UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Inverted]

47 minutes ago, BartraPique1932 said:

But Maybot needs to ask parliament to give her permission to take back her letter just like when she asked parliament to give her permission to trigger article 50, doesn't she?

How are the chances for her to get permission? On one hand most parliamentarians know Brexit is a really bad idea, but on the other hand they have political ambitions, too.

Well her deal would need to get voted down first. That would stand a large chance of pushing the case for a second referendum.

If that referendum were to be Remain, then the pressure would be enormous to revoke the letter and she likely would. If she were still PM. If she refused then Parliament would find someone who would revoke Article 50. 

In either case, it seems that May has seen this risk and has now called off the vote on the deal.

[God is Haaland]

8 minutes ago, Inverted said:

Well her deal would need to get voted down first.

I take that for granted. Thanks for your insight, mate.

[Inverted]

19 minutes ago, BartraPique1932 said:

I take that for granted. Thanks for your insight, mate.

Yeah sorry I misunderstood. 

Considering the judgement in Miller from the Supreme Court, it seems to me that yes May would need Parliament to approve a revocation of our Art 50 notice.

Considering most Parliamentarians are Remain, in the case of a referendum I think most would feel very at ease in approving a revocation. Without a referendum, it would be unlikely unless May's deal was defeated and some further development pushed us into even more disorder.

 

edit:

Now that I think of it, the reason the court said May needed Parliament to approve triggering Article 50 was because it removed rights from British citizens.

Revoking the notice wouldn't remove any rights, in fact it would only undo the removal that Article 50 would cause. 

Maybe she wouldn't need a vote, idk actually. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Inverted

[Stan]

Quote

 

Theresa May is to make a statement to MPs at 15:30 GMT amid reports Tuesday's vote on her Brexit deal is being delayed.

That will be followed by a statement from Commons leader Andrea Leadsom - and then a statement from the Brexit secretary on Article 50.

Two cabinet sources have told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg Tuesday's planned Brexit vote will be delayed

There is not yet any official confirmation of the move.

Downing Street had been insisting the vote would go ahead, despite Mrs May being widely expected to lose it.

The pound fell 0.4% against the US dollar to £1.26, following reports the Brexit vote would be delayed. Against the euro, the pound was down 0.6% at 1.10.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46509288

[God is Haaland]

2 hours ago, Inverted said:

Now that I think of it, the reason the court said May needed Parliament to approve triggering Article 50 was because it removed rights from British citizens.

Revoking the notice wouldn't remove any rights, in fact it would only undo the removal that Article 50 would cause. 

Maybe she wouldn't need a vote, idk actually. 

That's a good point, but removal of rights from British citizens is not the only action that would require a parliamentary vote. As far as I understand "a change in the law of the land" in general is a valid reason. For instance if an act of parliament would be changed by revoking the letter this would mean that May needs the consent of the parliament. However I can't think of any such act apart from the "European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act" itself maybe haven't found how this act would be changed.

Edited December 10, 2018 by BartraPique1932

[Stan]

May has confirmed the Brexit vote is to be deferred.

[God is Haaland]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/norwegian-politicians-reject-uks-norway-plus-brexit-plan

Quote

[...]

They attacked the idea as “neither in Norway nor the UK’s interest”. The UK would need Norway’s permission to join its Efta club.

[...]

Explaining Norway’s fear of the UK joining the Efta club, she said: “The three countries in Efta have to agree on all the regulations coming from the EU, so if one country vetoes something we all have to veto, which means that if the UK enters the Efta platform and starts to veto regulations that we want, this will affect not just the UK but also us as well. Part of the success we have had with this EEA agreement is for the last 25 years is that we do accept the rules and regulations that do come out of the EU, mostly because it is in our interest.

[...]

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by BartraPique1932

[SirBalon]

Total chaos! But understandable although cowardly and damaging...

Labour ready to pounce and call for a second referendum from the soundbites on the grapevine. 

Just call the whole thing off and revoke article 50! Do the job you've been put there to do and not place the people on the pedestal of doing it for you when they have no idea.

