UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[RandoEFC+]

13 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I do wonder if brexit could cause some good attitude changes. It's gonna be harder for people to blame immigrants for their own problems. They can't blame the EU once it has no control over us. It could force people to except more responsibility and actually decrease racist attitude's.

The thing is, they'll just argue that you won't see the benefits for years, which would probably be true if there were going to be any benefits.

I don't know if it's just how people are, but we've been a very bitter country as long as I've been old enough to notice. Maybe it truly does stem from the fact that Britain really is just a middle of the road alright Western country at the end of the day. We have a great history but right now nothing makes us any more significant than most other developed countries if we're being honest. Everyone is moaning or blaming someone else for something. Nobody is ever happy in this country. If there were no immigrants or Muslims to blame then people would just focus more on lefties vs fascists or the North South divide or Scotland or rich white people or poor white people or gays or Protestants vs Catholics. People have been finding excuses to fight and argue and hate each other for generations. Brexit is just the latest symptom, not the cause.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

The thing is, they'll just argue that you won't see the benefits for years, which would probably be true if there were going to be any benefits.

I don't know if it's just how people are, but we've been a very bitter country as long as I've been old enough to notice. Maybe it truly does stem from the fact that Britain really is just a middle of the road alright Western country at the end of the day. We have a great history but right now nothing makes us any more significant than most other developed countries if we're being honest. Everyone is moaning or blaming someone else for something. Nobody is ever happy in this country. If there were no immigrants or Muslims to blame then people would just focus more on lefties vs fascists or the North South divide or Scotland or rich white people or poor white people or gays or Protestants vs Catholics. People have been finding excuses to fight and argue and hate each other for generations. Brexit is just the latest symptom, not the cause.

I'm not sure if I agree with you that people will say we won't see the benefit for years. I think people are generally quite inpatient. If in two years time we are seeing negative impacts of it I think a lot of people will turn on Johnson.

[Harry]

2 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

 

The problem with politics in general in many countries is historical. Why must it be one party or another? Is there ever going to be realistic change with the same old parties? The fact constituencies can go 50/70 years without any change is fucking embarrassing.

I suspect the true answer to this is quite an unpleasant one that the games been rigged to be such.

[RandoEFC+]

6 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I'm not sure if I agree with you that people will say we won't see the benefit for years. I think people are generally quite inpatient. If in two years time we are seeing negative impacts of it I think a lot of people will turn on Johnson.

I think you're underestimating how much the "I told you so" dynamic has taken over the whole Brexit conundrum. When was the last time you heard someone actually try and convince us that Brexit was a good idea? They don't even bother trying now, the Conservative message was literally, let's get Brexit out of the way, it's become an inconvenience. They aren't bothering to even pretend that it's going to help the country anymore because they know that many of the people who have committed to Leave care more about 'winning' than what they've actually won.

The Remain campaign did a shit job in the referendum but they've done an even worse job since. The Leave demographic are so much more passionate about their cause than Remainers (on average). There has been minimal push to convince people that Remaining is a better idea and very little effort to keep stopping Brexit as the top priority for Remain voters, which means a lot more Remainers have fallen into a Brexit-neutral category than Leavers when it comes to Election Day. If there had been massive campaigning to remind everyone on a daily basis how much Remain should mean to them, a real counter-strategy to "Get Brexit Done", then maybe it would have been a bit closer.

[Danny]

2 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

That’s your opinion though. Many people will hate Corbyn far more than Johnson, and for many different reasons. Many of them will have course been led by the media and manipulated.

It is my opinion and I agree with you there. I’m not a Corbyn lover personally, his policies I like and I’ve been very wary of his Labour once I was made aware of the anti-semitism that became rife under his leadership...but in comparison to Johnson that’s it. Nobody is safe under the Tories, Johnson’s history of racism is frankly shocking and it’s of no surprise that England has voted him in as people will still stick by him as he plays to a colonial tune whereas England simply can’t stomach the the more socialist and anti-colonial views and policies of Corbyn.

This country is well and truly fucked if Scotland leaves, Labour will have no chance.

