Coronavirus (COVID-19) Outbreak

[Waylander]

Got a new pc otherwise would give a screen shot, yet public health Scotland has more vaccinated dying that un-vaccinated.

However due to different population sizes of each group they state statistically that it is safer to be vaccinated yet that must still be pretty awkward to acknowledge that more vaccinated are currently dying than un-vaccinated.

Table 20 , slide 49

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/10091/21-11-10-covid19-publication_report.pdf

Public Health England had a similar page yet removed it within 36 hours last time I looked again deaths of vaccinated were higher. 

 

[Stan]

6 hours ago, Waylander said:

Got a new pc otherwise would give a screen shot, yet public health Scotland has more vaccinated dying that un-vaccinated.

However due to different population sizes of each group they state statistically that it is safer to be vaccinated yet that must still be pretty awkward to acknowledge that more vaccinated are currently dying than un-vaccinated.

Table 20 , slide 49

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/10091/21-11-10-covid19-publication_report.pdf

Public Health England had a similar page yet removed it within 36 hours last time I looked again deaths of vaccinated were higher. 

 

Took the screenshot for you. 

Double-dose and the risk of death is lower compared to unvaccinated or 1 dose... 

[Harry]

18 hours ago, Happy Blue said:

These scientific experts are saying something different?   

 

France advises against Moderna for under-30s over rare heart risk

French health authorities advised against use of the Moderna COVID jab for people under 30 late yesterday, after a nation-wide study confirmed a risk of cardiac inflammation associated with mRNA vaccines.

The study from Epi-Phare, an independent medicines safety research group that works closely with the French government, confirmed previous findings

It looked at all people in France aged 12 to 50 who were hospitalized for myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) or pericarditis (inflammation of the tissue surrounding the heart) between May 15 and August 31 of this year.

Results showed that vaccines from both Pfizer and Moderna increase the risk of these illnesses within seven days of vaccination.

The risk, is higher in men under 30 years old and particularly after a second dose of the Moderna vaccine, which the study found

You know people in car accidents wearing seatbelts get big imprints on their chest and bruising from the belt, and can even get cracked ribs.

[Happy Blue]

17 minutes ago, Harry said:

You know people in car accidents wearing seatbelts get big imprints on their chest and bruising from the belt, and can even get cracked ribs.

Sometimes. i've walked away from a serious car crash with just a few scratches from the glass when some old guy drove into the side of me but Covid has a 99.99% survival rate for the vast majority of the population, why even get in the car when you don't need to make that journey?  chances of dying with covid are very slim, sacked 100k+ doctors and 60k+ careworkers will result in more deaths from the 10 more serious illness that are killing more people daily right now   ...why are they going crazy trying to force people to vaccinate?? kids definitely  don't need this

Edited November 17, 2021 by Happy Blue

[Stan]

@Happy Blue given that you drive, and have been involved in a car accident before, why do you keep getting in cars? If there's a risk of getting in that car again, surely you could die? 

Also, ever been on a plane? There's been so many plane crashes over the years. Do you not trust planes?

Or do you have faith and trust in the mechanics and experts and skilled workers who have made such technological beasts to give you the safe service that you need?

[Happy Blue]

30 minutes ago, Stan said:

@Happy Blue given that you drive, and have been involved in a car accident before, why do you keep getting in cars? If there's a risk of getting in that car again, surely you could die? 

Also, ever been on a plane? There's been so many plane crashes over the years. Do you not trust planes?

Or do you have faith and trust in the mechanics and experts and skilled workers who have made such technological beasts to give you the safe service that you need?

