UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Inverted]

It's like Orwell said:

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine the same right-wing Facebook copypaste stamped on a smartphone screen - forever". 

[God is Haaland]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

@Fairy In Boots where do you copy and paste your posts from ?

I saw on FoxesTalk someone mentioned the exact same first 3 lines that they'd seen from another forum. So copied one of the lines in to Google...

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?61422-General-Election-2019-Boris-Poll-Dancing/page38#.XfFoLGT7RPY

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/what_no_jon_ashworth_thread-713440

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1204521836874227712.html

https://millwall-forum.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/boris-and-the-sick-4-year-old-kid.39713/page-7

https://www.facebook.com/LBC/posts/im-still-a-bit-undecided-about-my-vote-direction-this-coming-thursdayive-obvious/10157745977861558/

Seems a bit odd you'd do it word for word as well  

Someone in St. Petersburg just blushed.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Oooh interesting. 

Also weirdly, if you’re concerned about the IRA perhaps not fucking with the GFA would be a good idea.

I don’t have much optimism for this election though. Think we’ll keep giving the keys to the tories and let them keep trying to drive their way out of the ditch they’ve driven into.

[Spike]

Yeah, I can safely say without even reading that list or looking up any alternative sources that nearly all of them are indeed lies. Corbyn has only been stated to be the most 'smeared politican of all time' recently by the news press.  He could molest a gallic rooster for all I care, as long as the policies are better than the alternative.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Spike

[Fairy In Boots]

9 hours ago, Stan said:

@Fairy In Boots where do you copy and paste your posts from ?

I saw on FoxesTalk someone mentioned the exact same first 3 lines that they'd seen from another forum. So copied one of the lines in to Google...

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?61422-General-Election-2019-Boris-Poll-Dancing/page38#.XfFoLGT7RPY

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/what_no_jon_ashworth_thread-713440

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1204521836874227712.html

https://millwall-forum.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/boris-and-the-sick-4-year-old-kid.39713/page-7

https://www.facebook.com/LBC/posts/im-still-a-bit-undecided-about-my-vote-direction-this-coming-thursdayive-obvious/10157745977861558/

Seems a bit odd you'd do it word for word as well  

It was the last post from Facebook I just copied and pasted, if it was a tweet I’d have just posted the tweet. Think that’s how it’s spread

6 hours ago, BartraPique1932 said:

Someone in St. Petersburg just blushed.

Hardly a Russian bot, more like me seeing something funny and thinking “Ha I’ll post that and wind the lefty bastards up.”

Tbh I didn’t event read past the first 6 lines, I thought fuck it I’m chucking that grenade, it’s late I’m busy I can’t be arsed to keep arguing 4/5 on 1 I’m just going to troll a bit. 

I do think it’s funny how whenever anything negative comes out against sides you guys back, you lot get all paranoid about the Russians. It’s a bit tinfoil hat I must say

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Fairy In Boots

[Fairy In Boots]

Anyway majority today, on Facebook you see “I’m voting labour banners” this year it’s 50/50 I smell a majority . 

 

[Fairy In Boots]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

Yeah, I can safely say without even reading that list or looking up any alternative sources that nearly all of them are indeed lies. Corbyn has only been stated to be the most 'smeared politican of all time' recently by the news press.  He could molest a gallic rooster for all I care, as long as the policies are better than the alternative.

Here he is in Tunisia 2014 at the ceremony for the Palestinian terrorist behind the Munich Olympic terror massacre of Jewish athletes. 

“A wreath was laid but I don’t think I was involved” genuine quote. 

The selective memory in this thread is hilarious, the man’s a cunt, thank god he’ll be history come Friday. I’d be ashamed to say I’d voted for him. 

 

[Stan]

18 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Anyway majority today, on Facebook you see “I’m voting labour banners” this year it’s 50/50 I smell a majority . 

 

I've no doubt it'll be a Tory majority. 

Sadly. 

[Spike]

38 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Here he is in Tunisia 2014 at the ceremony for the Palestinian terrorist behind the Munich Olympic terror massacre of Jewish athletes. 

“A wreath was laid but I don’t think I was involved” genuine quote. 

The selective memory in this thread is hilarious, the man’s a cunt, thank god he’ll be history come Friday. I’d be ashamed to say I’d voted for him. 

 

 

That isn’t policy. You’re voting based on emotion.

[The Artful Dodger]

As if Fairy In Boots has the foggiest idea about anything that's ever happened in Tunisia, Israel or anywhere in the middle East, this is the problem. Too many people talking about what they know nothing about. Sadly its many of our politicians, on all sides. 

