Copa America 2021 FINAL: Argentina 1 - 0 Brazil

[The Käiser]

9 hours ago, JoshBRFC said:

Very happy that Messi has his hands on an international trophy. His stats this year are absolutely insane considering he plays a much deeper role nowadays. 
 

The undisputed absolute goat. And the closest person to his level is Maradona. 

Didn’t someone named  pele win 3 World Cups?

or r u talking about Argentina players?  

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, The Käiser said:

Didn’t someone named  pele win 3 World Cups?

or r u talking about Argentina players?  

All time. 

[Eco]

Don't understand why people can claim 'such and such ' player is the GOAT and it's not even close, particularly in a team sport, and even more so in a sport like football which has seen great athletes from all over the world for over 100 years?  

[The Käiser]

7 minutes ago, Cicero said:

All time. 

It’s always difficult to declare one player best of all time because times change. Comparing apples and oranges 

stats are padded with more goals etc because there are more games 

As others said teammates are different amongst clubs. Look at lewandowski at Bayern v at Poland. 
 

level of competition has changed 

people say Messi never won international cup till yesterday.  Well maradona never won the top European club cup. He did win the Europa league equivalent like 1x? So...it’s ok to debate but there result will always be a matter of opinion. And that is difficult to change especially on a forum

 

[Cicero]

Personally, I measure quality and years of consistency. Messi for me is the best simply because he’s managed an elite level of goal scoring, dribbling, and chance creation/passing. Being the very best in all three categories for 10-12 years. 
 

Im pretty much aligned with @JoshBRFC. Only player close to him is Diego. 

[Eco]

4 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Personally, I measure quality and years of consistency. Messi for me is the best simply because he’s managed an elite level of goal scoring, dribbling, and chance creation/passing. Being the very best in all three categories for 10-12 years. 
 

Im pretty much aligned with @JoshBRFC. Only player close to him is Diego. 

A similar argument could be made for Ronaldo, no? He's been at the top in scoring for just as long, has done it at 3 different clubs, and has performed better on the international stage. Even more impressive about Ronaldo to me, is that as he's gotten older, his game has adapted and yet he's still brilliant. 

[Cicero]

44 minutes ago, Eco said:

A similar argument could be made for Ronaldo, no? He's been at the top in scoring for just as long, has done it at 3 different clubs, and has performed better on the international stage. Even more impressive about Ronaldo to me, is that as he's gotten older, his game has adapted and yet he's still brilliant. 

Not really. Ronaldo will go down as one of the greatest goal scorers ever. That’s it. He’s adapted his game sure, but on a footballing perspective he isn’t in the discussion for the best dribblers, passers, or FK takers in history. Messi is. 
 

The 3 different clubs argument is a bit of a piss take, no offense. As if Messi wouldn’t still be elite playing for Man City or Bayern Munich. 
The national team discussion is more worthy of debate.  Messi brought his national team to 4 finals. Being player of the tournament in three of them.

 

[Eco]

1 minute ago, Cicero said:

Not really. Ronaldo will go down as one of the greatest goal scorers ever. That’s it. He’s adapted his game sure, but on a footballing perspective he isn’t in the discussion for the best dribblers, passers, or FK takers in history. Messi is. 
 

The 3 different clubs argument is a bit of a piss take, no offense. As if Messi wouldn’t still be elite playing for Man City or Bayern Munich. 
 The national team discussion is more worthy of debate.  Messi brought his national team to 4 finals. Being man of the match in three of them.

  

None taken, but I do think is says something when a player is able to remain at an elite level at different teams in different countries and different styles. Not saying Messi couldn't, as we'll never know, but whereas I don't put it against Messi, I do think more of Ronaldo for being able to do it. 

[Danny]

Messi is one of the highest goal scorers against Arsenal and he’s never even played in the Prem lol

[Spike]

@El Profesor how you holding up? How is the scene in Brasil right now? Is it total meltdown?

[El Profesor]

27 minutes ago, Spike said:

@El Profesor how you holding up? How is the scene in Brasil right now? Is it total meltdown?

 

 I´m okay. haha  Brazilians in general don´t consider Copa América an important tournament. Probably because we´ve won it so many times since 1997. 

