Bayern sack Carlo Ancelotti - Heynckes takes over until the end of the season

[Viva la FCB+]

On 9/29/2017 at 7:49 AM, Blue said:

Or they didn't buy enough. Tolisso, James and Gnabry were the only 3 am I correct? or at least the 3 big ones. No one is going to convince me that James was a bad signing especially on the deal they got him on.

Also baught Süle and got Rudy on a free transfer. I dont think the squad is the problem at all, the formations and player selection was very questionable throughout his tenure. The only transfer that made no sense was Gnabry but thats a story for another day. The rest are all looking like great signings, Rudy could prove to be the best for that matter. To his credit to start this season he was rotating alot more then last.

[SirBalon]

51 minutes ago, bozziovai said:

exactly.    what happened to Carlo is just like what happened to Jose in Chelsea and Claudio in Leicester where players banded together against their coach.

 

are players becoming pussies nowadays ???  they've become prima donnas.   

 

There’s absolutely no excuse. Because if this is the case, then let the players be the coach. Look at PSG now where there’s total anarchy! Unai Emery would do well to leave. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Viva la FCB said:

Also baught Süle and got Rudy on a free transfer. I dont think the squad is the problem at all, the formations and player selection was very questionable throughout his tenure. The only transfer that made no sense was Gnabry but thats a story for another day. The rest are all looking like great signings, Rudy could prove to be the best for that matter. To his credit to start this season he was rotating alot more then last.

I do actually think you lot are stagnating a bit. Sure there is the occasional change like Vidal, Kimmich and of course James but in certain areas I do feel not much is changing or just declining in general. 

Personally I've always found Boateng in particular to be overrated but I saw that Sule has started the last 2 games over him. Also not a huge fan of Arturo Vidal.

Bayern as the club they are need to make high profile signings, like James but I think they might need a slight rebuild to compare to the side Heynckes had a few years back. Finding players like Kimmich is the perfect way to continue alongside a few high profile signings. I've said it a few times but I think Timo Werner is perfect for Bayern Munich.

The squad should be enough to win the league (or at least do better than currently) but those are a few thoughts on what I think on Bayern at the moment. It all blends into how I thought the Germans would stagnate until Low called up that squad for the confederations cup.

[bozziovai]

3 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

There’s absolutely no excuse. Because if this is the case, then let the players be the coach. Look at PSG now where there’s total anarchy! Unai Emery would do well to leave. 

players forget their roles.   they think that now that there's the internet and the media is always on the look-out for some scoop that they can control what happens in the club.

[TrstnFCB]

 

Was really busy this week so wasn't able to keep up with much news, but had a strong feeling this would happen after we lost to PSG. Personally hope this signals a more back to the roots mentality. Would like to see us get a coach who at least spoke fluent German before coming to the team... I'll go against the grain a little here and say I don't think we need any "world class" rated coach this time around, but a coach who can make us tick and work as a unit the way Jupp did. That doesn't necessarily mean a coach deemed "world class" by non-Bundesliga fans.

37 minutes ago, Blue said:

I do actually think you lot are stagnating a bit. Sure there is the occasional change like Vidal, Kimmich and of course James but in certain areas I do feel not much is changing or just declining in general. 

Personally I've always found Boateng in particular to be overrated but I saw that Sule has started the last 2 games over him. Also not a huge fan of Arturo Vidal.

Bayern as the club they are need to make high profile signings, like James but I think they might need a slight rebuild to compare to the side Heynckes had a few years back. Finding players like Kimmich is the perfect way to continue alongside a few high profile signings. I've said it a few times but I think Timo Werner is perfect for Bayern Munich.

The squad should be enough to win the league (or at least do better than currently) but those are a few thoughts on what I think on Bayern at the moment. It all blends into how I thought the Germans would stagnate until Low called up that squad for the confederations cup.

I think anyone who thinks Boateng is overrated hasn't watched him much. He's been an absolute hero for us more times than I can count. I rate him over Hummels frankly. His only real downside in the past was his temper or needless fouls, but he's gotten a bit better with that over the years. Also the reason he hasn't been starting much lately is because he's just coming back off a lengthy injury, nothing to do with actual quality or performance. Süle is absolutely a great defender though and should be starting over the likes of Martinez any day. Martinez has been the one mistake both Ancelotti and Pep made. His time as defensive midfielder was phenomenal, but as a centre back he's a mess.

