(QF) England (p)1-1 Switzerland - Saturday 6th July, 2024

[Rucksackfranzose]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

No change in rules. But also not what I was implying or insinuating. 

So if you don't get points for losing if you're playing attacking football but for losing playing dull football neither, why did you bring up the first fact? Or are you implying England are more likely to lose in the first case? If so, I don't want to hear any good word from an English forum member about any Premier League club or player anymore, because the qualitiy of these clubs and players can't be that good, if they have to play like they did against Slovenia not to lose. Against players from the mighty Slovenian, Danish, Polish, Swiss, and Austrian leagues. 

Edited July 8 by Rucksackfranzose

[Devil-Dick Willie]

7 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Not as embarrassing as getting knocked out though.

Here's the problem you're going to face though. When you get knocked out by the Dutch, or possibly in the final, the rest of the world is once again, just like the 2018 WC and 2020 Euros, going to remember you for being jammy shithouse gits who made it way further than they should based on a lucky draw, who embarrassed themselves at every opportunity and won fuck all. Then, Southgate will be gone, and his total legacy will be 'the guy who's team had the most incredible luck in history and still won fuck all'. That's the reality. On paper it looks much better than it is, and when you look back at this 8 year, 4 tournament period you will wish you had ANYONE else coaching Harry Kane, Phil Foden, Jack Grealish and Bukayo Saka during the peaks of their careers.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

"oh but our negative anti ball was the best way to win". Here is a list of tournament games you have played against real, actual decent teams, who you would say England were not favorites in, as the game was either a coinflip or England slight or major underdogs. 

Belgium - L
Croatia - L
Belgium - L
Germany - W
Italy - L
France - L

Wow. Some fucking real effective football. Really striving to win tournaments with that aren't we? Good shit Southgate well done mate, sacrificing football for results, and THOSE are the results? Spike is right I'd rather watch a team that's gonna Arsehole Slovakia 4-1, Switzerland 3-2, and Lose 4-2 to a top team every time if those are the results pragmatism is gonna bring me. 

[6666]

Either Deschamps is gonna strangle the life out of football and win the team or Southgate is gonna strangle the life out of football and win the tournament. Might as well be us. We've also not been as dire as France.

From an objective point of view, Spain vs. Netherlands would be better for football with both Deschamps & Southgate getting booted out from their jobs but I think that's unlikely.

[Machado]

11 hours ago, Gunnersaurus said:

@Tommy  @El Profesor. @Machado @Rucksackfranzose. I think you should cheer on England in this tournament. Just because the @Spike  and @Devil-Dick Willie breakdown will be epic if we somehow win it 

Only myself and @Pep Talk predicted England to win in the "pick the winner" thread, which is surprising to me. England should win one or two tournaments with some of these players, in the next 6 to 8 years that is, even if Southgate seems to be trying really hard to stop them.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Here's the problem you're going to face though. When you get knocked out by the Dutch, or possibly in the final, the rest of the world is once again, just like the 2018 WC and 2020 Euros, going to remember you for being jammy shithouse gits who made it way further than they should based on a lucky draw, who embarrassed themselves at every opportunity and won fuck all. Then, Southgate will be gone, and his total legacy will be 'the guy who's team had the most incredible luck in history and still won fuck all'. That's the reality. On paper it looks much better than it is, and when you look back at this 8 year, 4 tournament period you will wish you had ANYONE else coaching Harry Kane, Phil Foden, Jack Grealish and Bukayo Saka during the peaks of their careers.

Yeah probably but I’m not the one who appointed Southgate so I’ll enjoy the football terrorism while I can.

It’s honestly made funnier by people who don’t really give a shit if other countries play dogshit football and progress but get super wound up about England doing the same thing.

I hope whoever wins out of us vs the Netherlands wins the whole thing. Fuck France and Spain.

[El Profesor]

7 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Brazil 2002. Don’t think they cared too much and nobody, not even Germany, has the footballing pedigree of Brazil.

1994 is a good example of a faustian bargain made by Brazil.

And you're correct, nobody cared about the terrible quality of the football played by that side.

1994 Brazil played incredibly boring and defensive-minded football. 

At the same time, I was 6 back then, I don't think I've ever been part of such genuine explosion of joy.

I lived in a very small town and everyone went to the streets to celebrate. It was crazy. The same happened all over the country. 