I have no fear of death, i've done far far more dangerous stuff than driving.  the answer to your question is we need to drive to get around and i've jumped out of perfectly good planes & helicopters into jungles and deserts  ..no i don't trust them, mechanical things breakdown daily, just a flock of birds can take a plane down

Edited November 17, 2021 by Happy Blue

[Happy Blue]

UK Vaccine Death Totals

Deaths from Pfizer vaccine: 456
Deaths from the Oxford Astra Zeneca: 983 and others 31
Total of: 701 now 847, now 1,470 official UK vaccine deaths.-see below
The UK Column website are now tracking this at https://yellowcard.ukcolumn.org/yellow-card-reports

This is an underestimate because many of the reactions and deaths do NOT get reported to this system. See here for the USA system which suggests less than 1% of vaccine adverse reactions are reported.

European Vaccine Death Totals

Confirmed Vaccine Deaths 23,252 Injuries: 2.1 Million See here here

USA Vaccine Death Totals

CDC Confirmed Vaccine Deaths now running at 45,000+

Israeli Vaccine Death Totals

Confirmed Vaccine Deaths 309 estimated total: 1000 to 1100 See here

Australian Vaccine Adverse Effects and Death

Total Vaccine Deaths 973 reported in this Australian database of Adverse Events pdf here

Edited November 17, 2021 by Happy Blue

[Harry]

48 minutes ago, Happy Blue said:

Sometimes. i've walked away from a serious car crash with just a few scratches from the glass when some old guy drove into the side of me but Covid has a 99.99% survival rate for the vast majority of the population, why even get in the car when you don't need to make that journey?  chances of dying with covid are very slim, sacked 100k+ doctors and 60k+ careworkers will result in more deaths from the 10 more serious illness that are killing more people daily right now   ...why are they going crazy trying to force people to vaccinate?? kids definitely  don't need this

I agree with you that vaccination of kids isn't a big issue, but at the end of the day we are talking about a virus that killed 6 times more people than a bad flu season despite an absolute fuck ton of lockdowns preventing things from getting worse. 

[Happy Blue]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

I agree with you that vaccination of kids isn't a big issue, but at the end of the day we are talking about a virus that killed 6 times more people than a bad flu season despite an absolute fuck ton of lockdowns preventing things from getting worse. 

It is killing people but the numbers have been inflated. if you test positive for covid and die within a 28 day period your cause of death is recorded as covid even if you was dying of cancer or something else and covid was just like the final nail in the coffin so to speak. i don't know what the agenda is with driving the numbers up and wouldn't like to speculate here  ...my mum died in march 2020 of pneumonia and her death certificate says covid, whats that all about? she never even had covid

[Stan]

@Happy Blue those stats are from SUSPECTED adverse reactions from the vaccine.

Also, looking at the below, the chances of dying from the vaccine are incredibly low - you love to spout the '99.99% survival rate from COVID' (which isn't the case anyway - it's approx 98%).

But you appear to have overlooked the fact that there's only a 1.37% of dying from the Astra-Zeneca vaccine according to your own source. And it only slightly increases with the Pfizer vaccine (2.92%)

[Happy Blue]

28 minutes ago, Stan said:

@Happy Blue those stats are from SUSPECTED adverse reactions from the vaccine.

Also, looking at the below, the chances of dying from the vaccine are incredibly low - you love to spout the '99.99% survival rate from COVID' (which isn't the case anyway - it's approx 98%).

But you appear to have overlooked the fact that there's only a 1.37% of dying from the Astra-Zeneca vaccine according to your own source. And it only slightly increases with the Pfizer vaccine (2.92%)

So at 2.92% the vaccine is more dangerous than covid even with the inflated covid death figures? 

[Happy Blue]

1 minute ago, Tommy said:

Facts and figures you don't like is trolling? ..go back to your safe space 

[Stan]

27 minutes ago, Happy Blue said:

So at 2.92% the vaccine is more dangerous than covid even with the inflated covid death figures? 

very marginally. The point is, it's still a very, very, very slim chance of dying from the vaccine but you continuously make out like the vaccine is the worst thing to have ever happened in the world and people should avoid it like the plague. 

[nudge+]

Novavax finally submitted for approval in the EU, could be a very good option for those who are hesitant about the new technologies of mRNA and viral vector vaccines. A lot less side effects reported in clinical trials, too.