Ignorance used to be something which people were ashamed of and hid. Now people parade it in plain sight, even deny its existence. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[LFCMike]

[The Artful Dodger]

Full expecting a tory majority, Brexit issue being decisive. Anything else will be a pleasant surprise but I'll be in a pub several pints down when the result comes in.

[RandoEFC+]

Wish I had a job where I could take Friday off as I'd like to see things unfold but I'll probably make it until about 2am before I pack it in. It's a bit mental the timings of it all. Better if they opened the polls from midday to midday the next day, counted the votes in the afternoon and had the results as people get home from work.

[Stan]

5 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Wish I had a job where I could take Friday off as I'd like to see things unfold but I'll probably make it until about 2am before I pack it in. It's a bit mental the timings of it all. Better if they opened the polls from midday to midday the next day, counted the votes in the afternoon and had the results as people get home from work.

This. I always try and stay up as long as possible but end up calling it a day around midnight.

[Danny]

I hope the BBC’s bias against Labour and for the Tories throughout Corbyn’s leadership is reviewed, its genuinely been shambolic from an organisation that is meant to be based on impartiality. The Russell Howard Hour does a better job on scrutinising Labour/Tories impartially and hes a fucking comedian 

[Fairy In Boots]

30 minutes ago, Spike said:

That isn’t policy. You’re voting based on emotion.

Mate it’s UK policies aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. What we have is a PR centric bunch of clowns on both ends of the political spectrum with very little desire or ethics themselves. I always liken British politics to The Thick of IT, because that’s how I genuinely view both politicians and the upper eschelons of the civil service. What could be more “the thick of it” than Boris hiding in a fridge or Gordon Brown saying “what a bigot” with a hot microphone. 

I negoiate deals that can reach a few mill in value so I’ve been through the same media training they go through, you’re taught to twist back to the central message you get across your prearranged point no matter how they try to throw you of guard. Hence Boris just keeps saying “get Brexit done” and you rarely get a straight answer from any politician. 

It’s for that reason I go to the core principles to decide my vote, as the grassroots memberships push agendas that the political invertebrates push themselves in turn, the vast majority of career politicians have no convictions of they’re own. They just play a balancing political posturing act to increase their standing. 

tory grassroots are less state lower tax more independent freedom.  My kind of thinking 

Labour tend to be more tax and more state, broadly central if blairites or now as the party is hijacked by momentum rabid socialists and we all know how that turns out. 

FYI U.K. services are shit, brutally inefficient and expensive bloated beyond sense in red tape. If we had German efficiency it may be different but it’s not more tax will just go some way to line civil servants already overstuffed pensions.

Corbyn and his gang are arguably less career politicians than the others granted but they’re more fundamentalist and knowing the way the U.K. works and what makes us tick I think Tory is best. 

This should be the death of Corbyns labour and hopefully we get a better opposition in 5 years time. Tories  have been shite because they haven’t needed to do anything for ten years now really, competition sharpens all. 

Unfortunately you have tribal voting in the uk hence the sub 30 demographic being widely labour they will lose that in ten years as they grow up and see it for what it is as a political system. 

21 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

As if Fairy In Boots has the foggiest idea about anything that's ever happened in Tunisia, Israel or anywhere in the middle East, this is the problem. Too many people talking about what they know nothing about. Sadly its many of our politicians, on all sides. 

Ignorance used to be something which people were ashamed of and hid. Now people parade it in plain sight, even deny its existence. 

Yes because you have an accurate understanding of my knowledge of the Middle East. Love the tactic of being dismissive though great job. 

35 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Case in point @Spike the entire city of Liverpool are rabid socialists and they blame the cities problems in the 80’s on Thatcher (not entirely accurate btw) but they would vote labour if even if the local candidate raped their old dears they’re that far gone. Likewise shitholes like Rochdale still vote labour despite labour not giving a fuck about their children being raped by the new ethnic voting demographic they’re happy to court. 

[Stan]

Yes because that's why Rochdale vote Labour  fucking hell man.

[Pyfish+]

Seeing some nice queues outside the polling stations already. 

I'm going to be voting a little later on but in the meantime it's refreshing the #DogsAtPollingStations on Twitter

[The Artful Dodger]

17 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

 

Yes because you have an accurate understanding of my knowledge of the Middle East. Love the tactic of being dismissive though great job. 

 

I apologise if I've got you wrong and you are actually well read on the intricacies of the middle east, have engaged with both sides of the debate and tried to get a well rounded picture of everything. I just imagine the first you'd ever heard of the 1985 tunis bombing was when you read it about in the Sun/Mail etc, if that's incorrect, then I am sorry. I have tried to read as much as I can, yes, from both sides of the argument.