 

 

 

[Spike]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah probably but I’m not the one who appointed Southgate so I’ll enjoy the football terrorism while I can.

It’s honestly made funnier by people who don’t really give a shit if other countries play dogshit football and progress but get super wound up about England doing the same thing.

I hope whoever wins out of us vs the Netherlands wins the whole thing. Fuck France and Spain.

Literally no one has excluded other countries from criticism, you’re imagining this.

[Dr. Gonzo]

53 minutes ago, Spike said:

Literally no one has excluded other countries from criticism, you’re imagining this.

That’s why this has dragged on for 9 pages with some shit like “how can England fans be happy with going to the semis like this” while the other thread’s 3 pages where a couple have mentioned France is shite. France have a player who seems pretty pleased they’ve gotten to the semis with no goals scored in open play, I think he thinks it means they’ve had an incredible defense.

I don’t think any football fans in the world like Southgateball, especially not England fans. But it’s not hard to imagine why England fans are pleased to be in the semis despite being shit.

[Spike]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That’s why this has dragged on for 9 pages with some shit like “how can England fans be happy with going to the semis like this” while the other thread’s 3 pages where a couple have mentioned France is shite. France have a player who seems pretty pleased they’ve gotten to the semis with no goals scored in open play, I think he thinks it means they’ve had an incredible defense.

I don’t think any football fans in the world like Southgateball, especially not England fans. But it’s not hard to imagine why England fans are pleased to be in the semis despite being shit.

I’m on an English site using English, I don’t know any any French people to discuss the team with or consume French language media. Just copy my posts into google translate and change the nouns from English players to French. There you go.

[Azeem]

Agree with the English members. Plenty of examples given of teams playing unsavory football but eventually winning and people only remember them winning not how they played. England are just scrutinized more, rightfully so bcz of the media attention they draw upon themselves 'ah muh best league in z world'

 

 

[Dan+]

England can't yet be compared to Greece or Portugal because we haven't won it. This sort of talk needs to be for when its won. We are one loss away from this tournament being blasted as Southgate's most abject by a mile and two bits of individual brilliance are the only thing thats kept us alive. We're giving too much credit to the organisation of Southgate this time around, game state is the main reason we haven't conceded many chances having only spent around 20 minutes of a game in front since Serbia. We've looked very vulnerable when attacked.

[Dan+]

Found this thread very interesting as well. Both England and France got taken to penalty shootouts by inferior opposition. France ended up on the tougher half of the draw by failing to beat an already eliminated Poland. I'm not so sure the defensive approach is really all that great this time around. England of all teams definitely cannot claim penalties are something we can rely on either:

 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

4 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah probably but I’m not the one who appointed Southgate so I’ll enjoy the football terrorism while I can.

It’s honestly made funnier by people who don’t really give a shit if other countries play dogshit football and progress but get super wound up about England doing the same thing.

I hope whoever wins out of us vs the Netherlands wins the whole thing. Fuck France and Spain.

I think it's a special case for a few reasons. 

1, as my compatriot in crime said already, this is an English forum. 
2, everyone has (mistakenly) sucked the knob of this england team for being a stacked jacked and ready to attack thick and rich best squad in the world side. They're wrong and Phil's bald head, but the reason they're wrong is the back 5 of England is somewhere between mid and solid. The midfield is somewhere between mid and solid, and your attack is bananas. Yet you're playing like a team who has a god tier midfield and defense with nobodies up top, rather than vice versa. The natural way to play with this side is to set up to outscore the opponent. Who cares if Prickford has an oopsie, or Guehi is found out here and there if you're aiming to score 3 goals per game.
Finally, I think for a team like Austria or Turkey or Switzerland (all of whom played FAR more enterprising football across the tournament) you'd forgive them for being organized and pragmatic. When you're a top 3 favorite you should be stamping your authority, not scraping past Slovakia AET.

Edited July 8 by Devil-Dick Willie

[Stan]

7 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

So if you don't get points for losing if you're playing attacking football but for losing playing dull football neither, why did you bring up the first fact? Or are you implying England are more likely to lose in the first case? If so, I don't want to hear any good word from an English forum member about any Premier League club or player anymore, because the qualitiy of these clubs and players can't be that good, if they have to play like they did against Slovenia not to lose. Against players from the mighty Slovenian, Danish, Polish, Swiss, and Austrian leagues. 

