UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Guest]

On 30/11/2019 at 07:26, LFCMike said:

He's not perfect, no politician ever will be. What I can't get my head around is we have a straight choice between him and Johnson and people from working class backgrounds will go for Johnson.

People are heavily influenced by the media there's no doubt about that

Well there are people from working class backgrounds who do vote conservative. I don't personally think it's fair to assume they are just uneducated and don't know what they are voting for etc. (Not saying you are saying that)

Weren't taxes very high under old labour? Some are worried that will happen I think

[Michael]

On 30/11/2019 at 10:18, DeadLinesman said:

He thinks it’s outrageous that you can read a tweet calling his son a liar on air, but is quite happy to call the public uneducated. Why couldn’t he have died in the jungle from aids a few years back.

You can tell that BOJO's father is the type of person who probably looks down on the working class. It seems like insulting others for no good reason, is the norm amongst people of his ilk.

[Inverted]

I mean between Rees Mogg's Grenfell comments, Johnson's prior writings, and his dads statements, it only illustrates what is painfully obvious. The Tories look at the vast majority of the country as helpless, easily-led cattle.

And election results down south tend to prove them right. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Inverted

[RandoEFC+]

Labour creeping up in the polls, just not enough. Can Corbyn take enough of a chunk out of Johnson in Friday's debate? Wouldn't bet on it. He has the ammo though if he's willing to.

Most experts seem to reckon that a 6-7% deficit for Labour would be enough to force a hung parliament. Most polls still have them around 10% behind. One can only hope the surge in under 25 voter registrations take the polls by surprise. It's a slim hope, but still a hope.

[RandoEFC+]

By the way, what a mess this campaign has been for the Lib Dems. I can't quite put my finger on what's so off putting about Swinson but whoever decided to base their campaign so heavily around her as a personality has grossly misjudged things. Maybe I'm being harsh and this would have happened to them anyway, but there's genuinely talk about her losing her seat.

[Harry]

Saw this graph doing the rounds on Twitter which was mind-blowing but immediately made me think of this fake Churchill quote.

 

 

[LFCMike]

7 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Labour creeping up in the polls, just not enough. Can Corbyn take enough of a chunk out of Johnson in Friday's debate? Wouldn't bet on it. He has the ammo though if he's willing to.

Most experts seem to reckon that a 6-7% deficit for Labour would be enough to force a hung parliament. Most polls still have them around 10% behind. One can only hope the surge in under 25 voter registrations take the polls by surprise. It's a slim hope, but still a hope.

The polls are a load of shite generally aren't they? Off the top of my head, certainly in the last couple of elections and the referendum. Designed to influence the voters more than anything

[Fairy In Boots]

6 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

The polls are a load of shite generally aren't they? Off the top of my head, certainly in the last couple of elections and the referendum. Designed to influence the voters more than anything

Think they’re accurate this time. 

2 hours ago, Harry said:

Saw this graph doing the rounds on Twitter which was mind-blowing but immediately made me think of this fake Churchill quote.

 

 

Certainly in our society (tv, radio etc) and higher education system aimed at the 20-30 demographic there’s a championing of socialist policies and politics. As you get older and gain experience in the real world you see it for the shite it is. 

[The Artful Dodger]

Our universities are now rapacious, companies designed to make as much profit as possible, there is no pushing of 'socialist policies', only someone completely ignorant of higher education could suggest such a thing.

[RandoEFC+]

The coverage from certain media outlets is becoming absolutely embarrassing. Corbyn saying that he doesn't watch the Queen's Speech making front page news on multiple newspapers who refuse to mention the fact that it's because he spends his time with homeless people or at food banks instead.  It's a good job the current prime-minister has never shown such flagrant disrespect towards the Queen or royal family in recent history in any way, isn't it .

You'd hope at some point that the smear campaign becomes so obvious that people start to see through it as being absolutely ridiculous but I fear that this has become a pipe dream.