[6666]

This is probably a bigger deal to the Tories than poverty.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

It seems like May's actions will always be in what creates the most chaos. Pretty mental how much money the government threw at ads to back this deal that they've then decided to shelve.

[God is Haaland]

4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Total chaos! But understandable although cowardly and damaging...

Labour ready to pounce and call for a second referendum from the soundbites on the grapevine. 

Just call the whole thing off and revoke article 50! Do the job you've been put there to do and not place the people on the pedestal of doing it for you when they have no idea.

The problem is Corbyn wants a referendum without a "no Brexit" option.

[SirBalon]

8 hours ago, BartraPique1932 said:

The problem is Corbyn wants a referendum without a "no Brexit" option.

That would have to be one of the options without a doubt because it's plainly clear to everyone now that there is absolutely no such thing as a better deal than actually being in the European Union.

[Panna King]

Brexit means Brexit!

[Fairy In Boots]

4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

That would have to be one of the options without a doubt because it's plainly clear to everyone now that there is absolutely no such thing as a better deal than actually being in the European Union.

Why haven’t you moved back to Spain to stay in your beloved union then? Or better yet when are you moving after April? 

You’re not going anywhere, you’re just having a childish tantrum spraying piss all over this thread, It’s tiresome now your constant moaning. If you don’t like it why don’t you leave then? 

The sky isn’t going to cave in in April if we have a no deal, we’ll have some pain almost certainly but after that we could do very well. You’re just a doom merchant utterly unhinged from all the remainer propaganda you chew on. 

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Why haven’t you moved back to Spain to stay in your beloved union then? Or better yet when are you moving after April? 

You’re not going anywhere, you’re just having a childish tantrum spraying piss all over this thread, It’s tiresome now your constant moaning. If you don’t like it why don’t you leave then? 

The sky isn’t going to cave in in April if we have a no deal, we’ll have some pain almost certainly but after that we could do very well. You’re just a doom merchant utterly unhinged from all the remainer propaganda you chew on. 

I pardon you for your insular motivated statement!  The sort of statement that's being heard all over the UK by some people like yourself...

But I pity you mate, I don't hate you at all and you are just a victim of all the garbage that's been spouted by the media over the years which has conditioned you to feel in the manner that you do.

Why should I move anywhere other than stay in the place where I was born?

I am as British as you and on that mark you can't dispute the fact I put before you, facts being something that unfortunately you and others like you will never be able to digest.

Britain doesn't have to disassociate itself from the continent it resides in at all and all the facts point to everything being more beneficial to our citizens by staying within the EU and having a say in its running.  We need the EU and that's a fact!

But if I were to move anywhere else, it would be because I've merited it and would still remain British by birth, the same rights as you enjoy, no more, no less.  I would Infact invite to you to my abode and offer you to partake in a wonderful Paella that I am quite famous for amongst my circle of friends and family.  You would then maybe feel that there's no evil European trying to take something that belongs to you.  

[Machado]

Go back to your country... oops, this is your country. Err.. but you like the EU, so go back to Spain! I mean not "back" because you were born here, but still, go there!

Edited December 11, 2018 by Machado

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, SirBalon said:

I pardon you for your insular motivated statement!  The sort of statement that's being heard all over the UK by some people like yourself...

But I pity you mate, I don't hate you at all and you are just a victim of all the garbage that's been spouted by the media over the years which has conditioned you to feel in the manner that you do.

Why should I move anywhere other than stay in the place where I was born?

I am as British as you and on that mark you can't dispute the fact I put before you, facts being something that unfortunately you and others like you will never be able to digest.

Britain doesn't have to disassociate itself from the continent it resides in at all and all the facts point to everything being more beneficial to our citizens by staying within the EU and having a say in its running.  We need the EU and that's a fact!

