Denmark 1-1 England - Thursday 20th June, 2024

[Dave]

 

As much as I want to defend Gareth and not get carried away after one abject performance, he does make it hard when he makes comments like this.

We have a lot of talent in this squad and he's hung up over The Yorkshire Pudding.

[Coma+]

He's right, there's no Leeds grit in that team.  England r fucked.

[Stan]

 

[Devil]

Shocking performance right through the side, but the tone for the whole game is set by the starting eleven and he's getting it so badly wrong it's ridiculous.

The answer is already there, drop Bellingham in alongside Rice and play Foden through the middle. Play someone with pace to get in behind on the left hand side.

Left back wise he's left himself short as well hasn't he, Tripper looks completely lost. He can fill a void but he's a quarter of the player Shaw is down the left and it shows. We needed another left footed full back, I'm not the biggest Chilwell fan but he had to come to add balance to the squad.

Kane is a top striker but he'd dropping to deep because he's getting zero width from the wide men. The one time we got to the byeline he was in position to score. Dropping him isn't the answer for me, it's getting him the pace he needed to accommodate his lack of pace.

Controversial opinion but maybe we should have risked a spot on Rashford. I agreed he didn't deserve his place but he would at least give you an option in behind the full back. The fact Gordon hasn't even got a minute tells you all you need to know about his chances.

Also Southgates subs, try bring a bit more big club experience on. Fair enough throw Eze or Bowan on but give someone like Palmer minutes, he's been part of the city squad and Chelsea this season. 

Edited June 20 by Devil

[Stan]

Just now, Devil said:

The answer is already there, drop Bellingham in alongside Rice and play Foden through the middle. Play someone with pace to get in behind on the left had side.

I understand the need for change but don't think I'd be dropping Bellingham deeper. There's a way to keep Foden and Bellingham influential and they both excel further up the pitch. Sacrifice a defensive midfielder alongside Rice and let the attacking players do their thing. 

Kane kept coming back deep to get the ball. It occupies the space of the talented midfielders which brings opposition in and crowds their space. It's infuriating even more so because everyone knows how good Kane is good in the box but the amount of times he came deep today and then amble around the box instead of getting in scoring positions was angering. 

Bellingham is at his best making late runs into the box unchecked and being involved in the play in and around the box. I don't think sticking him deeper alongside Rice is the answer. 

Southgate just needs to pull his finger out and stop being so stubborn. No one will blame him if he changes it up and the game against Slovenia is another chance for that. He has to relax the shackles a bit (or a lot) and stop being so cautious. I can't wait til he's gone because the younger players who have 3 or 4 more tournaments in them are wasted with Southgate there, and they deserve a real chance to win an international trophy. 

[Machado]

Is Southgate seeing something the rest of us aren't?

Everyone and their dog on social media saying they should play with a midfield trio of Rice - Bellingham - Foden with someone else taking the left wing role. What's there to think about then?

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Machado said:

Is Southgate seeing something the rest of us aren't?

Everyone and their dog on social media saying they should play with a midfield trio of Rice - Bellingham - Foden with someone else taking the left wing role. What's there to think about then?

Thinking's not his strong suit

[Machado]

Funnily enough, what Southgate did with Trent, Martinez did with Cancelo against the Czech. Had him playing as a midfielder because he's a top tier chance creator on paper, as is Trent. Did not work.

I'm not going to pretend I'm Pep Guardiola here and try to explain why, but positional awareness, occupation of the right spaces at the right time and general decision making as a midfielder is probably not something you learn in a couple days.

It's not club football. These formations are like learning to ride a bike, and on day two you're already trying to go hands free. Suicidal.

Edited June 20 by Machado

[Devil]

28 minutes ago, Machado said:

Funnily enough, what Southgate did with Trent, Martinez did with Cancelo against the Czech. Had him playing as a midfielder because he's a top tier chance creator on paper, as is Trent. Did not work.

I'm not going to pretend I'm Pep Guardiola here and try to explain why, but positional awareness, occupation of the right spaces at the right time and general decision making as a midfielder is probably not something you learn in a couple days.

It's not club football. These formations are like learning to ride a bike, and on day two you're already trying to go hands free. Suicidal.

I've highlighted the Trent part as I agree he's a top class chance creator but not from the position he's being asked to create from. He's loves that zipping ball in behind the full back or across the field. 

I'd maybe consider moving him to right back and putting Walker alongside Stones. 

[Devil]

45 minutes ago, Stan said:

I understand the need for change but don't think I'd be dropping Bellingham deeper. There's a way to keep Foden and Bellingham influential and they both excel further up the pitch. Sacrifice a defensive midfielder alongside Rice and let the attacking players do their thing. 

