UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Kowabunga]

11 hours ago, SirBalon said:

The question is what does this choosing our own path actually mean? 

A brexiteer could just answer you: yeah, EUSSR remoaners just doing the Lenin impersonation vilely telling Fernando de los Ríos in 1920: Freedom, for what? 

 

 

[Kowabunga]

 

 

[Stan]

But hey, we get to choose our own path with BLUE PASSPORTS. 

How cool is that?! 

[SirBalon]

Philip Hammond and some others would have us believe we are prisoners...

We should be feeling like the modern day English version of William Wallace/s!

"Aye, leave and we may become poor. Stay and you'll maintain the status quo -- at least a while. And lying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our European enemies that they may try to take our soveigrenty, but they'll never take our freedom"

I could've given it a little more thought and probably made it a lot better... But it is Monday morning. 

[Honey Honey]

10 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Philip Hammond and some others would have us believe we are prisoners...

We should be feeling like the modern day English version of William Wallace/s!

Philip Hammond? Really? An ardent remainer who champions staying as tight to the EU as possible. I'm intrigued as to what someome of his background and disposition has said to make you post that?

[SirBalon]

5 hours ago, Harvsky said:

Philip Hammond? Really? An ardent remainer who champions staying as tight to the EU as possible. I'm intrigued as to what someome of his background and disposition has said to make you post that?

His speech at the party conference and to be honest the whole comedy sketch that's been on offer since it started. Can't wait for Boris tomorrow.  What's the large guy's name... Can't be bothered to search for it now but he had a great go at it too.  How can anything be negotiated when the focus should be on nothingness turned into a slapstick farce.

Oh and his comment (this is the edit) which I quoted old Mel was due to his comparison of Europe to Lenin's Soviet Union.

[Honey Honey]

8 hours ago, SirBalon said:

His speech at the party conference and to be honest the whole comedy sketch that's been on offer since it started. Can't wait for Boris tomorrow.  What's the large guy's name... Can't be bothered to search for it now but he had a great go at it too.  How can anything be negotiated when the focus should be on nothingness turned into a slapstick farce.

Oh and his comment (this is the edit) which I quoted old Mel was due to his comparison of Europe to Lenin's Soviet Union.

Seen it after my post. It was Jeremy Hunt who mentioned the Soviet Union not Philip Hammond.

It's pretty tasteless for someone in government, but the general point of threat, coercion and punishment is an unarguable culture of the EU nationalist and centre right. The degree to which it impacts now is open to interpretation. 

 

[Kowabunga]

On 02/10/2018 at 09:48, Harvsky said:

Seen it after my post. It was Jeremy Hunt who mentioned the Soviet Union not Philip Hammond.

It's pretty tasteless for someone in government, but the general point of threat, coercion and punishment is an unarguable culture of the EU nationalist and centre right. The degree to which it impacts now is open to interpretation. 

 

Indeed, some (especially) centre right people love the smell of napalmGreek bailout conditions in the morning. Smelled like... victory for them. This being somewhat reminiscent of it. I think it has little to do with nationalism, though.

However the most daringly out-of-touch position is the one that bought dellusion for pennies regarding the prospect of the UK getting a having-your-cake-and-eat-it deal, voted brexit because of it, and still sticks to that vision of mighty power play. Excluding obviously those who pushed forward this circus and still aim at getting a personal gain of it at the expense of the common folk (*Anna Soubry speaking through me*).

 

Including this unrelated tweet because of reasons:

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Kowabunga

[God is Haaland]

On 02/10/2018 at 09:48, Harvsky said:

Seen it after my post. It was Jeremy Hunt who mentioned the Soviet Union not Philip Hammond.

It's pretty tasteless for someone in government, but the general point of threat, coercion and punishment is an unarguable culture of the EU nationalist and centre right. The degree to which it impacts now is open to interpretation. 

 

Pointing out consequences is not the same as threatening.

[6666]

20 minutes ago, BartraPique1932 said:

Pointing out consequences is not the same as threatening.

We like false promises better.

[Honey Honey]

On 04/10/2018 at 22:10, BartraPique1932 said:

Pointing out consequences is not the same as threatening.