I totally disagree with anyone arguing that we need to make more "high profile signings." Our club history says otherwise if you compare us to big non-German clubs. It was often smart signings that others overlooked entirely, or bringing young players up from the academy or elsewhere who turned into long-term stars that has made us what we are. I don't much give a shit about "big club status" or taking the approach of the big English and Spanish clubs or the likes of PSG. There is nothing wrong with our players at the moment, what we've been severely lacking lately is motivation, team spirit and appropriate tactics. I also do like our recent signings, particularly Süle, Rudy and Tolisso. The only mistake we made was not bringing in at least one new winger after Costa left. Anyway, we'll see what happens after the international break.

[Viva la FCB+]

On 9/29/2017 at 8:40 AM, Blue said:

I do actually think you lot are stagnating a bit. Sure there is the occasional change like Vidal, Kimmich and of course James but in certain areas I do feel not much is changing or just declining in general. 

Personally I've always found Boateng in particular to be overrated but I saw that Sule has started the last 2 games over him. Also not a huge fan of Arturo Vidal.

Bayern as the club they are need to make high profile signings, like James but I think they might need a slight rebuild to compare to the side Heynckes had a few years back. Finding players like Kimmich is the perfect way to continue alongside a few high profile signings. I've said it a few times but I think Timo Werner is perfect for Bayern Munich.

The squad should be enough to win the league (or at least do better than currently) but those are a few thoughts on what I think on Bayern at the moment. It all blends into how I thought the Germans would stagnate until Low called up that squad for the confederations cup.

The largest personal issue is not having apt replacements for Robery. Coman has shown flashes and alot of promise but hes not ready to take bulk of the games from them yet which is a problem. Boateng has just come back from another long term injury hes started 2 matches since coming back, hence Süle starting over him at this point. We will disagree on Arturo hes a big game player and we need players of his ilk, Tolisso i figure was signed as a future replacement for him a few years down the road.

At this point Werner isnt needed, Lewy starts nearly every game and knock on wood rarely gets hurt. In the future could it make sense? sure. Even if we wanted Werner hes not going to leave RB to come play second fiddle and get 5-10 games a season until Lewy moves on. 

You mention Kimmich hes the gold standard for finding a real gem. Rudy and Süle are those type of signings for me. Rudy is an upgrade on the retired Xabi Alonso and we dont really have another player that can fill that role. Rudy has been excellent in every match hes played and i have no qualms about him. Would we be better to have a Varratti or Busqeuts, sure but that isnt realistic. The high profile signing you could argue was needed on the wing but thats literally it; Alexis for example would have been perfect. Instantly upgrade us on the wings and be a very capable backup for Lewy when needed. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Viva la FCB said:

The largest personal issue is not having apt replacements for Robery. Coman has shown flashes and alot of promise but hes not ready to take bulk of the games from them yet which is a problem. Boateng has just come back from another long term injury hes started 2 matches since coming back, hence Süle starting over him at this point. We will disagree on Arturo hes a big game player and we need players of his ilk, Tolisso i figure was signed as a future replacement for him a few years down the road.

At this point Werner isnt needed, Lewy starts nearly every game and knock on wood rarely gets hurt. In the future could it make sense? sure. Even if we wanted Werner hes not going to leave RB to come play second fiddle and get 5-10 games a season until Lewy moves on. 

You mention Kimmich hes the gold standard for finding a real gem. Rudy and Süle are those type of signings for me. Rudy is an upgrade on the retired Xabi Alonso and we dont really have another player that can fill that role. Rudy has been excellent in every match hes played and i have no qualms about him. Would we be better to have a Varratti or Busqeuts, sure but that isnt realistic. The high profile signing you could argue was needed on the wing but thats literally it; Alexis for example would have been perfect. Instantly upgrade us on the wings and be a very capable backup for Lewy when needed. 

Can only disagree with Vidal having seen him for both Juve and Chile, still a great player but not quite as good as some say he is. The rest I'll take your word on, you are the fan after all.

[Panna King]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

Or they didn't buy enough. Tolisso, James and Gnabry were the only 3 am I correct? or at least the 3 big ones. No one is going to convince me that James was a bad signing especially on the deal they got him on.

They bought other players from German teams, but are not ready yet for this big step.      Munich are an ageing team, just like the team Mourinho had at Inter Milan. 