[The Artful Dodger]

People need to join up the dots, why did Britain vote to leave the EU? There was a large right-wing element but the core of it was total exasperation with the state of things as they are. Speaking anecdotally, my mother's family are from Pontefract, a mining town. It's absolutely devastated. Now I'm not saying we should return to coal or even that the closure of the mines didn't need to happen at some point, but it's the way it was done, the treatment of people as 'the enemy within', just good, honest working people trying to make a decent life for themselves as a family. It was only the split with the Brexit Party that prevented the Tories from taking it?! My Uncle and Grandfather would be spinning in their graves. The economic dogma we've had for 40 years, unchallenged even by a Labour government, is responsible for the society we now live in.

The real, real issue with how we are in this state is how we run our economy, and that seeps into our culture. Labour need to keep the message of change up, if they go back to New Labour they may prove popular for a bit but ultimately they are just buying into what is destroying our country.

[DeadLinesman]

1 hour ago, shut up said:

Nope. Corbyn was polling at 40% literally earlier in year, with tories on 39%. (he got 41% in the previous election)  the pivot on brexit is the main reason for the loss of seats in the midlands and the north.

there is a direct correlation of labour's brexit policy change and going down in the polls. if we had starmer in charge with same brexit policy, conservatives still have a majority today

I’m going to get the ‘bias bbc, bias media’ response to this. But check out other news outlets, Facebook, Twitter etc. They can’t all be wrong....

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-voted-for-tony-blair-but-dont-mention-corbyn-in-sedgefield-9k7cv0wj7

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/0/why-jeremy-corbyn-unpopular-polls/

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, RandoEFC said:

I think you're underestimating how much the "I told you so" dynamic has taken over the whole Brexit conundrum. When was the last time you heard someone actually try and convince us that Brexit was a good idea? They don't even bother trying now, the Conservative message was literally, let's get Brexit out of the way, it's become an inconvenience. They aren't bothering to even pretend that it's going to help the country anymore because they know that many of the people who have committed to Leave care more about 'winning' than what they've actually won.

The Remain campaign did a shit job in the referendum but they've done an even worse job since. The Leave demographic are so much more passionate about their cause than Remainers (on average). There has been minimal push to convince people that Remaining is a better idea and very little effort to keep stopping Brexit as the top priority for Remain voters, which means a lot more Remainers have fallen into a Brexit-neutral category than Leavers when it comes to Election Day. If there had been massive campaigning to remind everyone on a daily basis how much Remain should mean to them, a real counter-strategy to "Get Brexit Done", then maybe it would have been a bit closer.

I'm about confused as to what that has to do with the point I made mate.

My point is that I think when or if the negative affects of brexit start happening I don't think all brexiteers will say it will take a few years before it gets better. I think the strong (get brexit done under any circumstances ) brexiteers will say that,or they'll just blame left wingers in parliament and say that it isn't working because of them. (Basically they won't admit they were wrong whatever happens)

However I think quite a few brexiteers will say they got it wrong but they will blame Jonson and turn against him.

[RandoEFC+]

2 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I'm about confused as to what that has to do with the point I made mate.

My point is that I think when or if the negative affects of brexit start happening I don't think all brexiteers will say it will take a few years before it gets better. I think the strong (get brexit done under any circumstances ) brexiteers will say that,or they'll just blame left wingers in parliament and say that it isn't working because of them. (Basically they won't admit they were wrong whatever happens)

However I think quite a few brexiteers will say they got it wrong but they will blame Jonson and turn against him.

Yeah, my point is, I think your last line is pretty optimistic based on what we've seen since 2016. Some of them will yeah but not enough. And even if they do, how many more previous Leavers will have been convinced by the Daily Mail that the only reason Brexit isn't a romping success is because Corbyn has been smuggling Marxist anti-semitic Muslim tarantulas into the country causing a recession and increased taxes?

I think things are going to have to get really extremely bad for an extended amount of time before we see the tide turn. After a result like last night, it usually takes the next election for a battered party just to scrape back the seats that they should never have lost, and then the election after that they can start to go on the attack and think about winning. Things have changed in our system in recent years though so maybe that won't be the case this time.

[Pyfish+]

Interesting to see how it all breaks down with total votes v seats.

[The Artful Dodger]

32 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

I’m going to get the ‘bias bbc, bias media’ response to this. But check out other news outlets, Facebook, Twitter etc. They can’t all be wrong....

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-voted-for-tony-blair-but-dont-mention-corbyn-in-sedgefield-9k7cv0wj7

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/0/why-jeremy-corbyn-unpopular-polls/

 

 

Labour voters are not angels, we shouldn't pander to their worst inclinations. People who tend to hate Nicola Sturgeon tend to be dubious people, hate the Scottish etc. Labour should stand on principle and if we lose, then we have to make the argument better but never pander to the likes of him.