But if I were to move anywhere else, it would be because I've merited it and would still remain British by birth, the same rights as you enjoy, no more, no less.  I would Infact invite to you to my abode and offer you to partake in a wonderful Paella that I am quite famous for amongst my circle of friends and family.  You would then maybe feel that there's no evil European trying to take something that belongs to you.  

I thought you were Spanish by birth and lived here a number of years, in which case I apologise it wasn’t meant as a “fuck off back home”, it was a challenge to your constant assertions we’re doomed. 

The question is pertinent though, you speak fluent Spanish, why if you’re so convinced we’re heading for oblivion in April aren’t you looking to move beforehand? I would be if I was in your shoes and I thought the UK was fucked. 

Also what “facts” there’s no facts, there’s projections but no facts because we’ve not left yet. What is the point of me arguing projections with you? It’s pretty much pointless arguing in this thread anyway.  Most of the projections pre & post Brexit about the U.K. economy have been wrong, why should some spurious article that claims “we’re going to be fucked in 5 years” make any difference? 

I’m have confidence in Britain post Brexit, you think differently and we can only prosper by staying in. Time will prove either of us correct. 

 

[SirBalon]

34 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I thought you were Spanish by birth and lived here a number of years, in which case I apologise it wasn’t meant as a “fuck off back home”, it was a challenge to your constant assertions we’re doomed. 

The question is pertinent though, you speak fluent Spanish, why if you’re so convinced we’re heading for oblivion in April aren’t you looking to move beforehand? I would be if I was in your shoes and I thought the UK was fucked. 

Also what “facts” there’s no facts, there’s projections but no facts because we’ve not left yet. What is the point of me arguing projections with you? It’s pretty much pointless arguing in this thread anyway.  Most of the projections pre & post Brexit about the U.K. economy have been wrong, why should some spurious article that claims “we’re going to be fucked in 5 years” make any difference? 

I’m have confidence in Britain post Brexit, you think differently and we can only prosper by staying in. Time will prove either of us correct. 

 

There are facts mate, there are facts as to what the status quo brings us here in the UK and what we give up by leaving. There are absolutely no benefits whatsoever on leaving the European Union apart from controlling our borders under the agreement reached by Theresa May which was forced upon her as a weapon by the electorate.

Had the predominate consensus been simply leaving the European Union in the search for constructing our own future in conjunction with the EU and the WTO (aside from all the other factors) it would’ve been a different story with a whole different outcome where an agreement would’ve been concerned. We would’ve been able to capture a Norway style agreement but Norway themselves more or less told us to F-Off in no uncertain terms yesterday when they quoted the veto privileges and how it would affect them negatively by comparison with other members that function in the same manner as they do within the continent. But also remember that they have freedom of movement as an accepted part of the policy... They also stated that the rules and regulations employed by the EU are that which protects their citizens with quality and control.

To summarise... We HAD/HAVE (presently) the same system Norway enjoy only that with more privileges than them because while we have a same system as them without prescribing to schengen  or the Euro, we were/are in there with the power to participate in the creation of regulations with the singular power to veto anything we don’t see in the benefit of our own interests.

Nobody anywhere in Europe or the EU has EVER gotten involved in the implementation of our own rules and regulations aside from workers rights coupled with taxing regulations (the taxing part is more complexed) which benefit the working classes. 

Trust me... I stand to lose NOTHING with the departure of the UK from the EU personally. I am self sustainable financially and have dual nationality with two passports (UK by birth and Spanish by form of parental origin)... I can show my British passport (as can my son who has tri-nationality) at British borders/customs and show my Spanish passort at any EU member state country without having to apply for a visiting VISA or a right to work anywhere in Europe.

Why limit yourself when you have it all?

The EU isn’t perfect by a long means and I am no pro-EU supporter by a long stretch, but I have learned that my vote was incorrect because I was fed rubbish and that the EU offers me, those that live where I was born, my friends and family the best deal out there. 

