England National Team Discussion

[Dr. Gonzo]

25 minutes ago, Dan said:

It should be a rule that the manager follows the same rules to be eligible as players. But it isn't so why impose it on yourselves.

Should it? A lot of smaller nations have relied on having more experienced foreign coaches come in to help shape things so that future generations led by a domestic manager have a better framework.

Obviously a foreign coach will never understand what representing a different country means for the people who are actually that nationality... but I think foreign managers for a lot of countries have panned out pretty well for a lot of smaller nations tbh.

[Carnivore Chris]

On 20/12/2022 at 17:02, CaaC (John) said:

You read my brain, I was going to add that into the post I posted above but the bit about Maguire getting the yellow made me laugh, but when you think about it maybe if they (England) had a bit of aggression from the players and a few more bookings then England might get somewhere, gone are the days where you see the likes of Terry Butcher and Paul Ince with blood streaming down there faces you then know they got stuck in and fuck the blood.

I know you would not see the likes of that nowadays but being a bit ruthless and aggressive just might help England out, has Southgate made them squeaky clean? 

 I don't mean in that sense. England should be playing attacking possession football, but at the same time you need to be more agressive and shithouse a little bit. All World Cup winners or sides who go far have a little bit of this to their game.

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Carnivore Chris

[Devil-Dick Willie]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

I'm bored at work and have been thinking about the England team. The current strengths that seem to be thrown around a lot is that we have a great squad with players capable of winning a competition and that is what is levelled at Southgate, that he is not using them properly.

For me when I look at the current England team I can break it down into 3 categories; good players that ultimately aren't that great, top level players and then elite level players. I'll break the starting eleven and subs down into those categories:

Good: Pickford, Ramsdale, Rice, Phillips, Mount, Shaw, Maguire, Coady, Trippier, Dier, Gallagher, Wilson, Pope

Top Level: Sterling, Rashford, Grealish, Saka, Foden, Maddison, Henderson, Stones.

Elite:  Kane, Trent, James, Walker, Bellingham.

 

Dier on the same level as Trippier? 

Trent "I wouldn't know where my near post is if it were lit up in neon but boy can I cross a ball" Alexander Arnold is a world class right back in a conventional system? 

 

[Reluctant Striker]

2 hours ago, Danny said:

I'm bored at work and have been thinking about the England team. The current strengths that seem to be thrown around a lot is that we have a great squad with players capable of winning a competition and that is what is levelled at Southgate, that he is not using them properly.

For me when I look at the current England team I can break it down into 3 categories; good players that ultimately aren't that great, top level players and then elite level players. I'll break the starting eleven and subs down into those categories:

Good: Pickford, Ramsdale, Rice, Phillips, Mount, Shaw, Maguire, Coady, Trippier, Dier, Gallagher, Wilson, Pope

Top Level: Sterling, Rashford, Grealish, Saka, Foden, Maddison, Henderson, Stones.

Elite:  Kane, Trent, James, Walker, Bellingham.

There are two main issues with this squad based on how I rank them. The first is that is our best players are competing for the same positions, we have three world class right backs competing for the same position and then we have 5 top level wingers competing for 2 positions. Yes we have strength in depth there, but ultimately you can only ever play two wingers at once, you can only play one right back at once. Depth is great for injuries or subbing players on to change a game, but it's not great when our second main issue for me is that the rest of the first eleven is actually fairly average by top 10 international team standards.

Looking at our starting elevens throughout the tournament, teams that most England fans were actually happy about, players like Pickford, Shaw, Maguire, Rice, Henderson and Mount, these are players imo who would struggle to get consistently picked by Argentina, Brazil, France, Netherlands and Croatia.

So the team has this lack of balance where we have a really good strike force available but then a fairly average midfield and defence, and specifically looking at the midfield, we lack players who can dictate possession and thread passes through for forwards to run onto. Henderson is a great player when it comes to energising a midfield, leading players and also making world class players perform even better. But he is not the man who is going to step up and be the difference maker in midfield, and that can't solely be relied on from Bellingham either. Because away from Bellingham we don't really have many creative players. Now I did mention Maddison above, and so hopefully in the future we can see more of him, I think Maddison is the only real option as an attacking midfielder that we have moving forward, but again the options are minimal.

When you look at the list of players available for England some fans see a potential world cup winning side, but we are so stacked in positions where we can only play max 3 of the 8 or so players available, the rest struggles to compete at the very highest level.