[DeadLinesman]

5 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Labour voters are not angels, we shouldn't pander to their worst inclinations. People who tend to hate Nicola Sturgeon tend to be dubious people, hate the Scottish etc. Labour should stand on principle and if we lose, then we have to make the argument better but never pander to the likes of him.

One of my best mates is Scottish and he despises Sturgeon. True story 

[Stan]

1 hour ago, DeadLinesman said:

I’m going to get the ‘bias bbc, bias media’ response to this. But check out other news outlets, Facebook, Twitter etc. They can’t all be wrong....

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-voted-for-tony-blair-but-dont-mention-corbyn-in-sedgefield-9k7cv0wj7

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/0/why-jeremy-corbyn-unpopular-polls/

 

 

I don't get his logic.

If he wanted to write 'none of the above' he literally could have written none of the above. 

[Michael]

14 hours ago, Batard said:

Another turgid 5 years of Conservative erosion of the welfare state, enforced poverty upon those who already can't afford it and tax breaks to those who can. There's something to be said about a system of government where your biggest backers can smear your opponents so as to protect their own arse against a sizeable tax bill. There's an almost an absurdity to the sway Rupert Murdoch holds. It can surely only result in electoral reform, financial backers should not have this leverage over the public. 

Yes and we can expect more austerity as the public spending cuts continue under the Tories. Whether they realise it or not, this vote outcome doesn't promise to be good for the average working class person. Since the Tories took power in 2010, there have been huge budget cuts, particularly to the Work & Pensions departments, the Transport department and the DCLG. Expect such cuts to continue.

[God is Haaland]

Corbyn has to be the worst leader in the history of British politics. He had the pm's job served to him on a silver plate, he refused to grab it because of his deluded ideological views and it took him two years to realise that international trade doesn't work the way it did half a century ago. And ofc he never stopped antagonising remainers, of which many wouldn't vote Libdem because they reject neoliberal nonsense. 

[DeadLinesman]

1 hour ago, shut up said:

so it's a coincidence that vast majority of seats lost were leave seats? anecdotal evidence doesn't trump the data.

 

I get this. However, to completely disregard the part Corbyn has had to play is again, nonsensical. That is all.

[Fairy In Boots]

5 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I'm sure you don't live that sad of a life that this is what you're most pleased about. Hopefully you voted based on your own morals and the belief that this will be better for the country rather than the prospect of enjoying "those salty Lefty/Remainer tears" and that this is just a reaction to the people who have called you names in the past. Again, you strike me as someone who actually loves the country being divided and other people being upset but then again you did say you didn't care about the NHS a few pages ago as long as you can afford private healthcare. 

Let's see how Brexit goes before deciding who was "way off". None of this changes the fact that even the government's own projections show that Brexit is going to make the country worse in the short term, that even Rees-Mogg said it could take 50-100 years to see an improvement and that just about every Economics professor in the country thinks it's a bad idea which is ironic because the Conservative Party's main attack line against Labour is that they'll ruin the economy. Just because a lot of people voted for something doesn't mean it'll be a good thing. People voted for Hitler and the Nazis once too.

The 'lefties' might be crying today but if you're going to include me under that umbrella then I'd rather give you the satisfaction of other people being upset about a life that they haven't voted for being inflicted upon them by other people and go on to live my life with some compassion than sit on my opinions. The side you voted for won fair and square so go and celebrate with like-minded folks rather than rubbing it in the faces of people who are gutted because they genuinely believe (and at this point it doesn't matter who is right or wrong) that their lives and their friends', family's and children's lives are about to get worse for the next 5 years. This wasn't a football match, it's people's lives.

oh Diddums. I’m sorry the left don’t get to play the victim, as an ideology broadly speaking the behaviour of most of them has been disgusting for years. It’s typically aggressive quick to pidgeon hole dissenting options and vile. I get your quite mild mannered but the wider support out in the world isn’t. Fuck them I laugh at twats crying because “the nhs is going to be privatised” that’s political suicide it won’t happen. We had 24 hours to save the NHS 2 years ago then 2 years before that when all the damage was done by New labour under Blair. 

