No Further Action to be Taken After Firmino/Holgate Incident

[Honey Honey]

12 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

This goes back to the Suárez situation with mistranslation of vocabulary and also tha massive difference in culture.  Racism is racism but interpretation does get lost in translation many times.

Negro is indeed the word for Black in Spanish and in Portuguese it’s Preto while in Italian it’s Nero.

To make a reference to someone’s of Afro-Caribbean race in English we use the work black and not brown (the actual colour) and certainly not coloured in the “dark ages” of ignorance in the English speaking world.

In Spanish, Italian and Portuguese just as in the English language they use their own set vocabulary which is again the colour (Negro, Nero or Preto). Again as in English it’s everything else contained within that sentence that can determine whether the word is a racial slur or not but I have been witness to English speaking people that understand the foreign word for black being spoken in a foreign language thinking something of a racial nature is being muttered.  This in 90% of cases is not what’s ocurring but obviously for someone that doesn’t understand that language fully can never be sure.

With the Luis Suárez situation I and every Spanish speaker knows he wasn’t using a racist terminology but yet a media driven witch-hunt was set into motion and the rest is history now... I won’t go back into that because I said my part enough at the time.  He was labelled a racist by everyone due to the “victim” being of a disposition that offers more questions (in my personal opinion) than the supposed “offender”.

Maybe the media did misrepresent the word itself but it was a racist incident because the word does still mean the colour of his skin. Why else was he mentioning the colour of his skin if not to be racist?

I'm sure if Firmino said something race related in Portuguese we'll hear the same crap fudging excuse that it is ok in South America. 

It's not ok to mention the colour of someone's skin in conflict. 

[Honey Honey]

1 minute ago, Storts said:

Why the need to bring colour into it at all though? He was being racist and rightly banned, whichever way you try and spin it. Lets be honest Spanish speakers may not consider it to be because their record with racism is appalling. 

Damn. Sexy storts beat me to it by 25 seconds.

[LFCMadLad]

8 minutes ago, UNORTHODOX said:

I don't think he said anything racist  But If he has said something in reference to Holgate's skin colour then that's a racist remark even if he didn't flat out call him "nigger".

hopefully it's just handbags and it gets resolved without any controversy but if he's found guilty then he deserves whatever punishment they throw at him.

It doesn’t matter if he’s found guilty or not now. As I said earlier, shit sticks and he’ll receive ‘racist’ chants at every away ground he goes to from now on. 

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Storts said:

Why the need to bring colour into it at all though? He was being racist and rightly banned, whichever way you try and spin it. Lets be honest Spanish speakers may not consider it to be because their record with racism is appalling. 

There’s no such thing as “considering something to be something”... Something either is or it isn’t something!  English speakers don’t control the world on how they express themselves in their own culture while using their own vocabulary as they deem fit.

Where I do agree with you is why use someone’s colour in a situation such as this.  With this I’m not going to go into cultural differences because it’s long winded and to understand this is to have been brought up on it.

Just trust someone that comes from that culture when they’re genuinely being honest and telling you that no racial intent was meant.  Like I said... Let’s not search for a way for everyone to set themselves into another’s culture because they feel it has a superior ethical stance.  Cultural expressions exist and we can look into the history and reasons behind those expressions and debate that which is in hand, but to accuse someone of something that they feel they haven’t done is incorrect in my opinion and the opinion of other people around the world.

You have labelled him a racist and you don’t even now if he is a racist!  Also remember this one last point... Someone can actually say something that can be deemed racist and yet not actually be racist.  That can occur! With this, I’m not accusing or excusing anyone or any particular occurance, this one included.

Another small detail I want to add which I don’t know how it looks.  But Firmino doesn’t exactly resemble a white person and from what I’ve seen through searching his background, he has part black heritage... Seems very odd indeed that he can be a racist at all, but hey, this doesn’t exempt the possibility of this being the case.

[LFCMadLad]

7 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

Maybe the media did misrepresent the word itself but it was a racist incident because the word does still mean the colour of his skin. Why else was he mentioning the colour of his skin if not to be racist?

I'm sure if Firmino said something race related in Portuguese we'll hear the same crap fudging excuse that it is ok in South America. 

It's not ok to mention the colour of someone's skin in conflict. 

That’s the thing though, in some countries it is ok. If you are brought up in a country and a culture where saying ‘negro’ isn’t at all considered racist but then you hop on a plane and arrive in a place where if you do say it, it is offensive, that doesn't make you a racist. 

[UNORTHODOX]

7 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

It doesn’t matter if he’s found guilty or not now. As I said earlier, shit sticks and he’ll receive ‘racist’ chants at every away ground he goes to from now on. 

I know mate, If Holgate has falsely accused him of racism then he deserves to be punished too but unfortunately there will be no way to prove that Holgate falsely accused him because he can just claim that whatever Firmino said was lost in translation.