One can only hope that once more Tory cuts decimate the education system even further, that future generations grow up to be too stupid to notice the puppet strings attached to their conscience.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

The coverage from certain media outlets is becoming absolutely embarrassing. Corbyn saying that he doesn't watch the Queen's Speech making front page news on multiple newspapers who refuse to mention the fact that it's because he spends his time with homeless people or at food banks instead.  It's a good job the current prime-minister has never shown such flagrant disrespect towards the Queen or royal family in recent history in any way, isn't it .

You'd hope at some point that the smear campaign becomes so obvious that people start to see through it as being absolutely ridiculous but I fear that this has become a pipe dream.

One can only hope that once more Tory cuts decimate the education system even further, that future generations grow up to be too stupid to notice the puppet strings attached to their conscience.

It's incredible but not in the least bit surprising, sadly. 

[Inverted]

People have been quick to blame new technologies and social media for fake news and the downturn in political discourse.

But if the media class had even a modicum of competence or human decency they easily could have overcome it. As it turns out they're self-content, arrogant charlatans, and their conduct has led us directly into the current political hellscape we're in. 

The traditional media in this country can not die quickly enough. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Inverted said:

People have been quick to blame new technologies and social media for fake news and the downturn in political discourse.

But if the media class had even a modicum of competence or human decency they easily could have overcome it. As it turns out they're self-content, arrogant charlatans, and their conduct has led us directly into the current political hellscape we're in. 

The traditional media in this country can not die quickly enough. 

I don't know if traditional media should die off - the media's double standards in reporting in politics over the last few decades is obviously extremely troubling because it's been massively influential in the shitshow we're in today. But at the same time, a lot of "independent" political journalism isn't rooted in the ideas of journalistic integrity in trying to give people political news - a lot of it is people independent of the mainstream media trying to mislead the public even further and designed to push people to more extreme viewpoints.

I do think the internet and social media play a massive part in how the political culture of the western world is being molded. I think what the internet has done is pretty similar to what happened when the printing press was developed: the printing press made it easier than ever for people to spread and receive information. When we think of the renaissance we typically think of the massive strides forward Europe made in artistic and scientific pursuits - we often don't think about how it was a time of notable social struggle and political upheaval.

Now we're not coming out of the plague, like the people alive at the time of the renaissance. But we are in a time where a great deal of people feel utterly left behind by the situation their governments have left them in. So people aren't anywhere near as desperate as the dark ages (which is a good thing), but they're still feeling desperate. We're also in a time where we've got information flowing more freely than ever before. Just like with the printing press, that's mostly a good thing for society. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's own issues that can be magnified by simple human nature.

I think people have always had issues with critical thinking and being able to discern reality from bullshit - otherwise conmen wouldn't be a thing and politicians would be held more accountable for their brazen lying. So while I think people nowadays are generally aware of more factually accurate things than people at the beginning of the renaissance (as they fucking should, considering centuries have passed)… imo people are just as stupid as they've ever been. Just like how people have used exploiting "fear of the other" isn't new.

IMO calling for killing off our press is a bit extreme, but I don't know how you'd really regulate the media properly without it stifling the concept of a free press. Any government oversight of privately owned media inherently makes that media less a part of a "free press" - but perhaps rules regarding how many media entites one person/one corporate group can hold would be a start? It's a tricky issue, but it's something that needs to be addressed. Similarly, social media providers have demonstrated they're not to be trusted at "self-regulation" and the effectiveness of the internet at being a tool for the spread of malicious bullshit for political purposes is also something that needs to be addressed. But again, it's tricky to do that while maintaining all of the positive benefits the free flow of ideas and information on the internet provide.

That's not to shit on all independent journalism out there either - there are people out there trying to raise journalistic standards considering how badly traditional media has let those standards drop. But there's also plenty of people out there calling themselves "journalists" taking from news stories actual journalists wrote and then throwing heavy doses of their own opinion in it trying to mislead. And even worse are the people who make shit up. I just think traditional media and this new era of online media have their own issues that are all very complicated... and I'm fairly sure the extreme view that traditional media must die, if it ever did come to fruition, would be one of those cases of the grass not always being greener on the other side.

[6666]

Vote for the Tories who don't care about people, vote for the Lib Dems who have a Tory in charge, vote for the Brexit party who are full of disaster bastards or vote for Labour who have a leader who doesn't watch the Queen's speech.