[Waylander]

8 hours ago, Stan said:

Took the screenshot for you. 

Double-dose and the risk of death is lower compared to unvaccinated or 1 dose... 

Agree that the risk identified on the table suggests it is less risky with the vaccine, yet you could understand hospital staff not conversant with these stats would judge the death numbers at face value. Currently almost 6-7x more deaths for vaccinated 2nd vaccine.  

[MUFC]

Unlubed bummings.

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 15/11/2021 at 18:03, Harry said:

I fully support your defence of science, but whilst we're on the subject of its flaws, some criticisms I have of science and expertise:

1. The biggest flaw of science is the way it gets written up by the media. Dramatizing it, exaggerating the level of certainty of uncertainty. "May cause" gets presented as "probably does cause". And then secondary reporting on the report by cable news and agenda driven outlets amplifies the inaccuracies.

2. Experts in a particular field can be biased towards the importance of their field in a complex multi variate situation such as a pandemic. 

3. Universities, and the pressure they're under to churn out research results in some shite getting published because jobs are on the line.

4. Similar to 3, the body of knowledge is affected by confirmation bias. For example climate change becomes a point of investigation of every facet of life (E.g global bird population). Numerous papers with a hypothesis that is "climate change may explain change in this particular system". I think this does result in some incorrect conclusions at times. Correlation is not causation. For example the conclusion may be that a certain observed change is caused (or may be caused) by climate change however in fact it may just be correlated, and the actual cause may just be increasing global population (which itself causes climate change). Most likely the published science will be properly inconclusive but the media reporting will go a step further than the paper itself.

5. Its absolutely possible to follow the science but still make incorrect (or at the very least questionable) decisions.

I think those are fair criticisms. However science is far more right than wrong, and a bigger problem is the exploitation of the uncertainty by bad actors (on both sides), such as the type that make dodgy YouTube clips that anti vaxxers latch on to or that exaggerate things to keep the Greenies at maximum passion.

 

 

Those are all good points and I don't dispute any of them. And I also agree with @nudge that peer review is a deeply flawed process that could/should be improved - or just be left the way it is... but should be better explained to the public - and that many scientific research studies/reports are highly political in nature.

Having said all that, despite the flaws, when there's a scientific consensus on something it means there's reasoning based off things that were observed to achieve that consensus. So it's always worth looking at what the scientific consensus has to say about something because there's something backing those ideas.

I'm not saying we should just blindly believe every scientist we hear 

 

[RandoEFC+]

6 hours ago, Happy Blue said:

So at 2.92% the vaccine is more dangerous than covid even with the inflated covid death figures? 

You present "suspected adverse effect" figures as hard fact and less than a page later you're pedalling the "inflated Covid death figures" again. This is what I was talking about earlier. Guy with Covid gets hit by a bus, you lot are all like "I bet the government will count that as a Covid death bloody ridiculous", guy that's had the vaccine gets hit by a bus "yet another death from the vaccine 99.9% blah blah blah". You can't have it both ways.

I've spent most of this debate assuming you at least partially had your tongue in your cheek but it's genuinely worrying if you think it's a credible position to paint "suspected adverse effects" as hard evidence of vaccine deaths and accuse the numbers of Covid deaths as being inflated.

[Happy Blue]

3 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

You present "suspected adverse effect" figures as hard fact

These figures are hard facts and not suspected. I should of corrected stan earlier but got busy and forgot. the data is from yellow card.uk

 

[Guest]

@Stan I dont know if I've missentipreted you.(I'm 99% certain I have) Are you saying there is a 1% chance of dying from getting vacinated? I'm virtually 100% certain that if a vaccine had a 1% chance of killing you it wouldn't be allowed. AstraZeneca wasnt allowed to be used on under 40s and the chances of it giving you a clot and it killing you were around a million to one. There was a bit of a mix up and i got sent for an AstraZeneca vaccine and the nurse went through the chances and it was about a million to 1. I wasn't allowed to have it even though I was happy to 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Guest