[Viva la FCB+]

Makes alot of sense. Christian Falk has reported talks took place as well.

 

[SirBalon]

I'm hoping the real top players like Thiago Alcántara will look for a route out now. Seeing as they've listened to their "senior players", then those are the ones that should take the club forward as they seem to know how to take Bayern forward.

[Viva la FCB+]

Thiago's signed up for a further 4 years, hes done nothing but integrate to the club and philosophy and started nearly every important match i doubt hes going anywhere.

[SirBalon]

3 minutes ago, Viva la FCB said:

Thiago's signed up for a further 4 years, hes done nothing but integrate to the club and philosophy and started nearly every important match i doubt hes going anywhere.

Players sign up to many things mate and then other things occur.  I'm not saying that he's gonna leave because I took him out of the hat of real proper talented players that are at the club.  He is infact something many clubs need at the top end throughout Europe and the main reason why I took his name out like I could do with a few others is because those that were listened to seem to be the most important ones.

[Tommy]

Tuchel is always a gamble, but a very fortunate one if it works out alright. The man is a tactical mastermind, always a step ahead of everyone else. But his personality tends to clash with other strong personalities, which could be a big issue at Bayern.

[korab]

Bayern does not have many choices, they left their squad stale and that's it. They did first step by firing that NOBODY guy but next few steps pending. Ribery and Robben must go very fast to make space for new guys and stop fermenting the mood at the team, it does not matter if they still good or not, no future anyway. Forget Guardiola system of kicking ball around for ages and rediscover counterattack with fast moves and through balls. There are few players who waste their future in this team, the team needs at least 2 years to recover from Guardiola and Nobody and rediscover how to play football german way. 

[Lucas]

I really like Ancelotti. Always came across a real gentleman to me and a highly respected figure in the game. It's sad that he's been treated this way but player power is way to big these days.

It will be interesting where he goes next. There will be a few clubs who haven't necessarily started the domestic season well who will be keeping an eye on his situation.

Personally would love to see him back in the PL. Preferably at someone like Arsenal although that won't happen. Milan is a good shout though.

[Spike]

I wonder how Bayern would fair going from the 'lasesz faire' Ancellotti to overly meticulous Tuchel. Rumours are that Seniori would simply post the starting XI on a pinboard before each match, without even speaking to the team.

[Spike]

On 9/29/2017 at 6:25 PM, Teso dos Bichos said:

i think this is perfect opportunity for ancelotti to go back to ac milan and make them great again. 

It'd be far too difficult for Ancelotti. That team has far too many balancing issues for Ancelotti to arrive and 'make them great' again. He has historically never been a very strong manager in the league. He didn't particularly excel with that Milan team of the early 00s, he choked away a title against Montpellier as PSG, he choked as Real Madrid manager (aside from Ramos bailing his ass out in the penultimate moments), and regressed Bayern away from Pep. AC Milan need to steady their league struggles before they can dream of European nights.

Ancelotti is the type of guy that will excel when everything is working for him. Look at Chelsea in 09/10, he had a record season because Drogba, Malouda, Lampard, Anelka, Terry, Cole, and so forth had hit a peak in their careers they hadn't dreamed of. The next season, Lamps had a hernia, Drogba malaria, and everything fell apart, even though not much else had changed. He couldn't adapt to the situation bought Torres (according to Ray Wilkinson it was 100% Ancelotti) and failed to steady a patched-up team.

You cannot forget that Milan is the only team he has survived for longer than two seasons and in eight years, only won the Scudetto once.

[TrstnFCB]

Quote

Arjen Robben claims his son’s training sessions are better than Carlo Ancelotti’s

As more and more time passes, and more information emerges on the rift between Carlo Ancelotti and his players, Ancelotti looks worse and worse. If kicker is to be believed, it’s a surprise Ancelotti hadn’t been dismissed his post even sooner.

According to kicker, Bayern players were extremely unsatisfied with Ancelotti’s training sessions dating back to last season. Players such as Philipp Lahm and Xabi Alonso had gone to management to voice their displeasure with the coach, and it carried over into this season, with new leaders Manuel Neuer, Thomas Müller, and Jerome Boateng apparently speaking up.

The problem had become so bad that players set up extra sessions on their own at Säbener Straße. When Ancelotti forbade them, they simply did it privately at a different location. Arjen Robben has gone so far as to claim that his son’s training sessions in the “D-Jugend” (approximately ages 11-13) in Grünwald are run better than Ancelotti’s.

