UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Harry]

Surely any new vote would need to be more than an A or B scenario...?

Mays deal, no Deal, or remain. Ranked from 1 to 3. That way you'll be able to establish where the majority consensus lies with clear defined options on the table rather than having people voting with some hypothetical best case scenario in mind that the EU would never agree to...

[Tommy]

 

[CaaC (John)+]

I wish they would bring back 'Spitting Images'...sigh  

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by CaaC - John

[God is Haaland]

 

[Tommy]

[Stan]

Brexit extension agreed by EU until 31st October.

Happy Halloween. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Tommy said:

Jacob Rees-Mogg is everything I dislike about society rolled up into one scrawny little shit of a human

[Fairy In Boots]

22 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Jacob Rees-Mogg is everything I dislike about society rolled up into one scrawny little shit of a human

You just don’t like him because he was born into wealth, given half a chance you’d give your kids the same. 

Anyway the really contentious issue of all this is, who would do his sister? 

Spoiler: I’d hit it. She’s got that Toff Milf vibe 

 

[The Artful Dodger]

not pretty in the slightest. I'd say maybe she's got a nice personality but doesn't look like it. Nah.

There are some decent tories, louise mensch was the stand out before she fucked off.

Edited April 12, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Dr. Gonzo]

35 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

You just don’t like him because he was born into wealth, given half a chance you’d give your kids the same. 

Anyway the really contentious issue of all this is, who would do his sister? 

Spoiler: I’d hit it. She’s got that Toff Milf vibe 

 

I don’t like him because he’s a disingenuous little liar who doesn’t have much substance behind his debates but the media doesn’t like to call him out because he went to Eton and Oxford.

He recently called out another toff born into wealth about the lower standard his public school was. The crux of that debate is essentially “my daddy was richer than yours.”

I think Rees-Mogg is great for those who feel the need to have a toff lord over them though.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

You just don’t like him because he was born into wealth, given half a chance you’d give your kids the same

 

So just because he's inherited richness means we can't like him?!

You can be rich and still not be a monumental cunt of a human being. Something which he fails to do. In a similar vein, you can be rich and give your kids a normal, decent upbringing.

[The Artful Dodger]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

 

So just because he's inherited richness means we can't like him?!

You can be rich and still not be a monumental cunt of a human being. Something which he fails to do. In a similar vein, you can be rich and give your kids a normal, decent upbringing.

Extremely rare.

[Kowabunga]

 

 

[Fairy In Boots]

9 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

not pretty in the slightest. I'd say maybe she's got a nice personality but doesn't look like it. Nah.

There are some decent tories, louise mensch was the stand out before she fucked off.

Mensch is a full nut job thou, but I’d hit it. Berger for Labour is nice, Blackwood wasn’t too bad and Patel would get it. I’m not sold on mourdant however. There’s an SNP one that would get it but I can’t name her it’s not the chav one though 

 

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don’t like him because he’s a disingenuous little liar who doesn’t have much substance behind his debates but the media doesn’t like to call him out because he went to Eton and Oxford.

He recently called out another toff born into wealth about the lower standard his public school was. The crux of that debate is essentially “my daddy was richer than yours.”

I think Rees-Mogg is great for those who feel the need to have a toff lord over them though.

Bollocks you’d send your kid to Eton if you got the chance. Someone like Lammy is far worse imo, try’s to distance himself from his education and be a class and race baiting cunt to gain relevance.  I want my kids to have a far better education than I did, I don’t care if they become toffs, far better than “down to earth” watch googlebox that’s an accurate representation of this country at present, fucking thick & lazy. 

7 hours ago, Stan said:

 

So just because he's inherited richness means we can't like him?!

You can be rich and still not be a monumental cunt of a human being. Something which he fails to do. In a similar vein, you can be rich and give your kids a normal, decent upbringing.

Why is he such a cunt? I get you can disagree with his opinions etc but he always seems to be fairly courteous  and open to debate when met with disagreement which isn’t really the actions of a cunt. Somebody like Soubray is a cunt, can’t have a civil discourse with them they just start shouting. 