Kane kept coming back deep to get the ball. It occupies the space of the talented midfielders which brings opposition in and crowds their space. It's infuriating even more so because everyone knows how good Kane is good in the box but the amount of times he came deep today and then amble around the box instead of getting in scoring positions was angering. 

Bellingham is at his best making late runs into the box unchecked and being involved in the play in and around the box. I don't think sticking him deeper alongside Rice is the answer. 

Southgate just needs to pull his finger out and stop being so stubborn. No one will blame him if he changes it up and the game against Slovenia is another chance for that. He has to relax the shackles a bit (or a lot) and stop being so cautious. I can't wait til he's gone because the younger players who have 3 or 4 more tournaments in them are wasted with Southgate there, and they deserve a real chance to win an international trophy. 

Bellingham is athletic enough to cover both roles to be honest. He could drop deep out of possession and bomb forward when we're in attack. He has that in his locker.

The alternative for me is playing Mainoo alongside Rice and making the decision to drop Foden from the eleven as a sacrifice for pace in the side. Gallagher isn't the answer for me, he hassles well but Mainoo has more technical ability to turn with the ball and make runs to create attacks.

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, The Palace Fan said:

He's just fishing, still hurt from the last Euros tournament, it's incredibly sad to see.

I did not have the intention of fishing. I just thought England was incredibly lucky to get a result against Serbia. Everyone I know said judging by the 2nd half, Serbia would have deserved a draw. 

 

Just checked the stats. Serbia did have even more shots on goal. You made me believe I was talking shit for a moment. 

 

[Dan+]

4 hours ago, The Palace Fan said:

As much as I think some of the criticism against Southgate is people looking for somebody to blame, if we don't make it to the semis at least and get beaten by a France, Germany or a Portugal then he should resign. 

He's done a fantastic job at changing the culture of this England team, but we know hes not a world class tactician and losing at an earlier stage to an inferior nation would show he's taken us as far as he can.

I think there is definitely an element of wanting somebody to blame, but I also cannot believe there aren't managers out there who can get more from this.

I think our squad is very imbalanced, something which he has contributed towards. This Trent in midfield business is starting to remind me of Hodgson doing the same with Rooney in 2016 just as an excuse to have him on the pitch. We make too big a fuss in this country of who is left out rather than about having a balanced team, and Southgate's fallen right into it. End this silly experiment now and start playing some round pegs in round holes.

Another issue I think we have is Pep tax. It's not just him but arguably Arteta too. I think so many of these players look out of their comfort zones playing for England. Beneficiaries of a system built to maximise their abilities in a very particular style. Look at Rice earlier - looked an absolute fish out of water a lot of that game because he hasn't got the same runs and options around him that he has at Arsenal. In England the top teams have become massively about players fitting a system while individual flair is dampened somewhat, and I think this is why a lot of them look a bit off when playing for England. Could be talking total rubbish here but just a theory.

This just isn't a team winning the tournament. I know we've often started fairly slow under him, but this isn't slow - we look frankly on a par with Slovenia at best. This group has been a massive much of a muchness. Three draws from the four games and a very tight unconvincing 1-0 win for England being the difference. I don't think he can play the percentages through this time.

I think the heavy criticism he's had from the pundits is quite telling. I think we all deep down know we're doing nothing this time around. That reaction in the studio post match today I've not seen over England since probably Iceland in 2016 - I think a lot of it is it hitting people that were convinced we'd win it that we aren't going to.

This just feels different. Rubbish in the build up. Rubbish in the tournament. You go away after not watching for a while and you think England's talent can carry us, but we offer so little. I think it's nowhere near a given we beat Slovenia either.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Good lord a midfield pairing of Rice and Trent from a team who were fancied favorites  

This team kiiiiiiinda reminds me of the Dutch team of old, where they had Van Persie, Sneijder, Robben, Vann Der Vaart as attacking weapons, but De Jong and Van Bommel in the center, and nobodies in defense. The attackers all played like individuals and it didn't tend to pan out well unless they played anti football. 

Now of course that Netherlands attack is better than Englands, and fuck me the midfield pair is too, but you get the point. 

[RandoEFC+]

Southgate mentioning Kalvin Phillips is revealing. Essentially confirms that he stumbled across something that vaguely worked 6 years ago when England made it the 2018 World Cup semi finals and hasn't had any fresh ideas since or any clue how to adapt his tactics to the forced changes in personnel. 