You might able to spin that to relevancy for Brexit but not for all actions. Although even in Brexit you might want to have a word with a few politicians who want to dish out punishment to threaten others to stay in.

"Britain can't be seen to have a good deal" is very much on the radar of those responsible for multiple economic tragedies in Europe.

The EU has bad eggs as much as the UK.

[SirBalon]

Right now we have to pay our club bar tab for what’s due and THEN we can see if we can juice some club membership benefits while telling them we no longer want to belong to the club.

[Kowabunga]

Could someone brief me about the layers of the DUP stance regarding Brexit (namely current political posturing, prospect for the outcome of negotiations and/or the May Cabinet, and ultimately their long term vision for NI) and how do they (coherently or incoherently) relate to each other?

[Fairy In Boots]

On 28/09/2018 at 00:32, Danny said:

Nothing to do with racism or xenophobia

The man who spearheaded a Brexit campaign consistently used anti-immigration and anti-Islamic rhetoric to gain support, you are well and truly living in dream land if you think that it didn't play a big role in voting.

To suggest there was no islamaphobia because there is no Muslim country is ridiculous, especially coming from a man who churned out the scaremongering that Turkey will join the EU and flood Europe with Muslims.

Ok so initially I acknowledged that there was a bit of “make Britain great again” element to the vote, so I’m not wholly disagreeing with you. However vote leave which was the official campaign for leaving had nothing to do with Farage. Farage got as much media attention as he did because his supporters lapped it up and those easily triggered by it spat there dummies and controversy sells, in a click bait world all those giving attention to it are responsible for its reach. 

The official campaign didn’t talk about Islamic immigration (officially as a policy, no doubt it they got asked) you might perceive it as such but it really didn’t.

Leave.eu was a privately funded campaign that featured Farage and focussed on immigration, often both sides contradicted each other because vote leave (the official campaign) focused on economic arguments. 

And let’s not pretend there wasn’t / isn’t project fear by unofficial remain elements of the media / political class. More laughable than the millennium bug some of it. 

On 28/09/2018 at 09:25, Dr. Gonzo said:

“A freedom to choose our own path” sounds nice, but it doesn’t really mean anything. Nor does it explain or justify the negatives that come from either a hard Brexit or a soft Brexit that ties us to EU regulations we have no influence over if we aren’t in the EU. Economic instability also doesn’t make for “freedom.”

Also the fact that some industries might export less to Europe doesn’t change the fact that most British exports are to Europe. You can argue it’s not true. But it is true, so you’d be wrong. You could argue it doesn’t have to be to Europe. But the EU countries are our biggest trading partners.

The EU are our biggest trade partners because they’ve set the parameters and they negotiate trade deals as a block for years. 

Freedom to chose our own path means we can negotiate our own trade deals that we believe are beneficial to us. 

Of course there’s no guarantee we’ll get it right all the time but at least then we only have ourselves to blame. Like it or not that’s Freedom. 

 

On 28/09/2018 at 14:26, SirBalon said:

The question is what does this choosing our own path actually mean? 

What's this other path that's a lot more magnificent than the path we were already on.

Having had more time to learn the reality of things during the post referendum period has taught me how much crap we were fed.  All that soveigrenty rubbish which was all lies as we've always had sovereignty and the regulations we abided by are actually regulations that we'll keep even after post Brexit if it ever actually occurs due to the fact it's all in our best interests from safety to quality control.

See above. 

 

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Ok so initially I acknowledged that there was a bit of “make Britain great again” element to the vote, so I’m not wholly disagreeing with you. However vote leave which was the official campaign for leaving had nothing to do with Farage. Farage got as much media attention as he did because his supporters lapped it up and those easily triggered by it spat there dummies and controversy sells, in a click bait world all those giving attention to it are responsible for its reach. 

The official campaign didn’t talk about Islamic immigration (officially as a policy, no doubt it they got asked) you might perceive it as such but it really didn’t.

Leave.eu was a privately funded campaign that featured Farage and focussed on immigration, often both sides contradicted each other because vote leave (the official campaign) focused on economic arguments. 