Difficult choice. 

[Inverted]

32 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't know if traditional media should die off - the media's double standards in reporting in politics over the last few decades is obviously extremely troubling because it's been massively influential in the shitshow we're in today. But at the same time, a lot of "independent" political journalism isn't rooted in the ideas of journalistic integrity in trying to give people political news - a lot of it is people independent of the mainstream media trying to mislead the public even further and designed to push people to more extreme viewpoints.

I do think the internet and social media play a massive part in how the political culture of the western world is being molded. I think what the internet has done is pretty similar to what happened when the printing press was developed: the printing press made it easier than ever for people to spread and receive information. When we think of the renaissance we typically think of the massive strides forward Europe made in artistic and scientific pursuits - we often don't think about how it was a time of notable social struggle and political upheaval.

Now we're not coming out of the plague, like the people alive at the time of the renaissance. But we are in a time where a great deal of people feel utterly left behind by the situation their governments have left them in. So people aren't anywhere near as desperate as the dark ages (which is a good thing), but they're still feeling desperate. We're also in a time where we've got information flowing more freely than ever before. Just like with the printing press, that's mostly a good thing for society. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's own issues that can be magnified by simple human nature.

I think people have always had issues with critical thinking and being able to discern reality from bullshit - otherwise conmen wouldn't be a thing and politicians would be held more accountable for their brazen lying. So while I think people nowadays are generally aware of more factually accurate things than people at the beginning of the renaissance (as they fucking should, considering centuries have passed)… imo people are just as stupid as they've ever been. Just like how people have used exploiting "fear of the other" isn't new.

IMO calling for killing off our press is a bit extreme, but I don't know how you'd really regulate the media properly without it stifling the concept of a free press. Any government oversight of privately owned media inherently makes that media less a part of a "free press" - but perhaps rules regarding how many media entites one person/one corporate group can hold would be a start? It's a tricky issue, but it's something that needs to be addressed. Similarly, social media providers have demonstrated they're not to be trusted at "self-regulation" and the effectiveness of the internet at being a tool for the spread of malicious bullshit for political purposes is also something that needs to be addressed. But again, it's tricky to do that while maintaining all of the positive benefits the free flow of ideas and information on the internet provide.

That's not to shit on all independent journalism out there either - there are people out there trying to raise journalistic standards considering how badly traditional media has let those standards drop. But there's also plenty of people out there calling themselves "journalists" taking from news stories actual journalists wrote and then throwing heavy doses of their own opinion in it trying to mislead. And even worse are the people who make shit up. I just think traditional media and this new era of online media have their own issues that are all very complicated... and I'm fairly sure the extreme view that traditional media must die, if it ever did come to fruition, would be one of those cases of the grass not always being greener on the other side.

I understand your concerns, but in either case the digital sphere is going to be a stramash of different independent platforms spreading partisan messages in a head-to-head. 

That's going to be the case whether the traditional media exists or not. 

What the traditional media does is that it sort of acts as a referee in the contest between these hyper-partisan messages. But it's not a fair referee - it's systematically biased in favour of the right, and in bits and pieces it normalises and lends credibility to even it's extreme fringes. By using its enormous power of reputation and "normality" it can shape public thought dramatically. It sets a middle-ground, and it sets it as far to the right as possible. 

I would much rather have a chaotic free-for-all with no widely-accepted points of reference. Then, at least the information war would be somewhat fair. The fact that there are notions of credibility and impartiality still out there only works to the favour of the establishment. 

Traditional media has already rendered notions of impartiality, objectivity and public service entirely hollow - it's the lingering fantasy of those ideals that does so much harm. 

[RandoEFC+]

It's the BBC who have disappointed me really. I cant remember the last time I went on their News page without seeing something about anti-semitism somewhere in the headlines. Any racism is terrible, but on the Conservative side the concerns surround the actual prime minister's words over a number of decades and come as part of a wider package of bigotry rather than the problem lower down the party just being dealt with insufficiently.