[RandoEFC+]

Seeing some of the people that have come out of Eton I think that's one of the last places on the planet I'd send my children to school even if I won the lottery 37 times in a row.

Hard work in a normal school will get you a good education, academically and vitally, socially as well. Learning about the world and the people around you is more important for a child's education than GCSE results or whatever pompous and elitist alternative they may or may not provide at Eton, and that's coming from a secondary school teacher.

I'd much rather have a dumb kid with values than a snob for a child with all of the pathways open to them to become the fattest cat in all the land. The thought of having offspring turn out like Rees-Mogg actually makes me sick, as I'm sure everyone can see by me making the same point four times in different ways about not wanting to send my kids to Eton.

[Fairy In Boots]

14 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Seeing some of the people that have come out of Eton I think that's one of the last places on the planet I'd send my children to school even if I won the lottery 37 times in a row.

Hard work in a normal school will get you a good education, academically and vitally, socially as well. Learning about the world and the people around you is more important for a child's education than GCSE results or whatever pompous and elitist alternative they may or may not provide at Eton, and that's coming from a secondary school teacher.

I'd much rather have a dumb kid with values than a snob for a child with all of the pathways open to them to become the fattest cat in all the land. The thought of having offspring turn out like Rees-Mogg actually makes me sick, as I'm sure everyone can see by me making the same point four times in different ways about not wanting to send my kids to Eton.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2016/feb/24/privately-educated-elite-continues-to-take-top-jobs-finds-survey

Yeah but the state churns out guff in reality, 2 of my cousins are teachers absolutely thick as pig shit it’s shit money being a state teacher that’s why the talent goes private and private gets better results. 

I did my work experience in a school of all places, it was like the channel 4 show teachers, teachers “playing go stand next to which one you think will end up in prison” during exams. 

Where as poor kids on scholarships at Eton do fantastical well I’m life, that’s social mobility. 

[RandoEFC+]

2 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2016/feb/24/privately-educated-elite-continues-to-take-top-jobs-finds-survey

Yeah but the state churns out guff in reality, 2 of my cousins are teachers absolutely thick as pig shit it’s shit money being a state teacher that’s why the talent goes private and private gets better results. 

I did my work experience in a school of all places, it was like the channel 4 show teachers, teachers “playing go stand next to which one you think will end up in prison” during exams. 

Where as poor kids on scholarships at Eton do fantastical well I’m life, that’s social mobility. 

It depends what you want out of life and what you want for your kids. There's one private school on the Isle of Man and I was sent to do the scholarship exam there because my Dad went to it and my Grandma on his side pushed for him to get me to go as well. I was offered a 40% scholarship but I never wanted to go there, and ended up going to the 'state' school instead with all of my friends. I've never regretted it, I got good results at GCSE and A Level and have gone on to do a job I love doing, even if I didn't always know that's where I was going to end up. 

Had I gone down the private route I may have become a doctor, or even a private school teacher instead, you never know whether you'd be happier in that parallel universe but I do know that my schooling experience would have been very different from the one I had which I really enjoyed.

For me life is more than going where the money is, as long as I make enough to give my family a decent life when I have one. Doing fantastically well in life for me doesn't need to be moving into a mansion or seeing my two kids grow up to be surgeons. As long as I retire knowing that I've done my best as a teacher to educate the students that have sat in front of me and helped them grow, and as long as my kids fly the nest with the opportunity to pursue the life they want, that's doing fantastically well as far as I'm concerned, as cheesy as it sounds.

I have no issue at all with the students you mention working hard for scholarships at a school like Eton to give themselves better life opportunities. That's the type of thing we need to see more of from our younger generation. All I'm saying is that if I was filthy, stinking rich, getting my kids into Eton wouldn't be my priority unless they particularly knew they wanted to be a leading doctor or the prime minister. I don't think it's very healthy for young people who come from that sort of 'sheltered' upbringing to go to an elite private school where they won't gain that insight into how things are in the real world outside the bubble of wealth.