The issue for me is that we do not have a good enough first eleven currently and I don't think sacking Southgate will change that, I'm not completely sold on Southgate but you can argue that he's best placed to work out where we can up the quality around the first team.

Yes, it's difficult to know what to make of the last 4 years. And all the 'this group of players' type pundits.

But, if World Class means struggling to find a team anywhere not giving them a start, I'd agree Kane (though I do think he is going downhill rapidly. Not still sulking that Grealish stole his apparent dream move) Bellingham (though still plenty of potential) & most of the right backs.

Also, the 5 of Rashford, Grealish, Foden, Sterling & Saka, probably make most squads.

I still think it was a better than credited win over Croatia at the Euros.

I hope we stay away from playing the Man U formation now. It wouldn't seem to suit Bellingham. And on an incidental, Man U would likely be improved with the Henderson-Liverpool style midfield set up. And Maguire & company would be having an easier time of things.

[Danny]

44 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Dier on the same level as Trippier? 

Trent "I wouldn't know where my near post is if it were lit up in neon but boy can I cross a ball" Alexander Arnold is a world class right back in a conventional system? 

 

Not much between them tbh. And is Trent is world class

5 minutes ago, Reluctant Striker said:

Yes, it's difficult to know what to make of the last 4 years. And all the 'this group of players' type pundits.

But, if World Class means struggling to find a team anywhere not giving them a start, I'd agree Kane (though I do think he is going downhill rapidly. Not still sulking that Grealish stole his apparent dream move) Bellingham (though still plenty of potential) & most of the right backs.

Also, the 5 of Rashford, Grealish, Foden, Sterling & Saka, probably make most squads.

I still think it was a better than credited win over Croatia at the Euros.

I hope we stay away from playing the Man U formation now. It wouldn't seem to suit Bellingham. And on an incidental, Man U would likely be improved with the Henderson-Liverpool style midfield set up. And Maguire & company would be having an easier time of things.

The 5 wingers do make most squads but our issue is theres only 2 positions for them.

[Machado]

On 20/12/2022 at 12:19, Carnivore Chris said:

England vs Portugal in the final with Mourinho as England manager. Both teams shithouse through the game, England win on pens, then Mourinho runs up the pitch celebrating Portugal's loss. @Machado

No doubt he would love to get the England job when he's done with clubs. Possibly even ahead of Portugal if given the choice.

[Dan+]

They'd never go for him. I'd love to see it though I can't lie.

[Stan]

Southgate picking England squad at 2pm for June Euro 2024 qualifier games. I suspect it'll be:

Goalkeepers - Pickford, Ramsdale, Pope

Defenders - Walker, Alexander-Arnold, Trippier, Shaw, Chilwell, Maguire, Stones, Guehi, Tomori, White

Midfielders - Rice, Henderson, Bellingham, Gallagher, Foden

Forwards - Grealish, Saka, Kane, Rashford, Wilson

 

 

If Dier is selected I suspect it'll be in place of Tomori. No space for Maddison rightly so as his form has tailed off considerably after Qatar. Benefit of having TAA is thanks to his new-found versatility to be a midfielder too if used correctly. And White based on how he's played for Arsenal. 

[Happy Blue]

39 minutes ago, Stan said:

Southgate picking England squad at 2pm for June Euro 2024 qualifier games. I suspect it'll be:

Goalkeepers - Pickford, Ramsdale, Pope

Defenders - Walker, Alexander-Arnold, Trippier, Shaw, Chilwell, Maguire, Stones, Guehi, Tomori, White

Midfielders - Rice, Henderson, Bellingham, Gallagher, Foden

Forwards - Grealish, Saka, Kane, Rashford, Wilson

 

 

If Dier is selected I suspect it'll be in place of Tomori. No space for Maddison rightly so as his form has tailed off considerably after Qatar. Benefit of having TAA is thanks to his new-found versatility to be a midfielder too if used correctly. And White based on how he's played for Arsenal. 

This for me too but Phillips instead of Hendo, his legs have gone

Ramsdale

Flash - Stones - Tomori - Tripp

Saka - Foden - Rice - Bellingham - Grealish

Kane

[Stan]

1 minute ago, Happy Blue said:

This for me too but Phillips instead of Hendo, his legs have gone

 

I did think about this too. But Henderson is quite clearly a big character and leader for the squad. 

Phillips looked knackered after about 60-70mins vs Chelsea. 