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, UNORTHODOX said:

I know mate, If Holgate has falsely accused him of racism then he deserves to be punished too but unfortunately there will be no way to prove that Holgate falsely accused him because he can just claim that whatever Firmino said was lost in translation.

Exactly 👍

[SirBalon]

8 minutes ago, Kitchen Sales said:

Maybe the media did misrepresent the word itself but it was a racist incident because the word does still mean the colour of his skin. Why else was he mentioning the colour of his skin if not to be racist?

I'm sure if Firmino said something race related in Portuguese we'll hear the same crap fudging excuse that it is ok in South America. 

It's not ok to mention the colour of someone's skin in conflict. 

I’m playing devil’s advocate here for the sake of it...

I agree with that and said so to Storts... Why bring up the colour of the skin of a person that’s just riled you.  I agree!

But for the sake of it... What if in his culture that’s a terminology of expression that is commonly used and not seen as a racial form of expression?  You see, that’s hard to understand for us here who may not have the exposure through upbringing or whatever to a particular culture.  We have set standards here and things that have either been eradicated from a form of thought or just simply never existed as a natural form of expression.

Someone that’s not born here, not fully aware of the cultural difference they’ve now settled into and where the amount of time spent so far in this changed environment they’re now a part of isn’t and never would be enough to change the chip on someone’s mindset and cultural upbringing.  They will continue to act and react naturally when spontaneously expressing themselves on the spur of the moment.  For me it’s always about premeditated intentions and that’s where I would question what Firmino has actually done.

The problem here is that people are measuring someone else’s standards by their own where something very complexed like environment, culture and upbringing is in question.  Conditioning is paramount to explaining many things in situations such as this one and others of a similar ilk.

[LFCMadLad]

Let’s get something straight here. There isn’t one person on this forum that hasn’t at some time or other, in a joking or angry state, said something that might be considered a racist comment. 

Anyone who says they haven’t are fucking lying. 

Doesnt make any one of us racists yet here we all are, claiming to be all Jesus and Moses as if we’ve never said a wrong word in our life. 

Suarez isn’t a racist, neither is Firmino and neither is John fucking Terry. As with everything in this country, it’s all been massively blown out of proportion. 

[Inverted]

I only brought up the language thing to ask if the Portuguese word was close enough to English that it could be understood by a normal English person.

As it stands I don’t think “Preto” would be recognised by anyone. So if he did say that, then they could only figure it out later and Holgate would have needed to have inferred something racist was said.

I saw someone on twitter refer to the word “Macaco” meaning monkey, which I think “sounds” closer to something racist than “Preto” to somebody with no knowledge of Portuguese.

The clips make it seem like whatever word he said as Holgate flips out ends in an “o” sound. Which could be Preto, Macaco, or just him repeating “Loco” as he had already said twice. Or anything.

Unless the ref can remember the word he said and then it translates into something race-based  I don’t see how this goes further.

[6666]

Don't think he used racist language, probably just regular trash talk. That said, he is definitely an asshole. He fancies himself as some bling era rapper.

[LFCMike]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

I don't think that Firmino said anything racist or that Holgate is lying, it's probably just lost in translation. Could be that that's what Madley went to talk to his fourth official about afterwards to check if it was racist? Though I don't know why Mike Dean would know Portuguese any better than him.

He went to the fourth official to inform him of the incident and the complaint, that's all. 

I agree he's misheard/it's lost in translation. 

[Spike]

Thisis a photo of Firmino post-match. He was justoffering some monkey soup to his new friend. Uma delicia.

[UNORTHODOX]

What the fuck 

[LFCMadLad]

53 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

He went to the fourth official to inform him of the incident and the complaint, that's all. 

I agree he's misheard/it's lost in translation. 

Meanwhile Firmino gets slated at every away game he attends whether he’s guilty or not. If Holgate wasn’t 100% positive that Firmino racially abused him then he should have kept quite. It’s a massive allegation that can affect someone’s career and personal life permanently. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, LFCMadLad said:

Apparently lip readers have distinguished that he said “you crazy son of a whore” in Portuguese. Many think that Holgate played the race card to distract the referee from sending him off for not only pushing Firmino into a set of fans, but for also laying his hands on the referee himself. 

Now, as always my view will be that if Firmino is found guilty of making racist remarks then he deserves what’s coming to him, a very lengthy ban. However, if it’s proven that Firmino made no racist remarks whatsoever and Holgate is just flat out lying then he should receive the same punishment. 

If Holgate is coming up with bullshit to deflect from the fact he should probably have been sent off for that shit, he should absolutely be banned.

Just like if Firmino is a racist he should be banned.

But if you make false allegations of racism to deflect from your obvious wrongdoing, you shouldn't just walk away if you're found in the wrong. And I'm fairly certain that's what's happened here.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

So were you there? Are you James Milner or Bobby Madley? Or are we just going to read what self proclaimed lip readers say happened on Twitter then spout it as gospel?

