SirBalon Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 Who's was the bigger feat taking everything into consideration? Klopp's was surely more expected. Debate away...
Harry Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, SirBalon said: Who's was the bigger feat taking everything into consideration? Klopp's was surely more expected. Debate away... I'm going with Klopp but I'm choosing to interpret your question being about what the managers delivered and did for the clubs overall rather than just which ones cup win is better. So for me what Klopp has done eclipses what Benitez achieved. There is greater competition now in the league. Even qualifying for the Champions league is tough these days. Bottom line is I've loved the ride more with Klopp.
SirBalon Posted June 2, 2019 Author Posted June 2, 2019 55 minutes ago, Harry said: I'm going with Klopp but I'm choosing to interpret your question being about what the managers delivered and did for the clubs overall rather than just which ones cup win is better. So for me what Klopp has done eclipses what Benitez achieved. There is greater competition now in the league. Even qualifying for the Champions league is tough these days. Bottom line is I've loved the ride more with Klopp. Do you think Benítez' squad was much poorer than Klopp's in the achievement? For me Klopp has definitely proven to be able to deliver a project without a shadow of a doubt and that for me (in this sense) puts Klopp on a par with Guardiola.
Harry Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 24 minutes ago, SirBalon said: Do you think Benítez' squad was much poorer than Klopp's in the achievement? For me Klopp has definitely proven to be able to deliver a project without a shadow of a doubt and that for me (in this sense) puts Klopp on a par with Guardiola. Without question Rafas squad was massively inferior, and got the win against a much better side. That campaign was the more magical and against the odds in that sense. This campaign we were among the favorites throughout and laboured a bit through the group stage, but we got done big wins and did it whilst sustaining a massive title challenge as compared with missing top 4 back then. The Istanbul final victory will never be eclipsed for me but nor will this year's Barcelona second leg.
Cicero Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 Surely 2005? Is this even worth debate? That Liverpool side was massively inferior and was up against arguably one of the strongest Milan sides ever.
Spike Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 Klopp actually made a great team and won with it. Benitez got lucky.
Danny Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 Depends how you look at it Klopp easily the better manager, Benitez won it with a poorer side
Subscriber CaaC (John)+ Posted June 2, 2019 Subscriber Posted June 2, 2019 Time will tell if Klopp stays, at the moment for me it's Raffa he has good pedigree and I do have a soft spot for him and if Ashley does sell and get some owners in that will spend the dosh I reckon Raffa could get Newcastle on top of the pile. Raffa Klopp
MUFC Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 Klopp deserved it as they were the best side in the competition, Rafas side were one of the worse to ever win it.
Dr. Gonzo Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 Klopp’s built the best LFC side in my life. Rafa took a shite squad in his first year and beat one of the best teams around. And our cup run that year was ridiculous. That Juve fixture was electric. Raping Barca at home might beat that, but I genuinely think we were better than every side we faced in the knockouts this year. In 2005 that wasn’t always the case, against Juve or Milan.
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted June 2, 2019 Subscriber Posted June 2, 2019 Klopp had a more difficult starting point and stiffer competition in my opinion.
MUFC Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Klopp’s built the best LFC side in my life. Rafa took a shite squad in his first year and beat one of the best teams around. And our cup run that year was ridiculous. That Juve fixture was electric. Raping Barca at home might beat that, but I genuinely think we were better than every side we faced in the knockouts this year. In 2005 that wasn’t always the case, against Juve or Milan. Klopp has built the best side with good balance, and good to watch. But for pure football, and being pleasing on the eye. I foubd the side Rodgers had which challenged for the title, the best to watch. I actually loved watching them.
Azeem Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 Are we talking about just the CL campaign of each manager or the whole season in which they won the title ?
Subscriber CaaC (John)+ Posted June 2, 2019 Subscriber Posted June 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Azeem said: Are we talking about just the CL campaign of each manager or the whole season in which they won the title ? Aye, I think I answered the question as who was the best manager out of Raffa or Klopp and that was Raffa straight away but if the question was what was the best UEFA Cup won by Raffa in 2005 or Klopp winning yesterday it's got to be Raffa and 2005 against Milan and as @Cicero said that Milan side was strong with players like Cafu, Stam, Nesta, Maldini, Pirlo, Kaká to name a few.
Smiley Culture Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 I’m going for Klopp, if it’s what Champions League win was more impressive. Liverpool won the Champions League last night after spending the year on City’s (probably the best side we’ve seen in the Premier League possibly ever) coat tails, whereas they finished 37 points behind the winners of the 04/05 Premier League, so it was a case of all their eggs in one basket.
Azeem Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 33 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said: I’m going for Klopp, if it’s what Champions League win was more impressive. Liverpool won the Champions League last night after spending the year on City’s (probably the best side we’ve seen in the Premier League possibly ever) coat tails, whereas they finished 37 points behind the winners of the 04/05 Premier League, so it was a case of all their eggs in one basket. Yep if its about the whole season than going toe to toe with this City team till the last day is a feat of its own.