Might as well shut the forum down then if you're not allowed to give opinions. 

The argument put forward was that playing entertaining football and winning were equal. 

However, you can entertain and win, or not entertain and win. You can also entertain and lose. 

The ultimate point in football is too score more than the other side, right? No matter how it's done. I find it difficult to believe that if a smaller/lower-ranked nation played 'boring' and then won the tournament, that their fans would just sit there not being happy because they weren't 'entertained'. This is why the matter is more subjective than not. People like to be entertained, don't get me wrong. I do too when it comes to watching Leicester. But I also like points on the board and you don't only get that by playing entertaining football. 

Results should be priority. Added bonus if you do it in style. 

As for your comment about English players etc, you seem to totally ignore other mitigating factors like who they're managed by, the systems they play in, the players they play with etc. It's not just a flat rule of 'you can't comment because they didn't beat Slovenia. How basic do you want to get? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Dan said:

England can't yet be compared to Greece or Portugal because we haven't won it. This sort of talk needs to be for when its won. We are one loss away from this tournament being blasted as Southgate's most abject by a mile and two bits of individual brilliance are the only thing thats kept us alive. We're giving too much credit to the organisation of Southgate this time around, game state is the main reason we haven't conceded many chances having only spent around 20 minutes of a game in front since Serbia. We've looked very vulnerable when attacked.

The way I see it is we either inevitably fall apart at the first time we actually play someone decent, as has happened before under Southgate. And then worst case scenario is we’re knocked out and get a new manager. Or he keeps getting lucky as fuck.

Either way we can’t really lose

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Might as well shut the forum down then if you're not allowed to give opinions. 

The argument put forward was that playing entertaining football and winning were equal. 

However, you can entertain and win, or not entertain and win. You can also entertain and lose. 

The ultimate point in football is too score more than the other side, right? No matter how it's done. I find it difficult to believe that if a smaller/lower-ranked nation played 'boring' and then won the tournament, that their fans would just sit there not being happy because they weren't 'entertained'. This is why the matter is more subjective than not. People like to be entertained, don't get me wrong. I do too when it comes to watching Leicester. But I also like points on the board and you don't only get that by playing entertaining football. 

Results should be priority. Added bonus if you do it in style. 

As for your comment about English players etc, you seem to totally ignore other mitigating factors like who they're managed by, the systems they play in, the players they play with etc. It's not just a flat rule of 'you can't comment because they didn't beat Slovenia. How basic do you want to get? 

This is the elephant in the room, the monster under the bed, and the fart in the elevator all at once though. YOU AREN'T GETTING RESULTS. 

Flash back to WC 2014. You think a Southgate side who plays southgate football gets out of that group? Brother you just got a miracle from Portugal VS Georgia so you could play slovakia instead of the netherlands... then you got your cheeks clapped by fucking slovakia, and should have lost, but you didn't. Then you should have lost to switzerland, and were bailed out again. 

Can we all stop living in crazy world where England are this effective football machine that makes semis on the reg because they're sacrificing good football for results? Because you aren't. You suck AND are playing shit football. But for some reason the computer + jesus have collaborated and decided you don't have to play anyone harder than Ukraine until the semis for a 10 year period. 

[Dave]

There is a feeling of bleugh I feel about this run that I didn't experience in previous tournaments. I think it's a combination of the turgid football, the victim labelling from the players and the feeling that we are at the end of a cycle with the coaching staff. The previous tournaments felt different the convincing wins against Germany, Sweden and Ukraine. We havent been given a boost through drawing in 90 minutes to Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia and Switzerland whilst seeing the same issues.

But the winners get to rewrite history over time. I couldn't tell you how England got to the final in 1966, nobody cares that Italy and France were not the best teams in 2006 and it's very rarely mentioned now that France fiddled the run in 1998 to avoid Brazil until the final. So yeah, get that gold and watch the others on this forum have 'old man yells at cloud' vibes over this when these players are looked back on fondly in 2040.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

This is the elephant in the room, the monster under the bed, and the fart in the elevator all at once though. YOU AREN'T GETTING RESULTS. 

Flash back to WC 2014. You think a Southgate side who plays southgate football gets out of that group? Brother you just got a miracle from Portugal VS Georgia so you could play slovakia instead of the netherlands... then you got your cheeks clapped by fucking slovakia, and should have lost, but you didn't. Then you should have lost to switzerland, and were bailed out again. 