[Fairy In Boots]

7 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

It depends what you want out of life and what you want for your kids. There's one private school on the Isle of Man and I was sent to do the scholarship exam there because my Dad went to it and my Grandma on his side pushed for him to get me to go as well. I was offered a 40% scholarship but I never wanted to go there, and ended up going to the 'state' school instead with all of my friends. I've never regretted it, I got good results at GCSE and A Level and have gone on to do a job I love doing, even if I didn't always know that's where I was going to end up. 

Had I gone down the private route I may have become a doctor, or even a private school teacher instead, you never know whether you'd be happier in that parallel universe but I do know that my schooling experience would have been very different from the one I had which I really enjoyed.

For me life is more than going where the money is, as long as I make enough to give my family a decent life when I have one. Doing fantastically well in life for me doesn't need to be moving into a mansion or seeing my two kids grow up to be surgeons. As long as I retire knowing that I've done my best as a teacher to educate the students that have sat in front of me and helped them grow, and as long as my kids fly the nest with the opportunity to pursue the life they want, that's doing fantastically well as far as I'm concerned, as cheesy as it sounds.

I have no issue at all with the students you mention working hard for scholarships at a school like Eton to give themselves better life opportunities. That's the type of thing we need to see more of from our younger generation. All I'm saying is that if I was filthy, stinking rich, getting my kids into Eton wouldn't be my priority unless they particularly knew they wanted to be a leading doctor or the prime minister. I don't think it's very healthy for young people who come from that sort of 'sheltered' upbringing to go to an elite private school where they won't gain that insight into how things are in the real world outside the bubble of wealth.

I agree with all those sentiments, like all issues there’s always exceptions to the norm and cases where it’s not the ideal.

My teacher urged my mom to put me for the 11+ For to grammar but she wouldn’t because she was afraid she couldn’t socially compete as a widow with 2 kids. So I went to normal secondary as the clever kid from primary, by year 8/9 I was in with a bad crowd and it detracted from my education. I didn’t turn up for several GCSE exams because I was off getting pissed or stoned.

It’s taken me till my early 30’s to catch up really. I don’t want that for mine. I want top education, I can teach morals and manners 

[Inverted]

The primary thing I always think about the Eton mob is that for all the resources pumped into their education, they often seem quite thick. It seems that for people growing up in that kind of environment, the development of the ability to self-promote without shame or doubt, and to bluster through any real scrutiny, is given much more priority than the development of deep knowledge or critical thinking abilities. It's like school debating: you get given a topic on short notice, and you do a tiny bit of research, but fundamentally the way you win is by bluffing over your lack of expertise and by confusing your opponent. 

This intellectual weakness is normally covered up with a superficial knowledge of the Classics and an ability to hit out with pithy references to Greek or Roman mythology. 

I would exclude Rees-Mogg from this characterisation though. I don't think Mogg is stupid at all, although he is enormously socially and emotionally stunted. He is intelligent in pursuing his own interests, and in covering it up. He's very good at dressing up his position as a ruthless financial speculator and agitator behind his image as the naive, philosophical upper-class eurosceptic.

He is socially "stupid", but he's self aware enough to realise that being perceived in the way he is actually a useful distraction in many ways. If people are too busy making fun of your nanny and the way you speak and dress, you can get away with more behind the scenes.

 

Edit:

To touch on the previous discussion:

If I had the choice I would still choose to send my kids to a state school, unless it was a total shithole. But if you're well-off enough to send your kids to private school then you're likely going to have a decent state school nearby. 

I'd only consider a private school if I really thought the kid was seriously lacking intellectually or in work ethic - specifically meaning that they'd seriously struggle at getting the grades to get into a decent course at a decent uni. If they're bright and reasonably dedicated, they'll learn much better in a state school, they'll easily get the grades to get into a good course anyway, and they'll also come out much more socially rounded as well. 

Edited April 13, 2019 by Inverted

[Dr. Gonzo]

14 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Bollocks you’d send your kid to Eton if you got the chance. Someone like Lammy is far worse imo, try’s to distance himself from his education and be a class and race baiting cunt to gain relevance.  I want my kids to have a far better education than I did, I don’t care if they become toffs, far better than “down to earth” watch googlebox that’s an accurate representation of this country at present, fucking thick & lazy. 