[Happy Blue]

8 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Stan I dont know if I've missentipreted you.(I'm 99% certain I have) Are you saying there is a 1% chance of dying from getting vacinated? I'm virtually 100% certain that if a vaccine had a 1% chance of killing you it wouldn't be allowed. AstraZeneca wasnt allowed to be used on under 40s and the chances of it giving you a clot and it killing you were around a million to one. There was a bit of a mix up and i got sent for an AstraZeneca vaccine and the nurse went through the chances and it was about a million to 1. I wasn't allowed to have it even though I was happy to 

Yes, that's what he was saying and other jab is double that (fact that there's only a 1.37% of dying from the Astra-Zeneca vaccine according to your own source. And it only slightly increases with the Pfizer vaccine (2.92%)  

[Guest]

@Stan it's a bit late for me to be analysing data and I'm abit a bit tired so might make a few errors. I'm not debating you because I know you are pro vax. Anyway people register for yellow card to report possible side effects from the vaccine to help get more data on side affects. Basically say 100 people report POSSIBLE side affects from the vaccine and one of them is a fatality that obviously  means that one percent of the reported cases was a fatality. That doesnt mean that 1% of people who get vaccinated will die from it. Experts released the last data on 11th November and concluded that vaccination was the safest way to stop covid. Obviously if 1 in 100 people were dying from the vaccine they wouldn't have said that. 

[DeadLinesman]

4 hours ago, Happy Blue said:

These figures are hard facts and not suspected. I should of corrected stan earlier but got busy and forgot. the data is from yellow card.uk

 

Mate. Yellow card is literally a reporting site for ‘suspected’ links. It isn’t hard fact. They even state this in their introduction. @RandoEFCis spot on. You can’t have your cake and eat it.

[Happy Blue]

4 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

Mate. Yellow card is literally a reporting site for ‘suspected’ links. It isn’t hard fact. They even state this in their introduction. @RandoEFCis spot on. You can’t have your cake and eat it.

My bad, i thought it was factual but still alarming numbers of vaccine injury's reported, i really hope kids are not forced to have this

[RandoEFC+]

I would actually like to add some views of my own instead of just persistently challenging the anti-vaxx stuff.

Health workers - I'm theoretically in favour of it being compulsory for health and care workers to get the vaccine because of the infectious nature of the virus and their regular exposure to vulnerable people. In practice though, at least in the UK where the NHS and social care are essentially in a constant state of crisis, it seems counter-productive to go as far as laying off thousands of staff that they can't afford to lose and I don't think it's an invalid point that it will cause a bigger, broader problem than continuing to employ unvaccinated staff. I do think that those who don't have a medical reason not to get the jab are being irresponsible in this instance if they don't have it, but I know very little of their lives and I have the utmost respect for people who choose caring for others as their profession, so I'm hesitant to go in two-footed on them and the threat of unemployment to coerce them into getting it done doesn't feel right to me.

Children - I've seen first hand the chaos Covid has wreaked on kids' education. We've had a few waves at my place which basically brings your classes to a standstill or forces kids to miss loads of lesson time while isolating. However, the majority of kids do miss a week of school here and there to flu or whatever else. The risk posed by potential vaccine side-effects compared to the potential long-term effects of Covid itself are up for debate to an extent although you have to trust the medical bodies who have approved it. If I had kids I'd probably want them to get the vaccine, but it's one tool in suppressing the amount of chaos it's causing in education. The guidance is to leave windows open and get the ventilation going, etc. which at this time of year is really difficult with the weather and temperatures. Ultimately though, I don't think it makes a huge difference whether kids get the jab or whether they don't and end up missing two weeks of school with an illness. Individually, I can see why they wouldn't do it but there's no doubt that if there were widespread vaccinations among school-age children the effect of decreasing the spread of the virus would accumulate and become worthwhile.