preventing the spread of any virus which is primarily transmitted via droplets, it's just that different barriers (i.e. different materials used for mask + number of layers) will have different filtering efficacy. 

[Stan]

8 minutes ago, Mpache said:

So do any of you believe you may have had COVID? Besides Cicero, Leicester Dan and Arsenal Dan that is. Whether you felt symptoms or not.

I WANT to believe I had it and was asymptomatic. My cousin's boyfriend spent Christmas with us when he was very sick and no one knew or even thought it could have been COVID. He was feeling the same symptoms. There were also 2 people with the virus in front of us on the humanitarian flight back to Canada.

No confirmation from my side though, I am hoping I had it so that if this does prove to create immunity I wouldn't have to worry anymore. You never know though.

@Harvsky had it as well I think. 

Have you had a test?

[nudge]

10 minutes ago, Mpache said:

So do any of you believe you may have had COVID? Besides Cicero, Leicester Dan and Arsenal Dan that is. Whether you felt symptoms or not.

I WANT to believe I had it and was asymptomatic. My cousin's boyfriend spent Christmas with us when he was very sick and no one knew or even thought it could have been COVID. He was feeling the same symptoms. There were also 2 people with the virus in front of us on the humanitarian flight back to Canada.

No confirmation from my side though, I am hoping I had it so that if this does prove to create immunity I wouldn't have to worry anymore. You never know though.

I had a weird flu-like thing in December, where it hurt me to breathe and a bad cough which persisted for at least 2-3 weeks. Think December was too early to have it, though.

[Mpache]

5 minutes ago, Stan said:

@Harvsky had it as well I think. 

Have you had a test?

Not yet, might be worth it. I'm not sure yet.

1 minute ago, nudge said:

I had a weird flu-like thing in December, where it hurt me to breathe and a bad cough which persisted for at least 2-3 weeks. Think December was too early to have it, though.

Well Cicero's wife had it in December according to him.

[Bluewolf]

Interesting timeline that follows this.... 

January First Government SAGE meeting held and while other countries were already wearing masks there was no mention of doing it here

January 29th  First recorded cases over here and threat is moved from Low to Moderate

February  3rd The New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group suggested those with symptoms should be wearing masks in public ( if tolerable ) 

March Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jenny Harries says wearing a mask covering " Is not a good idea" because it traps the virus and you breathe it in.... 

March 23rd  We go into full lockdown but no mention of masks or the wearing of mentioned at all in Johnsons address to the public, Days later George Gao Head of China's Centre for Disease Control and Prevention said " The big mistake in the US and Europe  in my opinion is that people aren't wearing masks "

April 2nd Germany's Robert Koch Institute changes it's recommendation from only those having the virus should wear masks to ' Everyone should wear masks'

April 4th Professor Jonathan Van Tam the UK's Deputy Chief medical Officer reiterates that for those not sick it's 'not recommended' that people wear face masks as there is no evidence that it prevents the spread of the virus in our Society

April 10th The CDC recommends that people should use face coverings in all public places, Bill Keevil  Professor of Environmental Health at the university of Southampton claims that non medical masks 'will not protect you' and called it a 'knee jerk' reaction, meanwhile pressure grows on the Government as other countries start to bring in face coverings, Chris Whitty claims the evidence for wearing masks is 'weak' and only works in certain circumstances. 

April 17th  Sadiq Khan tweets that people should start following suit with others advice and start wearing masks where possible to help stop the spread. Transport Secretary Grant Shapps say 'the evidence is mixed' 

April 24th Matt Hancock talks about evolving with the science but as of today the Government position had not changed. 

April 30th Johnson recovers from the virus and uses the term 'face covering' for the first time

May 5th Patrick Vallance Chief Scientific Advisor tells the Government the data is not straightforward and claims that evidence that masks prevent the virus is 'marginal but positive'

May 10th Johnson announces the easing of Lockdown and suggests that masks should be worn in 'enclosed spaces' and for meeting people they don't normally meet  for example Public Transport and where social distancing is not possible. 

June 4th Grant Shapps announces that masks will be mandatory on all Public Transport from June 15th and will play a role in helping us 'protect each other'

June 5th WHO changes it's position on the use of masks

July 10th Johnson states that the rules of wearing of face coverings should be stricter in confined spaces

July 12th  Gove thinks 'common sense' should apply 

July 13th The Government announces that masks will be mandatory in all shops from July 24th

 

 

 

[carefreeluke]

Who knows of course but does anyone think there will be another big outbreak or second wave come winter?

[Harry]

5 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

The very simple thing about masks is that it's not really a hardship in any way to wear one and they certainly aren't going to increase your chances of catching or passing on the virus. Even if there's a little bit of doubt over how effective they are, it's not like anyone's really impeding your liberty or freedom by asking you to wear one.