I probably will have the chance to send my kids to Eton tbh, life’s been surprisingly good to me. I think there’s better places for my kid to get an education though. I also think that an expensive school doesn’t necessarily make for an educated student.

[The Artful Dodger]

I am in favour of selective education to an extent, I just think the grammar schools were too defining at such a young age and ended up being mainly shoring up the middle class kids for good jobs and fuck the rest. Obviously there were exceptions and it's arguable that social mobility is even worse nowadays. We need proper streaming in our schools, backed up by better teaching standards. I went to a local comprehensive and apart from the odd decent teacher, the majority were piss poor just there for the pay cheque, honestly in my history lessons I'd know more than the teacher. Granted I was a bit of a nerd on history but it was embarrassing at times. A proper streaming in all subjects and proper discipline will give people a better chance, people can move between sets each year if they improve and even the bottom class must be required to hit a minimum standard, rather than being forgotten about as they are now.

[Asura]

 

[Guest]

@Dr. Gonzo @Stan @Harvsky

Interesting discussion I was having with  someone the other day. Won't happen but say we establish that 52% of people want to leave the EU but only 42% want a hard Brexit, the other 10% want a softer brexit and 48% want to remain. What is the right thing to do then? Some may argue that we have a hard brexit because more people voted to leave and that was the most popular vote out of that.  Others may argue we have a softer brexit because that is giving everybody a bit of what they want. Others may argue we stay because that is the most popular option out of the 3. 

This is a bit where I'm at. I voted to stay but I'm more neutral now. However I think brexeters aren't in agreement about what kind of brexit they want where as remainers are.

The most fairest way would be to establish whether the people who want a soft brexit would prefer to stay or have a hard brexit but that won't happen.

So I think the thing to do is establish what brexit will be and then vote on that.  

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Guest

[Stan]

44 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Dr. Gonzo @Stan @Harvsky

Interesting discussion I was having with  someone the other day. Won't happen but say we establish that 52% of people want to leave the EU but only 42% want a hard Brexit, the other 10% want a softer brexit and 48% want to remain. What is the right thing to do then? Some may argue that we have a hard brexit because more people voted to leave and that was the most popular vote out of that.  Others may argue we have a softer brexit because that is giving everybody a bit of what they want. Others may argue we stay because that is the most popular option out of the 3. 

This is a bit where I'm at. I voted to stay but I'm more neutral now. However I think brexeters aren't in agreement about what kind of brexit they want where as remainers are.

The most fairest way would be to establish whether the people who want a soft brexit would prefer to stay or have a hard brexit but that won't happen.

So I think the thing to do is establish what brexit will be and then vote on that.  

 

I'd guess this is where we are heading because of all the discrepancies and disputes on all the different types of Brexit and options available. 

Gotta have a selection of votes in my personal opinion. It's not as simple as just leave or remain any more and hasn't been for quite a while since the realisation many months ago that there'd be no straightforward leave options.

But then again, you'd need to ensure the right information is out there for people to vote. Some people I'd guess just want to leave regardless because they're just bored of it all now which is fair enough and their entitlement to do so but I don't think it's the wisest thing to vote like that out of boredom. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

That's been the thing to do since the referendum. I'd argue that the Brexiteers maybe should have had a more unified stance before the electorate voted on it, but that wasn't really physically possible with the mechanism put in place for a country to leave the EU. They'd be promising something they couldn't really guarantee... although, it's not like that stopped them in the reality we live in 

But yeah, the first obvious step to assessing how to go forward with Brexit is to have a concrete set plan on how we're leaving the EU, because then we'll be able to at least make a guess of what that actually means. So far, the only time an agreement was reached between the government and the EU, parliament rejected it pretty emphatically though - so we know there is one vision of Brexit that is pretty roundly rejected.

I think this is just far too divisive of an issue for there to be a truly satisfied majority.