UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Bluewolf]

5 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think part of the campaigning problem was Brexiters had very carefully crafted emotional messages, either scapegoating immigrants - which we know plays well to certain crowds, or telling outright lies - like the EU killing the British fishing industry & all of that money that will flow into NHS. But these messages, even though they're emotional scapegoating or just blatantly lying... they work with people.

 

That's not uncommon though is it... You have to look past all the silly scaremongering and try and pick your way through what really matters most but a very large percentage of the public are driven by what they read and what they see on a daily basis.. Sadly our education system does not allow for a broader understanding of such matters... spoon feed the masses enough rubbish on regular basis and they will pretty much swallow anything.. The truth is they are appealing to their emotions because trying to explain the pros and cons so that the majority of the public have a full and better understanding of whats involved would take far to long if such a thing was even possible...The Witch Hunt rules are applied... Don't really need to go into detail if you can just start shouting Witch! Witch! in a loud enough voice enough times before the angry mob is following behind pitchforks and burning torches in hand.. 

Prior to joining we were being informed that failure to get on board would effectively leave us just a barren wasteland with no hope for the future... The Daily Mirror even went as far as to say 'we would become mere lookers-on from an offshore island of dwindling insignificance' if we failed to join so even then the same  manipulations were taking place... Scare enough people into thinking we will be nothing if we were not part of it then of course people are going to clambering to get on board... The reverse has now been applied to get just enough people to vote leave. 

 

[Machado]

18 minutes ago, Bluewolf said:

Sadly our education system does not allow for a broader understanding of such matters... spoon feed the masses enough rubbish on regular basis and they will pretty much swallow anything.. The truth is they are appealing to their emotions because trying to explain the pros and cons so that the majority of the public have a full and better understanding of whats involved would take far to long if such a thing was even possible...The Witch Hunt rules are applied... Don't really need to go into detail if you can just start shouting Witch! Witch!

This is why referendums aren't the way to go. Direct democracy was tried in ancient Athens and quickly abandoned for a reason. In a parliamentary democracy, a matter such as Brexit should be decided by parliament.

[Bluewolf]

1 hour ago, Machado said:

This is why referendums aren't the way to go. Direct democracy was tried in ancient Athens and quickly abandoned for a reason. In a parliamentary democracy, a matter such as Brexit should be decided by parliament.

I believe that a country's people have a right to have a say in all things that will affect them, I also believe that the general public are not all fully equipped to make sound decisions when they have no real knowledge of the potential impact that such decisions bring to the table.. but that's what politicians are there for in the first place, to do their best to carry out the wishes of the people but we all know it doesn't work like that. This Leave/Remain debate became such a hot potato that as has already been mentioned earlier in the thread that they took the Fat Sam approach to it... Let the public decide then they were effectively absolved of the real responsibility for what happens next, Given that it has taken so long even to get to this point and the fallout that is still continuing over it I have to wonder if even the best ones out there with all the knowledge and know how are capable of negotiating something that is workable.. 

 

[Danny]

Are we surprised that a campaign based on xenophobia, racism and Islamophobia has been fined for breaking the law and referred to the Police? Treading on reasonable grounds for a second referendum now?

[Machado]

12 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I do think Remainers have some kind of Stockholm syndrome with the EU. I just can’t fathom why you would want to surrender democratic sovereignty, it just baffles me entirely. 

The very existence of this question proves you love your flag too much, like Farage and his type, addicted to an extinct empire.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Machado said:

The very existence of this question proves you love your flag too much, like Farage and his type, addicted to an extinct empire.

Farage & Reese-Mogg want to roll back all sorts of regulations and rights and turn the UK into a tax haven with cheap labour, rather than any genuine love for Britain or our former empire. They’re exploiting the people who are though.

[SirBalon]

Yeah, we’re going back to the 1950s it seems. 

[The Artful Dodger]

This past week has seen the Conservative party and our government essentially implode, nobody any the wiser and an opposition unwilling to commit to killing off the government as they're scared of inheriting this clusterfuck.