And let’s not pretend there wasn’t / isn’t project fear by unofficial remain elements of the media / political class. More laughable than the millennium bug some of it. 

The EU are our biggest trade partners because they’ve set the parameters and they negotiate trade deals as a block for years. 

Freedom to chose our own path means we can negotiate our own trade deals that we believe are beneficial to us. 

Of course there’s no guarantee we’ll get it right all the time but at least then we only have ourselves to blame. Like it or not that’s Freedom. 

 

See above. 

 

Beneficial to us but at what price, literally? 

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

Beneficial to us but at what price, literally? 

It's for people that continue to believe in Unicorns.

The only beneficial thing of leaving the EU was the control of our borders but that's come (or will come) at a price that will destroy everything this country is built up on for the last 30 years, which is alot!

Its boring to have these types of debates anymore because the truth is actually out there to see now and there's no need to listen to any of the polarised opinions on leaving or staying... The facts are out there now and we were lied to... Maybe not lied to in some cases because nobody (not even them, the politicians) had a bloody clue! 

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 hours ago, SirBalon said:

It's for people that continue to believe in Unicorns.

The only beneficial thing of leaving the EU was the control of our borders but that's come (or will come) at a price that will destroy everything this country is built up on for the last 30 years, which is alot!

Its boring to have these types of debates anymore because the truth is actually out there to see now and there's no need to listen to any of the polarised opinions on leaving or staying... The facts are out there now and we were lied to... Maybe not lied to in some cases because nobody (not even them, the politicians) had a bloody clue! 

It really is just living in dream world - the EU will likely remain our biggest trade partner as our closest neighbor and current largest purchaser of our goods and services. Brexit won’t magically make that stop, particularly if we aren’t wanting to have the economy totally unravel beneath our feet. It’ll only serve to make trade much more complicated and costly in regards to trade with the EU.

Furthermore, without us in the EU, we are in a far weaker position to negotiate trade agreements. Leaving the EU makes us smaller on the world stage. A smaller and less important trade partner. And likely a huge hit to our soft diplomatic power.

You’re right in that control over our borders is the most significant thing that could come from Brexit. And for us to retain any of our EU benefits that so many on the Brexit camp say that we’ll be able to have despite wanting a hard Brexit, we will have to cede some of that control over our borders. The best case Brexit scenario imo is we go the Norway route... and even then, I don’t see what the point is as we would still be beholden to EU regulations. We just would no longer have any say in what those regulations are.

The illusion of freedom isn’t worth creating economic instability and putting the personal wealth of all British people at risk, decreasing Britain’s soft power, and ability to negotiate trade deals.

The biggest beneficiaries are disaster capitalists banking on economic collapse and privitisation. They’ll have ultimate freedom. But not the vast majority of people.

[SirBalon]

What makes me laugh is all this talk of us (the UK) being a powerful nation and that the EU need us as much as we need them...  Are you having a laugh!  (I’m genuinely laughing right now)

Of course we’re an important and powerful nation by comparison to many others and obviously we offer things.

But AS MUCH as we need them?

What a pompous mannerism to display and also one of arrogance.

Without going into semantics... the EU are a hell of a lot more porwerful than us on our own and WE do actually need them otherwise we wouldn’t be negotiating anything.

There’s another thing... We abide by EU regulations on imports because it’s in our best interest and will more than probably continue to do so because it means quality and safety... Not all WTO nations abide by these rules and what are we to expect in our desperation? Lowering our standards?  So much for control of our own destiny and our greatness.

There’s another small detail... Many if not most WTO nations already have trade agreements with the EU and there’s that small thing about all WTO nations having to agree to any individual agreement made by us and another WTO nation. I see a conflict of interests maybe? Who knows on that one but it ain’t so clear cut... It ain’t as clear cut as being in the EU and everything esle you wrote.

All this so as we don’t get a bunch of Italians, Spaniards, French etc... entering our space with just an id card. 

[Panna King]

42 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

What makes me laugh is all this talk of us (the UK) being a powerful nation and that the EU need us as much as we need them...  Are you having a laugh!  (I’m genuinely laughing right now)

Of course we’re an important and powerful nation by comparison to many others and obviously we offer things.