[Machado]

On 06/12/2018 at 18:29, The Artful Dodger said:

Being a bit unfair there. I disagree with nearly all his positions you mention there but he's not a brainless xenophobe. His comments about the EU aren't motivated by a dislike of Germany but just common sense, Germany is simply the most powerful European country and will ultimately play the biggest role in the economics of it. The EU is a far better way of managing this that it's previous military forms. Speaking this fact infuriates some little Englanders who see Britain as a still powerful nation and frame everything through the World War prism, but ultimately it's not necessarily a bad thing and doesn't bother me particularly.

One can argue that Germany has been the opinion leader in the EU, but the formal power of Germany as well as of other big countries in the EU, is actually disproportionally low.

The EU has a population of around 505 million, contributions of around €17 billion and there are 751 seats in the European Parliament. Germany has a population of 81 million (~16%), pays contributions of €26 billion (~22%), but has only 96 seats (~13%). So Germany's means of influencing EU politics are actually smaller than any "share" Germany would expect to have in the EU.

One thing Germany does however, and this is the crux of it, is actively engaging in EU politics and as usual, people who do things make an impact . The notion of Germany being disproportionally or especially powerful mostly comes from the lack of activity shown by other countries in EU politics. It's up to them to change that.

Now now... depending on your personal views this can be regarded as leadership or domination - as it's usually advertised by far right politicians and particularly imperialism lovers.

So again, the problem is not that Germany has a lot of power, it is that other large EU countries failed to take action or to show leadership. This is very true for the deadbeat UK who just chose to leave, and to lesser extent France.

[God is Haaland]

2 hours ago, Machado said:

The notion of Germany being disproportionally or especially powerful mostly comes from the lack of activity shown by other countries in EU politics. It's up to them to change that.

N-n-no dude, throw your toys out of the pram and call us "the 4th Reich". The EU is going to implode.

Edited December 11, 2018 by BartraPique1932

[Honey Honey]

Artful dodger was talking about German politics role in economics not the decision making process of minor market rules and regs. 

The concept of German financial dominance and control is primarily a left wing idea centred around the arguments and observations of left wing economists. Most right wing city economists support the present flavour of Germany's politics. Indeed George Osbourne used to love it. The financial reich is a term from left wing circles.  

[Machado]

So it's unfortunate that people like Hitchens entertain the notion of a fourth Reich, which he clearly does, when Germany doesn't rule the EU alone and it's only power derives from it's economy.

Hitchens seems to project his own nationalism onto the Germans and adopts the Nazi POV as if there is something in the genes of the Germans that makes their sole purpose to rule Europe and conquer to the East. After all, every bit of history we need to know about Germany are the 12 years of the Third Reich.

 

 

[The Artful Dodger]

8 hours ago, Machado said:

So it's unfortunate that people like Hitchens entertain the notion of a fourth Reich, which he clearly does, when Germany doesn't rule the EU alone and it's only power derives from it's economy.

Hitchens seems to project his own nationalism onto the Germans and adopts the Nazi POV as if there is something in the genes of the Germans that makes their sole purpose to rule Europe and conquer to the East. After all, every bit of history we need to know about Germany are the 12 years of the Third Reich. 

 

 

I don't see that at all, I think Hitchens has an overly romanticised position of Britain's former position in the world but he's in no way comparing modern Germany to its Nazi past, he goes to great lengths to criticise Britain for involving itself in WW1 and laments the hostility to Germany. Germany quite simply IS the most powerful nation on the continent, this will always be the case. The EU is way of making this fact into a workable relationship, I think using the word 'German empire' is a little inflammatory but the point he's trying to make is not far from the truth.

[The Artful Dodger]

May confidence vote triggered. Here we go...

[Fairy In Boots]

It’s because despite all these remainers creaming over bs polls in which they’ve put a 3rd option to split the leave vote so remain looks popular again, the Tory’s know from their consistents that if May takes them & this deal to a general election they will be decimated. The fucking stubborn cunt won’t go though. 

At least she has a new answer to what’s the worst thing you’ve done “botched Brexit, decimating the Tory party and handing the keys to no 10 to an anti Semitic terrorist sympathising Marxist, who will then decimate the country” is better than running through a corn field.