Can we all stop living in crazy world where England are this effective football machine that makes semis on the reg because they're sacrificing good football for results? Because you aren't. You suck AND are playing shit football. But for some reason the computer + jesus have collaborated and decided you don't have to play anyone harder than Ukraine until the semis for a 10 year period. 

Where have I said we're an effective football machine? 

Tell me one seriously simple thing - if we 'aren't getting results' how have we made it to the semis of a tournament, which includes knockout football? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's pretty or even preferred, but we're getting results. That's not even a point that can be argued

As for who we end up playing in each round, you make it sound like England and Southgate have some sort of control over. 

Is it England's fault Portugal fucked it over Georgia? What do you want England to do about that ? 

Should have lost to Switzerland. Oh look, we didn't. 

England don't get to choose their opposition in each group or round. Newsflash, no team does. You play who's in front of you and in tournament football, you do what you can do get through. Leave it til the 90th minute and stoppage time or extra time to get the win? So be it. Win on penalties? So be it. 

Am I a fan of that approach? Nope. Would I prefer to win and do so in style? Yep! If we win the Euros for the first time ever, will I be happy? You fucking bet. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

3 hours ago, Stan said:

Where have I said we're an effective football machine? 

Tell me one seriously simple thing - if we 'aren't getting results' how have we made it to the semis of a tournament, which includes knockout football? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's pretty or even preferred, but we're getting results. That's not even a point that can be argued

As for who we end up playing in each round, you make it sound like England and Southgate have some sort of control over. 

Is it England's fault Portugal fucked it over Georgia? What do you want England to do about that ? 

Should have lost to Switzerland. Oh look, we didn't. 

England don't get to choose their opposition in each group or round. Newsflash, no team does. You play who's in front of you and in tournament football, you do what you can do get through. Leave it til the 90th minute and stoppage time or extra time to get the win? So be it. Win on penalties? So be it. 

Am I a fan of that approach? Nope. Would I prefer to win and do so in style? Yep! If we win the Euros for the first time ever, will I be happy? You fucking bet. 

Because you played knock out games against Columbia, Sweden, Denmark, Ukraine, Senegal, Slovakia and  Switzerland. There is no nation on earth that would trade your draws in 2018, 2020 and 2024. None. Zip. You play (barely) winning football against mediocre teams and are eaten alive by good ones. As I already elaborated on earlier. You have a 1 and 5 record in 6 games against real decent sides. But sure, you make Semis... because you can beat Slovakia and Denmark AET and Colombia and Switzerland on pens. 
 

Edited July 8 by Devil-Dick Willie

[Stan]

1 hour ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I'd say give your head a wobble but that would be kinda racist in your case so I'll say have a cup of tea and a big think before you ask such a stupid fucking question again. 

Why so angry? And rude? You're better than that. Literally no need to resort to this considering we're talking football. 

Grow up. 

[Azeem]

The same old discussion every tournament lately

[Devil-Dick Willie]

40 minutes ago, Beelzebub said:

The same old discussion every tournament lately

Oh no, the english are chad and I am soy! What an awful day.

Because it's true. It's undeniable. In fact, it's widely accepted until you make the argument that England aren't getting good results, at which point they all point to the piece of paper that says 'semi finalists' on it and won't budge for some reason. 

[Gunnersaurus]

50 minutes ago, Stan said:

Why so angry? And rude? You're better than that. Literally no need to resort to this considering we're talking football. 

Grow up. 

He's always like that mate. If you look at his posts across a range of subjects he can't handle people disagreeing with him  on anything 

Edited July 8 by Gunnersaurus

[Devil-Dick Willie]

49 minutes ago, Stan said:

Why so angry? And rude? You're better than that. Literally no need to resort to this considering we're talking football. 

Grow up. 

Okay, I apologize. You're absolutely right. I'll delete the shitty part. Now counter my point. Tell me about the effective football that has seen you lose to Croatia, Italy, Belgium x2, France, but beat Germany. The effective football that requires never before seen consistent feats of luck that include injury time winners against Tunisia, an extra time dive against Denmark that was never a pen, an injury time worldie against Slovakia, An 80th minute worldie against the swiss, and your first ever penalty shootout victory against mighty mighty *checks notes*... Columbia?