Among other details that have emerged, the hiring of Giovanni Mauri, a regular smoker, as fitness coach also raised eyebrows. Mauri's warm-up sessions for the team allegedly lasted all of three minutes.

And last but not least, Ancelotti hosted “joint Spanish-Italian meals” with players such as James and Thiago that may have influenced his lineup choices. A “poisoned atmosphere” prevailed in the locker room.

This conflict between players and coach may be the worst since Jurgen Klinsmann was in charge during the 2008/09 season. During Klinsmann’s tenure, the players also had to take matters into their own hands. In his book, Lahm claimed that players had to “get together independently before the game to discuss how we wanted to play.”

It is quickly becoming evident that Bayern’s 3-0 loss to PSG following a 2-2 draw at home against Wolfsburg were not the reason for his dismissal, but rather the last straws in a coaching tenure gone unfortunately wrong for all parties involved.

https://www.bavarianfootballworks.com/2017/10/2/16395866/carlo-ancelotti-firing-reasons-arjen-robben-giovanni-mauri-poisoned-atmosphere

 

I knew the training sessions under Ancelotti weren't great, that you could tell just with the way passing has suffered for example. Going between him and Guardiola was between two extremes where training is concerned with Guardiola only training passing and rarely shooting or penalties and Ancelotti barely any passing drills at all. Anyway, hard to decipher fact from fiction, but nothing claimed here sounds out of the realm of possibility and seems to add up. That said not sure Ancelotti and his staff is the only one to blame since there are other issues that exacerbated our mediocre performances (ex. lack of appropriate options on the wings, not to mention behaviour of some players that's inexcusable).

[Viva la FCB+]

I was reading over the weekend apparently Lahm and the named crew (Robben, Boateng, Müller etc) organized their own training sessions last season because they where so unhappy with how Ancelotti was running his. Kicker has some good quotes on the matter; (going by reddit translation)

Quote

All in all, that kicker report is pretty damning. The gist of it (most of it in the print edition): Robben, Neuer, Müller and Boateng as well as Lahm and Alonso last season complained to the Bayern board about Carlo's training methods. They felt he didn't improve the team or the players. Robben specifically said his son received better training with his youth team than Bayern did with Ancelotti. When the players organized individual training sessions on their own, Ancelotti forbade them. Players then moved to a different location for those training sessions. His fitness coach was smoking in the locker room and didn't do sufficient warm-up training (according to Kicker: Sometimes only 3 minutes). Ahead of the game against PSG, for the first time (!!) during his tenure in Munich, video analysis were made, but their results didn't enter the preparation for the game. There was no in-game coaching. All Ancelotti told them during the draw against Wolfsburg at HT was "you have to watch out better". Kimmich, Coman and Boateng were thinking about leaving the club. The team atmosphere was toxic because Ancelotti seemed to favour the Spanish players without an apparent reason.

The spanish players being favoured is bullshit to me but i cant say much about the rest.

[Tommy]

https://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/jupp-heynckes/zum-vierten-mal-bayern-trainer-53428446.bild.html

 

Jupp Heynckes is back for the fourth time at Bayern. Now that's a name I never thought I'd see in that business again. I like him though. So that definitely means that Bayern will go for Nagelsmann in the summer. 

 

Tuchel must have left a great impression in those talks 

[Rucksackfranzose]

Well, that´s a surprise. It´s nice to have Osram back.

[Faithcore]

It's nice to have Heynckes back in the Bundesliga.

I think it would be pretty weird if they are really doing that to wait for Nagelsmann for one whole season. He is surely very talented but he wouldn't be the first coach who is very successful with a "smaller" team and cannot transfer his football and tactics to a bigger team. 

Next to that he has not proven himself in the Bundesliga for a very a long time. 

[nudge]

Heynckes 

Interesting to see what happens next.

[Cicero]

On 9/28/2017 at 3:30 PM, carefreeluke said:

I would take him back happily. We struggled in his second season with us though and there were evident problems with the team.

We'd be going backwards if we appointed him. 

[Guest]

Not a great appointment for me. Jupp Heynckes is a legendary manager, he left Bayern on a high last time but at the end of the day, he's 72. It would be like if Boca were to reappoint Bianchi, Huracan to reappoint Menotti or Real Madrid to reappoint Del Bosque. Can only see this going backwards.