I can sympathise to a slight degree with the liberty argument. I would like to have a choice on wearing a mask rather than have it legally imposed on me.

I that's not because I desire to be irresponsible. I already gladly wear one anywhere that it would add value, but if I'm taking my son for a walk in our low density suburban neighbourhood where we come no close than 5 metres to anyone, I would prefer not to wear, as he's an anxious 4 year old and I don't want to heighten his fears of this whole thing.

[Mpache]

19 minutes ago, Harry said:

I can sympathise to a slight degree with the liberty argument. I would like to have a choice on wearing a mask rather than have it legally imposed on me.

I that's not because I desire to be irresponsible. I already gladly wear one anywhere that it would add value, but if I'm taking my son for a walk in our low density suburban neighbourhood where we come no close than 5 metres to anyone, I would prefer not to wear, as he's an anxious 4 year old and I don't want to heighten his fears of this whole thing.

Completely agreed. I wear my masks when I go indoors or anywhere that it is needed to be worn, but I also live in a suburban area and I usually don't go close to anyone either when going for walks.

[RandoEFC+]

17 minutes ago, Harry said:

I can sympathise to a slight degree with the liberty argument. I would like to have a choice on wearing a mask rather than have it legally imposed on me.

I that's not because I desire to be irresponsible. I already gladly wear one anywhere that it would add value, but if I'm taking my son for a walk in our low density suburban neighbourhood where we come no close than 5 metres to anyone, I would prefer not to wear, as he's an anxious 4 year old and I don't want to heighten his fears of this whole thing.

Yeah but you're not a moron and you actually have common sense and a basic understanding of where the risks are there and when they aren't, as well as understanding the concept of making a small sacrifice to potentially improve the health of your entire society. Our government's assumption that every member of the public is like you is an unrealistic ideology.

It only takes a small minority of "libertarians" to choose not to wear a mask because their feelings have a greater influence on their opinions and choices than bare facts do to increase the risk of the virus being spread.

[Honey Honey]

43 minutes ago, carefreeluke said:

Who knows of course but does anyone think there will be another big outbreak or second wave come winter?

Dunno about big outbreak but it's going to be interesting in October when cold and flu season is back. The amount of tests required will be massive. What will everyone do the moment they get the first symptom? Immediately isolate whole household and get tested? Unlikely.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, carefreeluke said:

Who knows of course but does anyone think there will be another big outbreak or second wave come winter?

Think it's quite likely, in my opinion. Will follow same cycle until a vaccine is found. 

[Bluebird Hewitt]

2 hours ago, nudge said:

I had a weird flu-like thing in December, where it hurt me to breathe and a bad cough which persisted for at least 2-3 weeks. Think December was too early to have it, though.

I had a bad cough and sweated like hell but never had the breathing issues which makes me think it was coincidental more than anything. 

However, I highlighted the part in bold as mine also occurred in December and due to articles like these.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52526554

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53106444

On top of China basically being dodgy as hell with it all (I can't remember but I think you live near China?), there's a good chance that you could have had it without knowing. 

Not to try and scare you or anything. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Bluebird Hewitt

[nudge]

1 minute ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

I had a bad cough and sweated like hell but never had the breathing issues which makes me think it was more coincidental more than anything. 

However, I highlighted the part in bold as mine also occurred in December and due to articles like these.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52526554

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53106444

On top of China basically being dodgy as hell with it all (I can't remember but I think you live near China as well?), there's a good chance that you could have had it without knowing. 

Not to try and scare you or anything. 

I read about that too, and it would make sense for it to have circulated undetected for a while. I thought at the time that it was a bit weird, didn't feel that bad in general but the breathing pain and coughing fits were a bit bizarre, and normally I rarely get ill at all... I thought it was due to me not being used to cold anymore as I actually flew back to Europe last year for what was supposed to be a few month holiday, couldn't possibly have chosen a worse time to do it  So I'm not sure what it was, but essentially, it doesn't matter now anyway haha.

[Carnivore Chris]

Like I said, I had it in January. I thought it was a shit cold but completely losing my sense of smell and taste and getting out of breath doing tasks that are usually nothing wasn't what I'd experienced before, well apart from when suffering asthma when I was younger and used to have minor attacks.

Losing my sense of smell and taste was horrible as my mother lost hers 10 years ago and hasn't regained it since, so I was shitting myself.

A bunch of us who were working together all had it. One lad was off work for a few week.

Also a scouser who I know who had it kept saying he thought he had bronchitis.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Carnivore Chris

[Harry]

Honestly I find it hard to believe that people here caught it in December or January.

No offence intended but if true then the corollary is that a virus that spreads like wildfire and causes 10% of those who catch it to be hospitalised and 1% to die went totally undetected without anyone noticing it was there in major economies for multiple months.