[Inverted]

11 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

It's the BBC who have disappointed me really. I cant remember the last time I went on their News page without seeing something about anti-semitism somewhere in the headlines. Any racism is terrible, but on the Conservative side the concerns surround the actual prime minister's words over a number of decades and come as part of a wider package of bigotry rather than the problem lower down the party just being dealt with insufficiently.

Corbyn has to grovel about anti-semitism - has any Tory ever been asked to apologise for the dozens of black Britons deported or even killed by the Windrush scandal? 

The entire saga is just shameless politicking and blatant white supremacism in action, legitimised by complacent, sneering media "authority figures" at every step. 

[RandoEFC+]

Ouch. That's one marginal seat lost for the Tories (you'd hope at least, nothing surprises me these days).

[Devil-Dick Willie]

 

[RandoEFC+]

We can only dream of a progressive alliance like this in the UK. I've seen or heard a lot of people suggesting that they'd vote for a hung parliament if there was an option. We would be so much better off with proportional representation instead of first past the post. It would require a huge overhaul logistically but can you imagine a parliament where Johnson, Corbyn, Swinson and the better-represented minor parties were forced to find compromise and implement policies and laws that are agreed upon by the majority of MPs and therefore always voted for by more than half of the electorate? It's almost unthinkable as the government vs opposition format is so entrenched in our politics, but it would be nice to think that the non-parliamentary majority MPs could actually play some role in the House of Commons beyond voting against anything the government tries to do because they're the opposition.

[Pyfish+]

Boris has been in Grimsby today trying to win over people. It's one of those seats that they think they can win from Labour. I'm so annoyed I live in Leeds as I cannot stand the Tory candidate for Grimsby - she used to be my boss and loved zero hour contracts 

[LFCMike]

https://mobile.twitter.com/joepike/status/1204018593656180736?

[Stan]

Laura Kuenssberg had an absolute mare earlier. Embarrassing from her. We all know she's a Tory but today was a blatant a show of it as ever.

Hancock visits Leeds hospital where the poor 4-year old boy suffering from pneumonia is sleeping on coats in a hospital (the picture in question on the phone in @LFCMike's comment).

Walks out, on the phone, to protests and swiftly goes in to his car. 

As the protestors shout, as they are well within their rights to do, one of them points towards the car and a guy walks in to the protestor's arm.

Before the video surfaced, Kuenssberg tweeted that things had 'turned nasty' and that there were 'punches thrown' by a labour activist on to Hancock's adviser. Shambolic 'journalism' and she should know better to tweet stuff without knowing the full facts.

[RandoEFC+]

14 minutes ago, Stan said:

Laura Kuenssberg had an absolute mare earlier. Embarrassing from her. We all know she's a Tory but today was a blatant a show of it as ever.

Hancock visits Leeds hospital where the poor 4-year old boy suffering from pneumonia is sleeping on coats in a hospital (the picture in question on the phone in @LFCMike's comment).

Walks out, on the phone, to protests and swiftly goes in to his car. 

As the protestors shout, as they are well within their rights to do, one of them points towards the car and a guy walks in to the protestor's arm.

Before the video surfaced, Kuenssberg tweeted that things had 'turned nasty' and that there were 'punches thrown' by a labour activist on to Hancock's adviser. Shambolic 'journalism' and she should know better to tweet stuff without knowing the full facts.

She wasn't the only one who tweeted it. And guess where the misinformation came from?

This the latest faux pas, on top of the 88% of Facebook adverts that they've been pushing being inaccurate according to independent Fact Checkers.

What we've laughed nervously at across the Atlantic for the past 5 years has become an absolute blueprint for our own country.

Hope the message about tactical voting gets spread wide enough.

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

She wasn't the only one who tweeted it. And guess where the misinformation came from?

This the latest faux pas, on top of the 88% of Facebook adverts that they've been pushing being inaccurate according to independent Fact Checkers.

What we've laughed nervously at across the Atlantic for the past 5 years has become an absolute blueprint for our own country.

Hope the message about tactical voting gets spread wide enough.

It's embarrassing what politics has become like in this country. Blaming social media is far too easy. These people have lost their morals. Their ethcis and their values.