I'm still uncomfortable with idea of a second referendum, it would give the far-right a bone which they could use forever as the mythical 'stab in the back'. It was a terrible decision to hold the referendum but having another one isn't the answer. Aside from the obvious democracy stuff, it's not exactly going to clear anything up, there will be the same stuff repeated, nothing is ever learnt from these things. 

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by The Artful Dodger

[Stan]

15 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

As someone who has very, very little interest in politics how secure (realistically) is May's job? I've never given a shit who runs the country but even I think she's absolutely shit. 

it's at 'very insecure' levels to use the FM term. 

I can't see how she can last much longer when members of her own cabinet are leaving, having realised even they can't cure the clusterfuck she's responsible for causing.

 

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

it's at 'very insecure' levels to use the FM term. 

I can't see how she can last much longer when members of her own cabinet are leaving, having realised even they can't cure the clusterfuck she's responsible for causing.

 

She's useless but I wouldn't lay all of the responsibility at her door.

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

She's useless but I wouldn't lay all of the responsibility at her door.

yeah I should have put partly. What I meant was for a lot of it, she's been at the helm, so ultimately the buck does stop with her.

[Honey Honey]

Jacob Rees Mogg and Boris Johnson can't get their approach (which is slightly different to one another) through the commons or the lords anyway. They get great traction publicly by spouting their view in order to gain leverage behind closed doors but they have reached their limit in reality. Parliament is having to find compromise on grounds of its own composition. That's a fairly normal practice of democracy maintaining social order, if not the cornerstone of it. 

Parliament is playing the games that parliament always has in order to reach an end result. It is fairly organic. MP's test the boundaries of their power among one another, they suss each other out, they manipulate each other, try to bring them down or under their spell. 

Theresa May hasn't been able to find compromise as a leader. It is probably the result of both her character and the immense stubborness of some MP's which can also be seen in the public too. I've heard from the ITK's I drink with around Whitehall  that internally in the conservative party they are all mourning the loss of their hero David Cameron, that May can't work a room which makes for a flat atmosphere and an inability to unite. 

[The Artful Dodger]

Well rebel Labour MPS have just saved May in the commons on the customs union, she's like Fergie's united, horrible but gets results out of nowhere.

[Inverted]

Stuns me that Labour haven't a found a way to jettison bigoted deadweight cunts like Kate Hoey, who are substantially further to the right of most Tories, and who clearly have little interest in opposition. 

Hoey in particular wouldn't be a jot out of place in the DUP. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Inverted

[Fairy In Boots]

11 hours ago, Machado said:

The very existence of this question proves you love your flag too much, like Farage and his type, addicted to an extinct empire.

Lol I do think it’s a fundamental difference between continentals and us Islanders just how ready you seem to jettison national sovereignty in place of a pan European solution. 

It’s also not longing for empire, I accept that’s well gone but I see a potential for the U.K. to thrive on its own. I also believe in order for that to happen we need democratic accountability from our decision makers not unelected Eurocrats in Brussels doing what’s best for the money maker Germany. 

18 minutes ago, Inverted said:

Stuns me that Labour haven't a found a way to jettison bigoted deadweight cunts like Kate Hoey, who are substantially further to the right of most Tories, and who clearly have little interest in opposition. 

Hoey in particular wouldn't be a jot out of place in the DUP. 

Ironically she’s more in touch with traditional Labour voters on Brexit than the trendy Corbynista types who think the world will end when we leave the EU. I live in a staunch labour constituency, Brexit is tremendously popular 

[Fairy In Boots]

4 hours ago, Cannabis said:

As someone who has very, very little interest in politics how secure (realistically) is May's job? I've never given a shit who runs the country but even I think she's absolutely shit. 

She won’t fight another election they just haven’t found an heir yet and they need to because she’s doing damage now. 

[Inverted]

8 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

 

Ironically she’s more in touch with traditional Labour voters on Brexit than the trendy Corbynista types who think the world will end when we leave the EU. I live in a staunch labour constituency, Brexit is tremendously popular 

I don't know what traditional Labour voter means but she's vastly at odds with most Labour voters, party members, and indeed her own constituents, but nonetheless she sticks on a red rosette and jumps on the Labour bandwagon at the right times to get into Parliament, and then instantly pulls a volte-face once she's safeguarded her position and is free to pursue her own demented personal agenda. 