It's not just the right, there are plenty of the left who don't know the very fundamentals of the creation of Israel, history of Zionism etc. It's why there is no hope, if people don't know their history properly then they won't know anything about the present and future.

[RandoEFC+]

There's elements of good points in what Fairy has to say in between the sporadic Mail/Sun front page shite about champagne socialism and Muslims raping every child in Rochdale.

Before Brexit caused a quake down the middle of society, we were ticking over reasonably well under the centrist governments of Blair and then Cameron. Under our system having a bit of Labour then a bit of Tory every few years probably keeps us in equilibrium between the economy just about surviving without there being too much inequality. Getting a decade of one party tends to cause problems though, especially when they've gone as far left and right as they seem to have now.

I think it's an undeniable fact that when people start hitting their mid 30s, with a solid career and a family, they start to think more about what they want their money to go towards and move towards a more Conservative mindset. We need to separate the majority of these people who are interested in leaving enough money behind for their kids to have a start in life from the elitist billionaires who wouldn't notice the extra money getting taxed from them. It makes a very real difference to people earning in the £30k to £50k region being able to keep a bit more money each month if they've got a couple of kids. That's a few grand over the course of a few years and you might end up needing it for any number of different reasons or emergencies.

I think a major difference in our generation is housing prices. For our parents' generation, there was a natural progression where you get your job and start saving up for a house, which was realistic even when you were earning a mediocre salary. Now the majority of workers in their 20s are faced with the reality that even if they're on £30k and they save sensible, they aren't going to be able to afford a house for 15-20 years, so if there's a little bit more tax to nibble away at those savings, as long as they're comfortable enough day to day then they probably aren't as bothered about that money going to the NHS or schools because saving up for a mortgage seems so unrealistic anyway. If this was 30 years ago when nearly anyone could save up and buy a house by their early-mid-30s then it would probably piss you off more because the house is in sight and the government pinching more of your money is slowing you down from achieving a realistic goal. I'm in a different situation on the Isle of Man where getting to that mortgage is more achievable for a variety of reasons but I'm in the lucky minority.

Fundamentally, I agree with meritocracy, and fundamentally, having a system where everyone keeps their money and pays for whatever goods, education and health they need is probably the most fair, in theory, but that relies on there being no outliers such as disabled people, others who are unable to work, an economy which doesn't change causing jobs to disappear in some sectors and crop up in others. In its own way, it's just as idealistic as communism or marxism. Obviously we're talking about two total extremes here and the real world moves across a spectrum.

I don't live in England anymore so I can't vote. I mean I could make a postal vote in Chorley where I used to live but the Speaker occupies that seat now so there isn't any point in me going through the effort. I know that I would vote Labour (or Green in a proportional system where it would be worthwhile) even when I'm earning a more handsome salary in my 30s and 40s. Yes, part of this is because I'm a teacher and employed by the public sector, but it goes beyond that. If I won millions of pounds on the lottery, I would probably give each of my family members about £100k, keep a few of those for myself and my future kids and then put the rest to good work wherever I could. What brings me happiness is being healthy and my friends and family being healthy. Having enough money to make a living and never have to worry about cash flow is all I need from money to be happy. I don't buy new cars, I'm happy with my average Ford Fiesta, I don't splash out on holidays though when I have a family I'd probably want to be able to afford one or two a year. Beyond that, more money won't make me more happy. Other people struggling because they can't afford the things they need makes me unhappy though, even if I don't know them, and even if it's their own fault, because I believe people deserve another chance to get back on the ladder. I'm fundamentally a liberal person and I could quite easily have gone into accountancy or been an actuary instead of a teacher, be earning £50k a year already, and I would still say all of this, and act on it too.

There's nothing tribal about my opinions. My parents are Conservative-leaning, my Dad more than my Mum who's a bit more open to both sides, but they haven't had to think about voting in the UK since way before I was born because they've lived over here. My grandparents on my Mum's side were definite Conservative voters back in their time living across, although that was a very different Conservative party to the one in front of us today. I make my own mind up and while it's inescapable that the majority of the country probably end up voting based on what they're surrounded by while they're growing up. I respect anyone else who makes their own mind up as well.

Other minor points: I don't think you can hold it against the residents of Liverpool for standing together in favour of Labour for countless reasons over the years. There are still thousands of people there who vote Conservative as well though, they just get dominated by the Labour voters. Nobody needs to call anyone a rabid lefty bastard or a right-wing fascist. I think most of us would agree that the toxicity around right vs left these days is almost as bad as "the other side" getting into power, if not worse. I know passions run high but whatever the results are tonight, it's less important than trying to heal the divisions that have made their way from parliament into everyday life more than I've ever experienced.

Didn't intend to waffle on quite this much...

[RandoEFC+]

The other point I forgot to make was about the electoral system again.