Euro 2020 was the best chance if we're being honest. Beating Germany in that tournament was the only time they've actually beaten a heavyweight on any of these runs. He should have gone after World Cup 2022 when there was no improvement and the run was entirely dependent on which round it was before England faced a genuine contender.

Thankfully for England, Foden, Bellingham, Rice, Stones, Pickford, Guehi, Alexander-Arnold all have many tournaments ahead of them as do most of the bench and some very talented players who haven't established themselves in the squad yet.

It will be hilarious if Man Utd do end up eventually going for Southgate. That would be all but confirmation that all of this talk of INEOS coming in with a bold new professional approach is a load of tripe.

[Dave]

8 hours ago, Dan said:

Another issue I think we have is Pep tax. It's not just him but arguably Arteta too. I think so many of these players look out of their comfort zones playing for England. Beneficiaries of a system built to maximise their abilities in a very particular style. Look at Rice earlier - looked an absolute fish out of water a lot of that game because he hasn't got the same runs and options around him that he has at Arsenal. In England the top teams have become massively about players fitting a system while individual flair is dampened somewhat, and I think this is why a lot of them look a bit off when playing for England. Could be talking total rubbish here but just a theory.

I said this to someone I was with at the Serbia match about Phil Foden. He was either making movements that our players couldn't pick out in possession, or he didn't have the players to cover for him when he was roaming and we had big gaps on the left side. It's why I'm not surprised both goals have come from down the right.

I haven't watched enough German Football this season to know if they do it for us but seeing the way Musiala and Wirtz swap sides and float past people seems far more effective in tournament football. 

[Smiley Culture]

A few thoughts from me: 

 

-  That was played at the pace and intensity of an early July friendly. I fully expect to see a game of a similar standard and quality in a couple of weeks time at a local ground to me. 

- Both sides were awful. As much as the English media meltdown has confirmed the sky is falling, Denmark were awful, too, which given their squad should make them as ashamed of their performance as England. 

- That is just eleven blokes slung on a pitch in the hope that something happens and they manage to win a game of football. It's a throwback to the 'golden generation' when you'd see a load of names slung on to the pitch with no tactics or tactical nous employed. It's bordering on some of the shite you see on social media from the FIFA generation where they just sling a load of people on a pitch and claim its a great XI. Alexander-Arnold is not a midfielder, he's just been shoehorned onto the pitch so he gets a game. His best asset is getting balls into the box from wide, so playing him centrally is nonsense. 

- England will go out to an organised team. They don't have to have big names, if someone has a decent tactical plan and sticks to their game, they'll probably beat England. 

[Michael]

I think it's clear that TAA should definitely be dropped for the next match. I mean Gallagher is an option to start in his position, but I'd personally have Bellingham play next to Rice, with Foden just in front of them in attacking midfield. Saka on the right wing and either Palmer or Gordon on the left. I think either would do a good job for England, but I definitely prefer Palmer. Palmer was the 2nd leading scorer in the Premier League last season, only behind Haaland. Palmer scored 22 league goals and also had 11 assists in the league last season. Not only is he extremely naturally talented, he has a real footballing brain, his footballing intelligence is remarkable for one so young. Palmer for me, would be a major asset in unlocking opposition defences for England.

Kane has to start upfront, despite some of the criticisms that seem to have come his way. He is our number one goal-scorer, England just need to support him more and we will get even more out of him. At the back, Walker has been excellent at right-back. Stones has been generally good in central defence as well, while Guehi has been a bit of a revelation next to Stones in central defence. Guehi has looked very solid and he has impressed me in both of England's matches so far at these Euros. At left-back, I am not Trippier's biggest fan, I'd much prefer Luke Shaw, but it seems like Shaw is still nursing his injury. So Trippier is our only real option at left-back right now. While Pickford has been solid enough as our keeper.

In general, I'd really like these changes to be made, but most of all, I think it's time to give someone like Palmer a chance. You can't not give someone like Palmer zero playing time, especially when we've struggled in the attacking 3rd at times so far in this tournament. Give the kid a chance Gareth!

 

Edited June 22 by Michael

[Reluctant Striker]

I'm not sure what the correct fix is, but TAA in midfield is not working.

I do still think my pre tournament feeling to have a LB-CB to let Stones move up to DM would be better than what we have seen.

Perhaps Rice-Bellingham-Foden, as a midfield 3, but would that be too open vs better teams?

Gordon on the left would suit England's & Kane's style of play. Foden would work better with Watkins. We haven't seen either as yet.

Still worth keeping in mind this is still as good a start as any other recent tournament. There were actually more questions after the 2nd match draws with Scotland (Euro 21) & USA (WC 22)