The scene is a complete mess but because of non-football reasons. Some are celebrating Brazil´s defeat as it was a defeat for Bolsonaro´s government, others are mad that so many were rooting for Argentina, while bolsonaristas are still accusing catholic Tite of being a "communist". 

The country is complete crazy those days. Actually, it was always has been, but it´s been even worse lately.

No wonder so many rich and high middle-class brazilians are immigrating to Portugal, while thousands of low middle-class brazilians are trying to immigrate illegally to the US. 

[JoshBRFC+]

9 hours ago, Cicero said:

Personally, I measure quality and years of consistency. Messi for me is the best simply because he’s managed an elite level of goal scoring, dribbling, and chance creation/passing. Being the very best in all three categories for 10-12 years. 
 

Im pretty much aligned with @JoshBRFC. Only player close to him is Diego. 

Always knew you were an intelligent guy. 

[JoshBRFC+]

10 hours ago, The Käiser said:

Didn’t someone named  pele win 3 World Cups?

or r u talking about Argentina players?  

He’s overrated. He has nothing on Diego or that Alien Lionel.

[Stan]

 

 

 

[internationalsfan]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

 

 

 

Exhibition match between these guys and the UEFA team of the tournament for Euro 2020 please... 

[Carnivore Chris]

Copa América:

Most goals: Messi(4)

Most Assists: Messi(5)

Key Passes: Messi(22)

Goal chances created: Messi(8)

Completed dribbles: Messi(36)

 

Euros:

Most goals: C.Ronaldo(5)

Most Assists: Zuber(4)

Key Passes: Veratti(14)

Goal chances created: Pedri(5)

Completed dribbles: Sterling(23)

[El Profesor]

On 11/07/2021 at 05:37, JoshBRFC said:

Very happy that Messi has his hands on an international trophy. His stats this year are absolutely insane considering he plays a much deeper role nowadays. 
 

The undisputed absolute goat. And the closest person to his level is Maradona. 

 

In my opinion, there´s no such thing as GOAT. Comparing players from different eras is anachronistic. 

Ball, gloves, boots, rules, physical conditioning, tactics, sports medicine. A lot changes from one decade to another and completely transforms the sport. 

Having said that, Messi, to me, is the best player of his generation.   

[JoshBRFC+]

39 minutes ago, Carnivore Chris said:

Copa América:

Most goals: Messi(4)

Most Assists: Messi(5)

Key Passes: Messi(22)

Goal chances created: Messi(8)

Completed dribbles: Messi(36)

 

Euros:

Most goals: C.Ronaldo(5)

 Most Assists: Zuber(4)

Key Passes: Veratti(14)

Goal chances created: Pedri(5)

 Completed dribbles: Sterling(23)

Unreal. Stealing this stat. Cheers brother  

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 11/07/2021 at 12:39, Cicero said:

Not really. Ronaldo will go down as one of the greatest goal scorers ever. That’s it. He’s adapted his game sure, but on a footballing perspective he isn’t in the discussion for the best dribblers, passers, or FK takers in history. Messi is. 
 

The 3 different clubs argument is a bit of a piss take, no offense. As if Messi wouldn’t still be elite playing for Man City or Bayern Munich. 
The national team discussion is more worthy of debate.  Messi brought his national team to 4 finals. Being player of the tournament in three of them.

 

I agree with this.

Personally, I also don't agree with the whole "GOAT" bullshit - different eras are completely different to each other. The greatest players of our generation might have struggled to cope with the brutal challenges that were allowed in the past, the greatest players of previous generations might have struggled with the fitness levels top players are expected to have nowadays.

But I do think of this current generation of football players, Messi's the best player. I think Ronaldo is, obviously, a very great player... but even if you take goals away from Messi (and he scores lots of goals), he still leads every other stat.

I can understand the argument about "doing it at three different clubs" and I think there's some merit to it - Ronaldo's managed to perform in the 3 biggest leagues in Europe, other really great players can't necessarily say the same thing. The greatest British goalscorer of all time was dogshit in Italy. Henry was a flop in Italy, but was one of the best attackers we've ever seen in England and did alright as an old man in Spain.