Honey Honey Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 I think some may be blurring Klopp's team being impressive with Klopp's team winning the Champions League being impressive. A front three of Milan Baros, Harry Kewell and Luis Garcia won the Champions League ffs. That has to be a bigger feat. What next, Leicester's league win about the 14th biggest feat of premier league seasons
SirBalon Posted June 2, 2019 Author Posted June 2, 2019 This is what I love about this country when it comes to debating football. The domestic season is all important and counts a tremendous amount. I take Spain into context here because of how much I personally know about that championship and obviously I was born here in the UK so I am native to everything English where football is concerned. Once upon a time it was the same in Spain but since about 15 years ago the Champions League/European Cup has taken an unnatural precedent in proceedings and a cloudy judgment on what's really great is confusing. Right now a Spanish football fan that hasn't looked outside his borders (someone insular) would find some of these comments very odd indeed. What Klopp has created (taking aside the fact he's implemented his particular style on a foreign club and that's worth a trophy in itself) as a wholesome and all expansive competitive football machine is what puts him above Benítez even if Rafa won the Champions League against a much more superior side and his own team which was very slightly above mediocre. Let's not forget Klopp went through a period where he was being questioned and it all looked pear shaped, but the club kept faith in him and now they have a strange homebrewed breed of football that isn't easy to defeat at all.
Smiley Culture Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, Harvsky said: I think some may be blurring Klopp's team being impressive with Klopp's team winning the Champions League being impressive. A front three of Milan Baros, Harry Kewell and Luis Garcia won the Champions League ffs. That has to be a bigger feat. What next, Leicester's league win about the 14th biggest feat of premier league seasons Competing on two fronts how they have this year is a bigger achievement, IMO, than a one-off game in a largely forgettable season. If we’re talking what was the better Champions League Final win alone, I can’t imagine Liverpool have played that poorly in a European Final and won before.
Azeem Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 If this thread is about just the Champions League title of each manger and which one is a bigger feat than the poll options should be the titles itself not the managers. Istanbul 2005 Madrid 2019 Surely Istanbul 2005 wins in that case
Inverted Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 Football is very different between now and then. In those days, matches between elite sides were very often intensely cagey and the best managers were the ones who focused on making very specific game plans for different matches, and nullifying the opposition. Benitez is a master at that kind of management, and him and Mourinho were major figures in pushing football in that direction. 15 years on, and football is much faster and more fluid. It's extremely hard to kill a game and play for a clean sheet, and trying to do so is basically suicidal. Winning knockout ties is much more dependent on building momentum and having the confidence to play through and react to the unpredictable swings of ties these days, which requires more continuity in shape and system over several months. Tactical changes are generally more subtle now - like adjusting the position of your wingers in defence, moving your line a bit up or down, and one or two personnel changes. It rarely pays to make massive changes on the eve of a knockout tie anymore. Obviously, Klopp is almost the perfect manager for this style of management, and he's played a large part in making football develop in this way. I think it's too hard to compare the two. Benitez' win is the much bigger underdog story, but Klopp has done it whilst maintaining amazing form in the league which is impressive in another way. I don't think Klopp could have done what Benitez did, and Benitez couldn't do what Klopp has done.
SirBalon Posted June 2, 2019 Author Posted June 2, 2019 37 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said: Competing on two fronts how they have this year is a bigger achievement, IMO, than a one-off game in a largely forgettable season. If we’re talking what was the better Champions League Final win alone, I can’t imagine Liverpool have played that poorly in a European Final and won before. It's not really a one off game for Klopp in the Champions League though mate, is it. Liverpool didn't get a bye to the final and neither did Benítez.
Smiley Culture Posted June 2, 2019 Posted June 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, SirBalon said: It's not really a one off game for Klopp in the Champions League though mate, is it. Liverpool didn't get a bye to the final and neither did Benítez. I never said it was a one-off game for Klopp, though. Klopp led a Liverpool side through to the Final, beating Barcelona (won their league), Bayern Munich (won their league) and Porto on their way, while getting to 97 points in the Premier League, a total that would win the league more years than not, and keeping the title race going to the final day. Benitez’s side struggled through a group stage, beat Leverkusen, Juventus and Chelsea, while finishing 37 points behind the league winners in 04-05. To compete in the manner they have this season is a bigger feat than never being in a title race and putting all their eggs in one basket.
SirBalon Posted June 2, 2019 Author Posted June 2, 2019 I agree but if this is the case then we can criticise quite a number of Champions League winners when they've had mediocre to pretty shambolic domestic seasons. I would be swayed to go for Klopp simply because he has implemented a style, a personal philosophy which is a hallmark of his game as a coach. Benítez like Mourinho don't and never have had that because it was based on setting up sides to be speculative. Klopp imposes his football on the opponent and that opponent in most cases has to deal with that by being speculative themselves if they don't believe they're good enough. But then again Benítez' Liverpool won the European Cup against the odds, many odds. It's not that easy because there is an argument to be had for both.
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