5 hours ago, Michael said:

Yes, well that's happened in quite a few constituencies around the country, all due to Labour's poor campaign and due to the fact that Corbyn put a lot of people off with his radical views on politics. There are a lot of people who would of been opposed to many of his policies, landlords being one of them. 

But at least you live in a decent part of Birmingham, I've been to Northfield and it's quite nice, being located next to some of the better areas of Brum like Bournville and Harborne.

Harbourne is part of the Edgbaston constituency that stayed Labour. Bournville is about 2 Miles from my house. Both Birmingham constituencies that flirted with conservatives last night Northfield and Erdington are the two white working class wards, total collapse of the vote for Corbyn. Also worth noting that both of these are what’s left of white working class Birmingham with increasing demographic change. 

5 hours ago, Stan said:

Says more about you than anyone else really.

Haha don’t care I’ve literally howled with laughter at dummy spitting by the likes of Lily Allen. Fuck her she’s a silly cunt and happy to put the boot in but obviously can’t take it

4 hours ago, Danny said:

The thing with Corbyn is how can you genuinely say you could never vote for him and vote for Johnson? Whether people like Corbyn or not Johnson is catagorically more of a cunt.

But that sums this country up because Corbyn has put off a lot of older Brexit supporting Labour voters, but he also attracted the youth vote last time around where Labour had a monumental increase. He just couldn’t sustain that this time around and the loss has been pretty shocking.

There are a lot of good women that could be in the running for leadership and I look forward to change tbh, a less divisive Labour Party amongst its own voters is the only way they’ll beat the Tories in 5 years time.

Just lol give your head a rattle digest the results take a deep breath and say out load “the British public saw corbyn for what he was a nasty little antisemite terrorist loving socialist cunt” and then maybe you will realise he’s toxic. 

4 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

He's a twat. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, thought maybe he's a nice guy just with different views. But he really is just a nasty peice of work. 

lol I’m the nasty one absolutely no self awareness today it’s brilliant 

4 hours ago, MUFC said:

I best start saving up in case I need to go to A&E.

are you for real? 

3 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Well I don't think that's true. Part of what he says on here is a reaction to people calling him names first. I don't know whether the chicken or the egg came first but any name calling by anyone isn't helpful now. I'm not defending some of the things he's said in this thread, I've challenged them myself, but challenge his words if you disagree with them rather than challenging him as an overall person if you get what I'm saying.

You mean debate me, what a novel idea, maybe we should do such things on a forum?

54 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

I’m going to get the ‘bias bbc, bias media’ response to this. But check out other news outlets, Facebook, Twitter etc. They can’t all be wrong....

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-voted-for-tony-blair-but-dont-mention-corbyn-in-sedgefield-9k7cv0wj7

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/0/why-jeremy-corbyn-unpopular-polls/

 

 

Lol BBC bias is another funny one utterly mindless from some of them. 

[The Artful Dodger]

I'm not sure who's happier, the Tories or most of the Guardian columnists, the glee is palpable.

Edited December 13, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[God is Haaland]

8 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm not sure who's happier, the Tories or most of the Guardian columnists, the glee is palpable.

Why Guardian columnists? Because they are going to have an easy job for the next four years or because they correctly predicted Corbyn would turn out to be the miserable loser we witnessed last night?

[The Artful Dodger]

3 minutes ago, BartraPique1932 said:

Why Guardian columnists? Because they are going to have an easy job for the next four years or because they correctly predicted Corbyn would turn out to be the miserable loser we witnessed last night?

The Guardian are a paper largely staffed by extremely privileged people who like to say they vote Labour because it sounds good but tremble at the thought of a government doing anything even remotely left wing, might affect their income you see. Many people were right about Corbyn, even as someone who liked his ideas I knew he was going to be unpopular. I'm sure anyone who has lived in the real world knows that something being unpopular does not mean it is not right, but sadly in politics that does not matter.

Edited December 13, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Michael]

"Harbourne is part of the Edgbaston constituency that stayed Labour. Bournville is about 2 Miles from my house. Both Birmingham constituencies that flirted with conservatives last night Northfield and Erdington are the two white working class wards, total collapse of the vote for Corbyn. Also worth noting that both of these are what’s left of white working class Birmingham with increasing demographic change. "

Yes, Harborne is part of the Edgbaston constituency where Labour won and Bournville is part of the Selly Oak Borough constituency where Labour won as well. In fact, Labour won quite comfortably in their Selly Oak constituency. I noticed which way Northfield and Erdington voted. I suppose then the Northfield, Selly Oak, Edgbaston and Halesowen constituencies are mostly white middle class wards then.