[Happy Blue]

19 minutes ago, Stan said:

I did think about this too. But Henderson is quite clearly a big character and leader for the squad. 

Phillips looked knackered after about 60-70mins vs Chelsea. 

It's a tough one, Phillips is lacking game time, you make a good point ..we will go with Hendo then, as long as he doesn't play 

[Happy Blue]

@StanWhat about Maddison? 

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, Happy Blue said:

@StanWhat about Maddison? 

Given he was barely getting picked when he was in very good form, I doubt Southgate picks him in the initial squad if he's basing it on the last 5 months.

I guess he'll get in people pull out due to injury.

[Stan]

Palace's Eze and Johnstone included @The Palace Fan. 

Nick Pope not included.

[Danny]

Good squad overall, some good additions in Trent, Dunk, Eze, Maddison and Wilson.

Honestly don’t get the hype behind Gallagher, I’d prefer a relegated Ward-Prowse.

Can see why Tomori hasn’t been picked, Serie A fans and pundits have mentioned all season about how his form has dipped off from last season.

[Dave]

Southgate is a big fan of Eze, he was going to be in the preliminary squad for the Euro's before his serious injury. 

Johnstone is a little surprising, I know Nick Pope's distribution is the stick his critics beat him with but he's a Champions League goalkeeper now whilst Sam Johnstone may not be the number one goalkeeper for a bottom half club next season.

[Stan]

17 minutes ago, The Palace Fan said:

Southgate is a big fan of Eze, he was going to be in the preliminary squad for the Euro's before his serious injury. 

Johnstone is a little surprising, I know Nick Pope's distribution is the stick his critics beat him with but he's a Champions League goalkeeper now whilst Sam Johnstone may not be the number one goalkeeper for a bottom half club next season.

Seen Pope is having surgery on his hand which explains that decision. 

[Spike]

I was thinking about England’s golden generetion of the 00s and they really were a bunch of divas and brats. Which player didn’t have some sort of controversy and legal trouble? Hargreaves? He is Canadian!

[Lucas]

I was reading an article earlier about how pivitol John Stones has been to City's success this season moving into that midfield role he does.

Got me thinking. There's him thriving in that position as well as Trent whwn he plays that hybrid role for Liverpool. Both talented players who really excel when on the ball.

Is there any way we could make it work at International level?

Very difficult I imagine when you factor in Rice and Bellingham now but if we could find a system that allows it, you would like to think it would give us a great chance of winning a tournament at last if we can dominate the midfield a bit more.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Lucas

[Danny]

On 11/06/2023 at 18:33, Lucas said:

I was reading an article earlier about how pivitol John Stones has been to City's success this season moving into that midfield role he does.

Got me thinking. There's him thriving in that position as well as Trent whwn he plays that hybrid role for Liverpool. Both talented players who really excel when on the ball.

Is there any way we could make it work at International level?

Very difficult I imagine when you factor in Rice and Bellingham now but if we could find a system that allows it, you would like to think it would give us a great chance of winning a tournament at last if we can dominate the midfield a bit more.

I think one thing that Gareth loves is defensive solidity, so if we can find a way to have Rice, Trent and Stones all holding at various points then he’ll definitely try. Would make us difficult to break down and with Trent’s delivery great on the counter.

Pickford

Walker - Stones - Colwill

Trent - Bellingham - Rice - Chilwell

Saka - Kane - Foden

 

Maybe something like that where Stones can drive forward, Rice can sit back, Trent can invert into a central position, Chilwell burst on and Bellingham push on too.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Should Jordan Beheaderson still be called up to the England squad? He seems to think he should still be called up.

[Danny]

Quality of the league can’t be that great. Southgate has generally hesitated picking players who play outside of the Prem, you’d think he might now

[Stan]

Squad for games against Ukraine and Scotland

 

Johnstone, Pickford, Ramsdale 

Maguire, Chilwell, Colwill, Dunk, Guehi, Tomori, Trippier, Walker 

Alexander-Arnold, Bellingham, Gallagher, Henderson, Phillips, Rice

Eze, Foden, Grealish, Maddison, Nketiah, Rashford, Saka, Wilson, Kane

[Stan]

How the fuck are Phillips and Maguire in, when they've not played a minute this season? 

[Danny]

20 minutes ago, Stan said:

How the fuck are Phillips and Maguire in, when they've not played a minute this season? 

Phillips is our only other defensive midfielder…until we produce more we’re just left with Rice and Phillips. Maguire is the only experienced centre back at international level in that list.