But AS MUCH as we need them?

What a pompous mannerism to display and also one of arrogance.

Without going into semantics... the EU are a hell of a lot more porwerful than us on our own and WE do actually need them otherwise we wouldn’t be negotiating anything.

There’s another thing... We abide by EU regulations on imports because it’s in our best interest and will more than probably continue to do so because it means quality and safety... Not all WTO nations abide by these rules and what are we to expect in our desperation? Lowering our standards?  So much for control of our own destiny and our greatness.

There’s another small detail... Many if not most WTO nations already have trade agreements with the EU and there’s that small thing about all WTO nations having to agree to any individual agreement made by us and another WTO nation. I see a conflict of interests maybe? Who knows on that one but it ain’t so clear cut... It ain’t as clear cut as being in the EU and everything esle you wrote.

All this so as we don’t get a bunch of Italians, Spaniards, French etc... entering our space with just an id card. 

 

We've got our England back 

[Danny]

On 17/10/2018 at 18:48, Fairy In Boots said:

Ok so initially I acknowledged that there was a bit of “make Britain great again” element to the vote, so I’m not wholly disagreeing with you. However vote leave which was the official campaign for leaving had nothing to do with Farage. Farage got as much media attention as he did because his supporters lapped it up and those easily triggered by it spat there dummies and controversy sells, in a click bait world all those giving attention to it are responsible for its reach. 

The official campaign didn’t talk about Islamic immigration (officially as a policy, no doubt it they got asked) you might perceive it as such but it really didn’t.

Leave.eu was a privately funded campaign that featured Farage and focussed on immigration, often both sides contradicted each other because vote leave (the official campaign) focused on economic arguments. 

And let’s not pretend there wasn’t / isn’t project fear by unofficial remain elements of the media / political class. More laughable than the millennium bug some of it. 

The EU are our biggest trade partners because they’ve set the parameters and they negotiate trade deals as a block for years. 

Freedom to chose our own path means we can negotiate our own trade deals that we believe are beneficial to us. 

Of course there’s no guarantee we’ll get it right all the time but at least then we only have ourselves to blame. Like it or not that’s Freedom. 

 

See above. 

 

There was a big make Britain great again attitude to the vote, and Vote Leave used advertisements on Facebook to scare people into believing Turkey will join the EU and flood the UK with immigrants, when there was already massive islamophobia hysteria being used to push Brexit through. Regardless, there was more to Brexit than the official campaign and most of that came from the poster boy Farage.

[SirBalon]

The thing is that you can't choose your own path with WTO rules either.  It works in the same way as with the EU trade rules.  Right now our application to the WTO has been vetoed by Moldova, Israel and the USA... Curiously with the USA we're apparently close to some sort of deal but all the same, every WTO country has to be in agreement just as in the EU.  The fundamental difference between trade laws in the EU and the WTO is quality and safety control for what is permitted to arrive in any EU state.

You don't choose your own path in any walk of life!  Even when you enter a shop to buy stuff, you buy by the rules and laws of the nation and then the shop you are in.  You don't negotiate with the shop on what it has or how it will sell it to you.

[Kowabunga]

I am reading the party manifestos for the 2017 election regarding Brexit which may be a proxy for the interpretation of the mandate for a particular kind of direction in the Brexit negotiations (as least as indicative as the cacophonic referendum mandate). Among the usual wisful thinking, some apparently defined stances emerge:

Tories:

Out of the custom unions and the single market.

Labour:

No hard border in Northern Ireland.

No "no deal".

Libs:

Second vote on the deal.

Scottish nationalists:

Stay in the single market.

Dup:

Does not compute. Aside from giving for granted (and welcoming) the exit from the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice everything else is wishful thinking.

Ukip:

The EU want us in. No compromise on Brexit!

[CaaC (John)+]

Minister Jo Johnson quits over Brexit and calls for new vote

3 minutes ago

Video > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403

Jo Johnson has quit as transport minister and called for the public to have a fresh say on Brexit.