She's got one of the safest left-wing seats in the country. You could basically put a dog with a rose stuck in its collar up for election, and return a Labour MP, and yet for some reason Labour are giving it to someone who's hell-bent on keeping the Tories in power. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Inverted

[Fairy In Boots]

Just now, Inverted said:

I don't know what traditional Labour voter means but she's vastly at odds with most Labour voters, party members, and indeed her own constituents, but nonetheless she sticks on a red rosette and jumps on the Labour bandwagon at the right times to get into Parliament, and then instantly pulls a volte-face once she's safeguarded her position and is free to pursue her own demented personal agenda. 

 

Traditional labour voter means working class from industrial areas with lower education who by and large voted leave. If memory serves it was approx 60/40 to remain with labour voters, labour voters are traditionally more poorly educated than Conservatives and leave was more prevalent among those who only had lower basic GCSE education. It’s the element that deserted Milliband In favour of UKIP and cost him that election. 

Pre Blair they were an also ran party not enough in number to win a general election, labour stole the centre ground with Blair so they shifted focus and imported votes via mass immigration and the long march through the institutions hence universities are rabid lefty types mostly now predisposed to vote Labour despite the party being as useful as a chocolate teapot because “thatcher stopped the milk” and “tories are evil”. I do find it hilarious how they’ve betrayed that element, they fucking hate Corbyn 

[Kowabunga]

Powerful speech. Nasty ending look and finger.

 

[Fairy In Boots]

8 minutes ago, Kowabunga said:

Powerful speech. Nasty ending look and finger.

 

She’s had a liquid lunch by the look of it

[Inverted]

7 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Traditional labour voter means working class from industrial areas with lower education who by and large voted leave. If memory serves it was approx 60/40 to remain with labour voters, labour voters are traditionally more poorly educated than Conservatives and leave was more prevalent among those who only had lower basic GCSE education. It’s the element that deserted Milliband In favour of UKIP and cost him that election. 

Pre Blair they were an also ran party not enough in number to win a general election, labour stole the centre ground with Blair so they shifted focus and imported votes via mass immigration and the long march through the institutions hence universities are rabid lefty types mostly now predisposed to vote Labour despite the party being as useful as a chocolate teapot because “thatcher stopped the milk” and “tories are evil”. I do find it hilarious how they’ve betrayed that element, they fucking hate Corbyn 

Universities produce left-wing voters because quite simply most jobs require a university education these days. You can't become a fucking air hostess or a party planner without a degree these days. Right now if you're not in some kind of higher education, you're either gearing up for a life on the dole, or you're one of the lucky group who've managed to get an apprenticeship in a trade, or have a family job lined up for them. 

This conception people have in the wider world of uni students being some fringe group of elite middle-class ideologues is totally outdated - a uni student is essentially the average prospective entrant into the job market. And the market these days is horrendously competitive, and employment is extremely insecure. 

It's natural that people in that position support pro-jobs, pro-housing, pro-employee policies, etc. And even more strongly, they'll oppose the loss of workers' protections and the potential loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs that Brexit will cause. 

The old idea of the working class is outdated because the worker of the future - and by worker I mean even those existing in more precarious financial conditions - will be educated beyond a high-school level. 

[Fairy In Boots]

15 minutes ago, Inverted said:

Universities produce left-wing voters because quite simply most jobs require a university education these days. You can't become a fucking air hostess or a party planner without a degree these days. Right now if you're not in some kind of higher education, you're either gearing up for a life on the dole, or you're one of the lucky group who've managed to get an apprenticeship in a trade, or have a family job lined up for them. 

This conception people have in the wider world of uni students being some fringe group of elite middle-class ideologues is totally outdated - a uni student is essentially the average prospective entrant into the job market. And the market these days is horrendously competitive, and employment is extremely insecure. 

It's natural that people in that position support pro-jobs, pro-housing, pro-employee policies, etc. And even more strongly, they'll oppose the loss of workers' protections and the potential loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs that Brexit will cause. 