The demographic picture in Birmingham has seen a huge change over the past 20, 30, 40 and 50 years. The East, North and Western parts of the city are very multicultural these days. Different ethnic minorities are known generally to vote in a particular way and politicians try their hardest to get their vote. Every community has their own issues and that influences the way they vote. But Birmingham has historically been a very working class city.

[IgnisExcubitor]

At least Marina Hyde writes funny pieces sometimes. What do Ash Sarkar and Owen Jones contribute apart from childish public tantrums that are only aimed at increasing their profiles to prolong their career?

On a side note. 

Weird how some on the left exhibit this behaviour every time they lose. 

The jacket with 'Kill Tories' is scary. And these same people will cry fascism while demanding kindness. 

[Burning Gold]

6 hours ago, shut up said:

Nope. Corbyn was polling at 40% literally earlier in year, with tories on 39%. (he got 41% in the previous election)  the pivot on brexit is the main reason for the loss of seats in the midlands and the north.

there is a direct correlation of labour's brexit policy change and going down in the polls. if we had starmer in charge with same brexit policy, conservatives still have a majority today

I think you're half right. It was Brexit that decided this election in the main, but not Labour's policy on it. Their hands were tied. The voter base was too split for them to either go full Remain or full Leave, while all the Tories had to do was commit to Leave to rally theirs and pick up the extra votes they needed.

Look how the polls change when "proper Brexit" Boris Johnson becomes leader, compared to the zero change when Labour announced their Brexit policy in September.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/dec/11/election-opinion-polls-uk-2019-latest-poll-tracker-tories-labour

I have no doubt that a better, more popular, less toxic leader than Jeremy Corbyn would've won more votes and probably more seats for Labour, but a Tory majority was probably unavoidable.

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, Michael said:

"Harbourne is part of the Edgbaston constituency that stayed Labour. Bournville is about 2 Miles from my house. Both Birmingham constituencies that flirted with conservatives last night Northfield and Erdington are the two white working class wards, total collapse of the vote for Corbyn. Also worth noting that both of these are what’s left of white working class Birmingham with increasing demographic change. "

Yes, Harborne is part of the Edgbaston constituency where Labour won and Bournville is part of the Selly Oak Borough constituency where Labour won as well. In fact, Labour won quite comfortably in their Selly Oak constituency. I noticed which way Northfield and Erdington voted. I suppose then the Northfield, Selly Oak, Edgbaston and Halesowen constituencies are mostly white middle class wards then.

The demographic picture in Birmingham has seen a huge change over the past 20, 30, 40 and 50 years. The East, North and Western parts of the city are very multicultural these days. Different ethnic minorities are known generally to vote in a particular way and politicians try their hardest to get their vote. Every community has their own issues and that influences the way they vote. But Birmingham has historically been a very working class city.

Yes you’re right Bournville is Selly  oak, they will be a Tory voting area though, the selly oak part that keeps it Labour is the Balsall Heath that’s high 90’s Muslim demo now, Kings Heath and moseley are trendy gentrified guardianista areas. Selly Oak is the university campus nowadays. 

Northfield is Bartley Green, Weoley, northfield, Longbridge, Kings norton. White working class areas that voted leave. 

Funnily enough I’ve just got back from dropping some beers off to an elderly family member for his birthday in Northfield. I asked what he thought about last night “brilliant, I don’t think people realise how close we came to a Marxist government, I was more concerned with that than Brexit” 

On labour

”they have got a war to fight to rescue the party from these momentum nutters”

on local mp who has gone

”75k a year they earn, he’s been in the seat since 1992, 27 years and what’s he ever done for us? And when the party needs him what’s he do? Nothing the man’s a sycophant pandered to the hard left”

hes a life long labour voter on a full civil service pension was a civil servant since 16 man and boy, yesterday he voted conservative. 

The fact he used “they” not “us” was telling. 

Also @rando I’m not half a cunt in real life here though it’s 7v1 so I’ve long since given up on rationalising with people and have resorted to chucking grenades. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Fairy In Boots

[RandoEFC+]

10 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Also @rando I’m not half a cunt in real life here though it’s 7v1 so I’ve long since given up on rationalising with people and have resorted to chucking grenades. 

I'll try to bear that in mind in future.