The MP, who is Boris Johnson's brother, said the withdrawal deal currently being negotiated with the European Union "will be a terrible mistake".

Arguing Britain was "on the brink of the greatest crisis" since World War Two, he said what was on offer wasn't "anything like what was promised".

Downing Street thanked him for his work but ruled out another referendum.

Jo Johnson voted to remain in the EU in the 2016 referendum while his brother Boris, who quit as foreign secretary in July, was a leading Brexiteer.

• Q&A: The Irish border Brexit backstop
• Brexit: All you need to know
• DUP accuses PM of breaking promises

His brother praised his decision, saying they were "united in dismay" at the PM's handling of the negotiations.

Cabinet ministers have been invited this week to read the UK's draft withdrawal deal with the EU. Theresa May has said the withdrawal deal is 95% done - but there is no agreement yet on how to guarantee no hard border in Northern Ireland.

On Friday the DUP, whose support Theresa May relies on for votes in the Commons, said they cannot support any deal which included the possibility that Northern Ireland would be treated differently from the rest of the UK.

In an article sent to journalists, the MP for Orpington in Kent said the deal was being finalised in Brussels and Whitehall but the choice being presented was either, to back an agreement which would leave the UK "economically weakened with no say in the EU rules it must follow" or a "no-deal Brexit" which would "inflict untold damage on our nation".

He described this as "a failure of British statecraft unseen since the Suez crisis" but said even a no-deal Brexit "may well be better than the never-ending purgatory" being put forward by the prime minister.

But in a warning to his brother and fellow Brexiteers, he added: "Inflicting such serious economic and political harm on the country will leave an indelible impression of incompetence in the minds of the public". The "democratic thing to do is to give the public the final say", he argued.

---

Serious impact?

(More vv)

 

The BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg

For some time, Jo Johnson has struggled with the unfolding reality of Brexit.

A well-respected and liked member of the government, he has decided that what was promised to people during the referendum campaign is now so different to what is on the table that he has quit the government instead.

He's not the first, nor the best-known minister to resign over Brexit. But to leave at this moment, right when Theresa May is trying to stitch together a final deal, could have a serious impact.

Read Laura's full blog

---

He added: "This would not be about re-running the 2016 referendum, but about asking people whether they want to go ahead with Brexit now that we know the deal that is actually available to us, whether we should leave without any deal at all or whether people on balance would rather stick with the deal we already have inside the European Union.

"Britain stands on the brink of the greatest crisis since the Second World War. My loyalty to the party is undimmed. I have never rebelled on any issue before now. But my duty to my constituents and our great nation has forced me to act."

'Authority lost'

In response, a Downing Street spokesman said: "The referendum in 2016 was the biggest democratic exercise in this country's history. We will not under any circumstances have a second referendum.

"The prime minister thanks Jo Johnson for his work in government."

Mr. Johnson is the sixth minister in Theresa May's government to resign specifically over Brexit, following David Davis, Boris Johnson, Philip Lee, Steve Baker and Guto Bebb.

For Labour, Shadow Brexit Minister Jenny Chapman said Mrs. May had "lost all authority and is incapable of negotiating a Brexit deal within her own party, let alone with the EU". Tom Watson, Labour's deputy leader, added: "How many more resignations is it going to take before we see a change at the top?"

Lib Dem leader Sir Vince Cable, whose party supports calls for a "People's Vote" on the final deal, said: "We warmly welcome Jo Johnson's support of the campaign to give the people the final say on the deal and a chance to exit from Brexit.

"This is a fascinating situation in which Jo and his sister are united in opposing their brother Boris and his Brexit plans."

Brexiteer Tory MP Andrea Jenkyns tweeted that she did not agree with him about another referendum - but his intervention highlighted unease on both sides of the debate, with the PM's efforts to secure a deal.

And pro-Remain Conservative Anna Soubry supported his decision and said it was time for another referendum.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403

2

Edited November 9, 2018 by CaaC - John

[Kowabunga]

Raab (also Shailesh Vara) handed in his resignation!

 

Is this reckoning day?

 

[The Artful Dodger]

Another election incoming.