Lip readers were basically how Suarez got done in. Here there'll be more evidence as the terrible referee will be a witness.

[SirBalon]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Lip readers were basically how Suarez got done in. Here there'll be more evidence as the terrible referee will be a witness.

Lip-readers shouldn’t be the only element involved in these sorts of investigations in my view... There should also be someone from the culture in question involved and for me the most important thing once the investigation has reached a conclusion and before any (if any) punishment is handed out is that both parties (the “offender” and the “victim”) should be brought together with a mediator to debate the issue between the two.  All this just to totally and 100% make sure that the case is a reality made official seeing as someone labelled a racist can affect absolutely everything they ever do from there on. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Lip-readers shouldn’t be the only element involved in these sorts of investigations in my view... There should also be someone from the culture in question involved and for me the most important thing once the investigation has reached a conclusion and before any (if any) punishment is handed out is that both parties (the “offender” and the “victim”) should be brought together with a mediator to debate the issue between the two.  All this just to totally and 100% make sure that the case is a reality made official seeing as someone labelled a racist can affect absolutely everything they ever do from there on. 

The FA panel should absolutely do something along those lines. That's reasonable and thought out and considers the ramifications of being labled a racist. But common sense and the FA get along like oil and water.

[RandoEFC+]

Zzzz basically this is probably a load of fuss over nothing and all we've got here are people debating what might have been said and taking sides based on where their loyalties lie in football, whilst also agreeing that if he did say something like that he should be banned, so basically we're all arguing over something we don't actually know enough about.

@LFCMadLad I doubt anyone's arsed about Firmino getting racist chants though he surely will get some if he's found guilty. Football crowds are thick nobheads who will just shout something else vile at him if not this, and holding Holgate responsible for football fans being nobheads because he might have misheard something Firmino said is a bit of a stretch. But this isn't Luis Suarez who was already a hate figure for his handballs or biting or whatever so I can't see Firmino getting the dogs abuse he did after the Evra incident.

[Dr. Gonzo]

He'll get the chants regardless of whether he's guilty because of the accusations and people being fucking stupid in general.

[LFCMadLad]

6 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Zzzz basically this is probably a load of fuss over nothing and all we've got here are people debating what might have been said and taking sides based on where their loyalties lie in football, whilst also agreeing that if he did say something like that he should be banned, so basically we're all arguing over something we don't actually know enough about.

@LFCMadLad I doubt anyone's arsed about Firmino getting racist chants though he surely will get some if he's found guilty. Football crowds are thick nobheads who will just shout something else vile at him if not this, and holding Holgate responsible for football fans being nobheads because he might have misheard something Firmino said is a bit of a stretch. But this isn't Luis Suarez who was already a hate figure for his handballs or biting or whatever so I can't see Firmino getting the dogs abuse he did after the Evra incident.

So what you’re saying is that if someone is a racist and makes racist comments then they should take whatever punishment comes their way but if someone makes a totally false allegation then it should be swept under the carpet and the recipient of those allegations should just suck it up? 

[LFCMike]

48 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Meanwhile Firmino gets slated at every away game he attends whether he’s guilty or not. If Holgate wasn’t 100% positive that Firmino racially abused him then he should have kept quite. It’s a massive allegation that can affect someone’s career permanently. 

I think in the heat of the moment he could have genuinely thought that. He's obviously lost his head. But yeah, if it's proven that he wasn't then he needs to be a big boy a come out and apologise. I don't necessarily think he should be banned if it's proven not. 

A bit off topic but he can't be retrospectively be banned for the initial incident of pushing Firmino over the hoardings or pulling the refs shoulder as the ref obviously seen both incidents but the ref needs to be punished for not doing anything for either incident. He's had a shocker there

[El Profesor]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

Let me just add that Firmino is Brazilian and they speak Portuguese (obviously) where the word for black is Preto...  there is no way the word Preto can be interpreted for nigger or negro.

Actually "negro" is a better and more respectful term to refer to a black person than "preto" in brazilian portuguese.

Differently from english, the word "negro" itself is not offensive. My mom is half-black and some of her best friends call her "negra", in an affecionate way.

The main racial slur in Brazil is "macaco" ("monkey").  

[RandoEFC+]

7 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

So what you’re saying is that if someone is a racist and makes racist comments then they should take whatever punishment comes their way but if someone makes a totally false allegation then it should be swept under the carpet and the recipient of those allegations should just suck it up? 

If they can prove that Holgate knowingly made a false accusation to try and get Firmino banned which is still completely farfetched for me, then yes he should be punished.

But that won't happen because nobody can prove that's what he did and I seriously doubt seconds after the petulant shove on Firmino that Holgate was calm enough to do something so premeditated to someone who is basically the same skin colour as him.