I already made a post about proportional representation recently, but I really think if we're ever to be a progressive country where the 'right' and 'left' can actually be made to work together to find a centre ground with the best elements from both instead of this stupid game where whoever takes a narrow victory in terms of seats gets to decide everything for five years, proportional representation is necessary.

The House of Lords needs to go. An absolute medieval institution, and it's an absolute disgrace that 'hereditary' peers get to have any say at all in the legislation of this country just because their great great great grandfather was a rich motherfucker, even though they barely do anything in reality.

[Inverted]

Today/tomorrow is going to be very ugly. The Tories will almost surely get the landslide as arranged, and we will have to deal with the reality that our already horrific situation is going to get a lot worse.

If they don't get a majority by some miracle, every instrument of power in the country will go into panic mode. There will be accusations of electoral fraud, intimidation, some new antisemitism revelation will surely arise, concerns about national security will be raised, and hate against Scots will stoked to try and pressure Labour not to deal with the SNP. 

[Fairy In Boots]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

I hope the BBC’s bias against Labour and for the Tories throughout Corbyn’s leadership is reviewed, its genuinely been shambolic from an organisation that is meant to be based on impartiality. The Russell Howard Hour does a better job on scrutinising Labour/Tories impartially and hes a fucking comedian 

Lol the BBC has been 3 remain vs 1 leaver on its flagship political programme for 3 years now and your talk about unbiased is a lefty comedian from Lib Dem cousin fucker Bristol give your head a wobble. 

1 hour ago, Stan said:

Yes because that's why Rochdale vote Labour  fucking hell man.

Yes it is Stan, some constituency’s it’s that ingrained that our politics has descended into tribal bs. You ever been in an ex mining village?

Also Rochdale was where Brown called a typical labour voter in that constituency a bigot and they still voted. 

51 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I apologise if I've got you wrong and you are actually well read on the intricacies of the middle east, have engaged with both sides of the debate and tried to get a well rounded picture of everything. I just imagine the first you'd ever heard of the 1985 tunis bombing was when you read it about in the Sun/Mail etc, if that's incorrect, then I am sorry. I have tried to read as much as I can, yes, from both sides of the argument.

It's not just the right, there are plenty of the left who don't know the very fundamentals of the creation of Israel, history of Zionism etc. It's why there is no hope, if people don't know their history properly then they won't know anything about the present and future.

Lol I’ve not read the sun or star or mirror is 20 years. Mail online I do see from time to time but it’s typically shite about Kardashian’s. 

I know about the creation of Israel and displacement of Palestinians, however I side with the Israelis because basically they’d be wiped out if they didn’t have the state as they have been in pretty much all of the Middle East now. And the fact a free Palestine would basically offer us fuck all, it would be about as useful as chocolate teapot. It’s just a vehicle for people to make themselves look like great humanitarians. Where’s the upset from the Labour Party against the ethnic cleansing in Burma? 

It’s basically a stick for socialist to beat Jews with because of the banking system nowadays let just be honest. 

What does a free Palestine offer us? Cheaper oranges? A few dates? 

[Honey Honey]

Actually Rochdale was a Lib Dem constituency between 2005 and 2010. Labour only beat the Lib Dems by 2% in 2010 then went on to barnstorm in 2015 and 2017. Rochdale also had Lib Dem Cyril Smith as MP in the 80s.

The common UKIP used excuse that they can't penetrate Rochdale because of some rabid Labour loyalty does not look true.

A common trait of political losers is to externalise. To strip the voter of their agency. How could they possibly not vote for our morally superior position? There must be something wrong with them! They must be thick and brainwashed. It's never that the package that you're offering simply wasn't good enough to encapsulate a broad enough spectrum to win the most votes. Once you position your politics as right versus wrong you're on a path to deluding yourself in defeat. 

We are going to see this on speed tomorrow regardless of who wins.

[The Artful Dodger]

9 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

Actually Rochdale was a Lib Dem constituency between 2005 and 2010. Labour only beat the Lib Dems by 2% in 2010 then went on to barnstorm in 2015 and 2017. Rochdale also had Lib Dem Cyril Smith as MP in the 80s.

The common UKIP used excuse that they can't penetrate Rochdale because of some rabid Labour loyalty does not look true.

A common trait of political losers is to externalise. To strip the voter of their agency. How could they possibly not vote for our morally superior position? There must be something wrong with them! They must be thick and brainwashed. It's never that the package that you're offering simply wasn't good enough to encapsulate a broad enough spectrum to win the most votes. Once you position your politics as right versus wrong you're on a path to deluding yourself in defeat. 

We are going to see this on speed tomorrow regardless of who wins.

The general public are generally bellends though.