But by the same token, there's something special, romantic even, about Messi being a "one club man" for so long in his career. And sometimes players "get stale" at a club - so to consistently be so important to his club for so long... that really does say something about his quality. So I don't think the fact that Messi has only played at Barca at the club level is really an effective stick to beat him with imo. And if he does leave, I hope he goes back to Argentina for his boyhood side... rather than join the other mercenaries at PSG or City.

[Cicero]

On 10/07/2021 at 21:45, El Profesor said:

Conmebol didn't organize this extra edition of Copa América with the sole intention of making Messi champion.

But... they definitely used the global interest around Messi's quest for his 1st international title to make some extra cash. 

The Copa América Centenario in the US in 2016 and this edition of Copa América were in my opinion clear cash grabs by Conmebol. 

 

 

Throughout the tournament’s history, they held it either every year or every two years in every decade since the 1920’s.
 

The notion they are all of a sudden having it every year/two years instead of 4 in order for Messi to win it just completely ignores the competition’s history. 

[El Profesor]

9 minutes ago, Cicero said:

 

Throughout the tournament’s history, they held it either every year or every two years in every decade since the 1920’s.
 

The notion they are all of a sudden having it every year/two years instead of 4 in order for Messi to win it just completely ignores the competition’s history. 

 

I never said that Conmebol had organized these extra editions of Copa America solely to Messi win it. The reason is money. What I said is that the global interest around Messi´s search for his 1st international title was a factor. 

And on the fact that Copa America is held every year or every two years, yes you´re right.  But Conmebol had decided to organize it every fours years after the edition in Peru (2004) and is reverting it to an edition every 4 years. The next Copa America will be only in 2024 in Equador. 

But who knows? If they sense an opportunity to hold an extra ediion of Copa América in the US, I have no doubt that they will jump on that opportunity. Conmebol never skips a chance to make some extra cash.  

 

[internationalsfan]

35 minutes ago, El Profesor said:

 

I never said that Conmebol had organized these extra editions of Copa America solely to Messi win it. The reason is money. What I said is that the global interest around Messi´s search for his 1st international title was a factor. 

And on the fact that Copa America is held every year or every two years, yes you´re right.  But Conmebol had decided to organize it every fours years after the edition in Peru (2004) and is reverting it to an edition every 4 years. The next Copa America will be only in 2024 in Equador. 

But who knows? If they sense an opportunity to hold an extra ediion of Copa América in the US, I have no doubt that they will jump on that opportunity. Conmebol never skips a chance to make some extra cash.  

  

The CONMENBOL/UEFA deal will probably put a stop to that. What I imagine we'll get is some sort of South American/European tournament in one off the off years during summer. Or one in both, one year in South America, one year in UEFA as a way of generating revenue.

 

Intercontinental Cup with 16 teams knockout (or 4 groups of 4 with QF/SF knockout) (8 South American, 8 European) - with a 32 Team Euros, and a 48 team world cup that would seem like a small tournament despite being as big as the old Euros. 

[internationalsfan]

On 11/07/2021 at 19:49, Cicero said:

Personally, I measure quality and years of consistency. Messi for me is the best simply because he’s managed an elite level of goal scoring, dribbling, and chance creation/passing. Being the very best in all three categories for 10-12 years. 
 

Im pretty much aligned with @JoshBRFC. Only player close to him is Diego. 

If your measuring quality and years of consistency nobody comes close to Stanley Matthews or Ferenc Puskas. Both absolute giants of the game beyond anything the overrated Pele, cheating Maradona, one trick pony Ronaldo or 

 

It's such a shame there was no world cups with the home nations involved at the peak of Matthews career as he would have left the fellow players for dust. 

[Cicero]

22 minutes ago, internationalsfan said:

If your measuring quality and years of consistency nobody comes close to Stanley Matthews or Ferenc Puskas. Both absolute giants of the game beyond anything the overrated Pele, cheating Maradona, one trick pony Ronaldo or 

 

It's such a shame there was no world cups with the home nations involved at the peak of Matthews career as he would have left the fellow players for dust. 

Aye Puskas and DiStefano were so ahead of their time. 

[Stan]