The old idea of the working class is outdated because the worker of the future - and by worker I mean even those existing in more precarious financial conditions - will be educated beyond a high-school level. 

Yes & no, I agree many have gone to UNI now and will continue to do so as society shifts that way. However I think that changes on location and background it’s not free south of the border and poorer people are still entering the labour market. Therefore there’s still a significant voter base that are the traditional voter for Labour, I guarantee half the folks on this board from ‘up north would class their folks as this. 

Regarding Uni, It’s popular to be left leaning, it’s entwined with youth culture this counter culture movement than resonates on campuses. Still a lot of shy Tories in UNI though, they just keep quiet because they want to get their dicks wet and don’t want rabid shouty lefty’s protesting them. 

In terms of socialistic policy it’s popular among the youth but as you get older you become less idealistic and migrate right with the idea that “you had to work for it, they should to” attitude. I would say this point has shifted from 30-40’s now due to people not entering the labour market until mid 20’s due to extended education. Hence you get a lot of early 30’s still loving off Corbyn, they’ll grow out of it.

My sister was rabid for him 2 years ago she’s got a better job now and moved away from him, still hates Tories though “fox murderers” she says she won’t vote next election. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Fairy In Boots

[Inverted]

22 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Yes & no, I agree many have gone to UNI now and will continue to do so as society shifts that way. However I think that changes on location and background it’s not free south of the border and poorer people are still entering the labour market. Therefore there’s still a significant voter base that are the traditional voter for Labour, I guarantee half the folks on this board from ‘up north would class their folks as this. 

Regarding Uni, It’s popular to be left leaning, it’s entwined with youth culture this counter culture movement than resonates on campuses. Still a lot of shy Tories in UNI though, they just keep quiet because they want to get their dicks wet and don’t want rabid shouty lefty’s protesting them. 

In terms of socialistic policy it’s popular among the youth but as you get older you become less idealistic and migrate right with the idea that “you had to work for it, they should to” attitude. I would say this point has shifted from 30-40’s now due to people not entering the labour market until mid 20’s due to extended education. Hence you get a lot of early 30’s still loving off Corbyn, they’ll grow out of it.

My sister was rabid for him 2 years ago she’s got a better job now and moved away from him, still hates Tories though “fox murderers” she says she won’t vote next election. 

I agree that the idealised Labour voter does still exist in large numbers, and you've got to remember that Scotland is part of that "north" too, and my family up to my grandparents would class themselves as diehard Labour types who vote Labour primarily because that's what our "kind" did (my grandad, a beer delivery driver in his day, even has a framed photo on his dining table of him meeting Blair).

But it's a dying demographic, both in the literal sense (touch wood for the old man) and also in the sense that many of them have less need now for what the left offers. People in their 50s don't need cheaper housing - they have mortgages paid up already and they'll be damned if the government tries to drive prices down. They don't need rent control. They don't need more graduate-level jobs or apprenticeships. They don't need lowered tuition fees. They don't need the freedom to travel around Europe to work or study. They don't need cheaper public transport, they've mostly got cars or they've got it free. They're getting older, they've not got much more they need out of life or the state, and in their age they grow a bit paranoid or embittered and worry about the stuff they read in the papers, which is primarily immigrants and the EU. 

Labour it seems to me is stuck between turning back to try and claw back that demographic, or pressing on and trying to position itself as the party of tommorow's "working class", if that even will have any meaning in a decade. 

In Scotland it's not quite the same as that, but traditional left-wing voters get picked off by the SNP because they're essentially a blank canvas type party which positions itself wherever on the spectrum is liable to attract the most Scottish voters, which right now makes them centre-left. 

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Inverted

[Inverted]

Also, considering that the Lib-Dems have doubled down on being the country’s most staunch Remain Party and trying to market themselves as the “real opposition”, it’s pretty astounding that Farron and Cable weren’t even present for the amendment vote that scraped in favour of the Brexiteers.

Goes to show that they can talk a good game, but no matter how crucial an issue, and how perfect a chance to make a difference, the Lib Dems will let you down. Always.

Astounding that they even have the few constituencies they still do.

[RandoEFC+]

Don't know how representative this is but: